It's a mess

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It's a mess

Postby Trilerc on Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:47 pm

At first, the kde version seemed to be just what I was looking for, but I just can't keep using it. The visual appearance is great, but I hate the setup. There are SO MANY applications I will never need, and I shouldn't have to start using a distro by deleting half of the programs.
First of all, has anyone ever, in any part of the world used Krusader? Why do I need another program when I already have Konqueror that can do the very same thing Krusader does?
KRegExpEditor? What does that do? If someone wants to use it, they can install it afterwards. Why am I forced to take this application from the start?
I also have stuff like a partition editor, a "Quake-style terminal emulator", a personal FINANCE manager, a separate program just for CD:s, a program for stitching photos together, "graphic page layout and publication" program and a vector graphic thingie. Here's just a part of the programs that should be optional. I see no reason for these to be here, as most of the people will not be using them.
The tasty menu is not a good choise. It's too big, and resising it makes it a mess.

I think this distro has a good start. It's great to have the compiz configuration program at default and the visual appearance is great. I just think that by getting rid of the unneeded programs this could be fitted to a CD and it would be alot more user friendly. Now it's just a mess that tries to give everyone everything right from the start. It just isn't workng
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Re: It's a mess

Postby Husse on Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:43 pm

Oh I think it's working :)
This is one of the focal points of KDE I think - there's lots of applications by default.
Some think of it as wonderful, others - like you - consider it bloat
It's a matter of taste
Unfortunately getting the normal KDE edition on a CD may be hard, there are by necessity a few more apps in KDE and the main edition is close to the size limit.....
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Re: It's a mess

Postby rec9140 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:49 pm

Trilerc wrote:....it's just a mess that tries to give everyone everything right from the start. It just isn't workng


Well I have to vehemently disagree.

I think its great and needs more apps from the start.

Linux Mint KDE is the reason:

1) My personal desktop has been switched
2) My business laptop is using the live dvd till I get a USB drive setup for booting
3) My business desktop is run full time on LM KDE via VMWare (unfortunately there is some things that just don't exist on the Linux side for my work)

Since I am the IT department and alot of what my office depends on is web based via two Red Hat servers, there is alot of incentive to swap out winslop for probably 90% of the office. I function nearly 95% on a daily basis in LM KDE for work, and not a person is the wiser. They don't understand why things print out just a little different, but I edit files from the office suite they use on a shared samba drive with out a hitch.

I only had to add one program to the DVD install that I absolutely need... KMail I don't care for or use either dodobird or firecrap.

Theres plenty of things I would like to see added, but I won't say that things are a mess and its not working.

Linux Mint KDE is one of the few Linux distros that has allowed me to migrate pretty seamlessly from winslop to Linux permanently. Had there not been a KDE version of Mint I would probably be using Mepis as it was a close race between the two.

The deciding factor:

What was already installed in the DVD from the start.

So I for one am thrilled with whats on the DVD and WANT MORE. Are there things I won't use, yes. That quake terminal is one of them, should it be removed. NO WAY, some one may find it useful.

The more on the DVD the better. Less things people have to add later and try to get working when they fail.
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Re: It's a mess

Postby Trilerc on Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:10 am

I think people should get to choose what they want to install and not. And I'm not saying we should delete the browser and everything else with it, but I don't think things that are only used by a small percentage of users really needs to be installed automatically. Ok, it's good that they have that stuff on the DVD, but why can't the install process be like in SuSE, where you can choose the programs you want to be installed during the installation? It really can't be hard to do, and it would add a great way for the user to choose only the programs they want.
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Re: It's a mess

Postby rec9140 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:53 am

Trilerc wrote:I think people should get to choose what they want to install and not. And I'm not saying we should delete the browser and everything else with it, but I don't think things that are only used by a small percentage of users really needs to be installed automatically. Ok, it's good that they have that stuff on the DVD, but why can't the install process be like in SuSE, where you can choose the programs you want to be installed during the installation? It really can't be hard to do, and it would add a great way for the user to choose only the programs they want.


I guess were just going to have to agree to disagree as I don't see it that way, and one of the reasons why?

One of the biggest problems linux in general has is: Program installation.

The various package systems have greatly improved upon this, but until linux has a 100% fool proof 100% the time install process it turns alot of people off, especially converts.

I could care less about the source code and compiling. I've done my days of compiling from an ancient PDP8e to 68HC11 microcontrollers to various things on the PC. I've got better things to do with my time than compile software to run on my PC. I need to DL, install, and get things done. I've got enough to code for SQL db issues at work, I don't need more compile issues on software I need to get work or pleasure stuff done or try to solve why this or that doesn't work because this or that lib or what ever is not installed, is not compatible and then breaks 50 other programs.

The more stuff thats installed and ready to go is the better route in my opinion, and again its why Linux Mint is on my desktop and what I use. Theres plenty of stuff on the DVD that I won't use, theres plenty more I think should be there that I will use. Each has its place and I am not going to say this or that should be removed UNLESS we are going to draw a line and say "CD only." If thats the case then I have a good list of what needs to be in and what needs to be out. Gimp is useless to those not of the photoshop crowd, as an example.

One program for this or that doesn't cut it.

I don't use dodobird or firecrap, I think they are the two worst programs on the planet. I use KMail and Konqueror and matter of fact I am pretty steadfast on it. I check sites in Konqueror if works there, its done. Breaks winslop browsers, or other browsers too bad. If your site won't work on Konqueror I move on to another site that does. I just detest firecrap I am tired of hearing about it. Should it be deleted? No. I am sure some one may find them useful even if I don't.

More is better in this case the way I see it.
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Re: It's a mess

Postby lancern on Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:44 pm

What you call a mess..I call the best distro's I have tried..(mint kde and xfce both)
I have mainly tried K/Xubuntu in the past and always got frustrated and gone back to windose..
But that has not been the case with Mint.. :D
Sure theres alot of apps ill prob never use but so what..if I need more HD space ill uninstall them..
otherwise there not hurting anything..
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Re: It's a mess

Postby sundayrefugee on Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:55 pm

The "everything AND the kitchen sink" approach has long been a KDE hallmark ;-) It sounds like you should know better, given your credentials, but try almost any of the top KDE distros, and you'll notice the same thing: Mepis, Etch, even Fedora (in fact, Fedora is probably "the worst", if you want to call it that) - I mean, the only "lean" shipping KDE distros I can think of, in wide use, are Kubuntu and PCLOS 2008 MiniMe (<-which isn't a fair comparison, because it's *supposed* to be a barebones tech preview).
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Re: It's a mess

Postby ed@Mint on Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:13 pm

One more post going in rec9140 and lancern way...

First i'd like to recall that the main purpose of Linux Mint is to provide a fully operating desktop out-of-the-box. It is thus oubvious that it come with many apps by default.
Is your hard drive so small that a few megabytes for a few unneeded apps are a real issue ?

Otherwise, going your way and beyond the applications, there are a LOT of stuff you wont need in Linux... For instance, will you need the python interpreter ? The ruby compiler ? The wacom drivers ? And the list can be quite long.
There are many distros out there (like Debian or DSL f.i.) that allow you to install a basic OS and then let you choose only the required softwares.

I'd like to add a final word about Yakuake (the quake-style terminal). If you get to using the terminal quite often, then i definitely recommend you to give yakuake a try !
It is a console you access from one shortcut on your keyboard and rolls down from the top of your screen. Super fast and comfortable ! :) (it also has lots of other features such as tabs, windows splitting, to name just a few)
Once i had tried it, i could never leave that thing away.

Hope you'll stick to Mint anyway :wink:
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Re: It's a mess

Postby sundayrefugee on Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:28 pm

Really, following that "why are there (X) apps included...?" logic to the end, does it really make sense to include a Desktop Environment? There's nothing you can't do at the command line that you can do in a GUI, and almost always faster, stabler, and with only a tiny fraction of the system resources ;-) Vim, EMACS, Lynx, Sox, alsamixer, hundreds of other, more capable apps. No need to clutter up a CD with all of those GUI-related programs :lol: :wink:
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Re: It's a mess

Postby rfpa on Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:49 pm

Trilerc wrote:At first, the kde version seemed to be just what I was looking for, but I just can't keep using it. The visual appearance is great, but I hate the setup. There are SO MANY applications I will never need, and I shouldn't have to start using a distro by deleting half of the programs.
First of all, has anyone ever, in any part of the world used Krusader? Why do I need another program when I already have Konqueror that can do the very same thing Krusader does?
KRegExpEditor? What does that do? If someone wants to use it, they can install it afterwards. Why am I forced to take this application from the start?
I also have stuff like a partition editor, a "Quake-style terminal emulator", a personal FINANCE manager, a separate program just for CD:s, a program for stitching photos together, "graphic page layout and publication" program and a vector graphic thingie. Here's just a part of the programs that should be optional. I see no reason for these to be here, as most of the people will not be using them.
The tasty menu is not a good choise. It's too big, and resising it makes it a mess.

I think this distro has a good start. It's great to have the compiz configuration program at default and the visual appearance is great. I just think that by getting rid of the unneeded programs this could be fitted to a CD and it would be alot more user friendly. Now it's just a mess that tries to give everyone everything right from the start. It just isn't workng


Have you ever tried Sabayon Linux? That's what I would call really a mess!! It's not even comparable to Mint Kde in terms of installed programs. I think Mint Kde is well balanced. :)
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Re: It's a mess

Postby locutus on Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:47 pm

Well, I for one use krusader extensively; I would delete konqueror before I got rid of krusader. It's THE first app I install when trying out a new distro. You prefer konqueror? Fine, but leave my krusader alone.
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Re: It's a mess

Postby sundayrefugee on Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:35 pm

rfpa wrote:
Trilerc wrote:At first, the kde version seemed to be just what I was looking for, but I just can't keep using it. The visual appearance is great, but I hate the setup. There are SO MANY applications I will never need, and I shouldn't have to start using a distro by deleting half of the programs.
First of all, has anyone ever, in any part of the world used Krusader? Why do I need another program when I already have Konqueror that can do the very same thing Krusader does?
KRegExpEditor? What does that do? If someone wants to use it, they can install it afterwards. Why am I forced to take this application from the start?
I also have stuff like a partition editor, a "Quake-style terminal emulator", a personal FINANCE manager, a separate program just for CD:s, a program for stitching photos together, "graphic page layout and publication" program and a vector graphic thingie. Here's just a part of the programs that should be optional. I see no reason for these to be here, as most of the people will not be using them.
The tasty menu is not a good choise. It's too big, and resising it makes it a mess.

I think this distro has a good start. It's great to have the compiz configuration program at default and the visual appearance is great. I just think that by getting rid of the unneeded programs this could be fitted to a CD and it would be alot more user friendly. Now it's just a mess that tries to give everyone everything right from the start. It just isn't workng


Have you ever tried Sabayon Linux? That's what I would call really a mess!! It's not even comparable to Mint Kde in terms of installed programs. I think Mint Kde is well balanced. :)


ROFL!! And if you think *that's* a mess, try Emerging in the normal Gentoo way, or setting use flags and recompiling your system.

*That's* a mess - Sabayon style ;-)
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Re: It's a mess

Postby brando569 on Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:11 am

gentoo is a major PITA i tried to install it atleast 4 times and have never gotten a GUI just a cmd line system, im kind of with the OP on the bloated system, ive only had it installed (in a vm) for about an hour and im already in love with it, ill try the lite edition also and see how that fares. i have a feeling mint kde is going to permanently replace kubuntu.... as long as i can get rid of that "tasty" menu, that thing is god awful!
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Re: It's a mess

Postby sundayrefugee on Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:07 am

Aye, Gentoo can be a PITA. It's a great system once you know *exactly* what you're doing, but one misstep, one character missing in a command, can seriously bork your setup. I grew tired of compile times, but it was an *incredible* learning experience. Stage3ing yourself out of your chroot and finally into a desktop environment is a great feeling of accomplishment, and somehow there's a nice sense that when you install something onto your system, it's compiled to your *exact* specifications, custom. I think where most people go wrong with Gentoo is in preparedness. Unless it's your 11th time doing it, you really have to have the guides, manuals, etc... printed out beforehand, or have some other access to them. Trying to "wing it" or "going on memory", until you've become an old hand, pretty much leads to utter disaster :-( Not saying that's *your* case at all, mate, just my general observations of people at large ;-)

But, there's nothing like Gentoo or LFS to make you appreciate the efforts of people like Ubuntu, PCLOS, Fedora, OpenSuSE, Mepis, etc... and of course, Mint, who provide that experience "out of the box".
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Re: It's a mess

Postby kevmille on Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:06 pm

sundayrefugee wrote:
But, there's nothing like Gentoo or LFS to make you appreciate the efforts of people like Ubuntu, PCLOS, Fedora, OpenSuSE, Mepis, etc... and of course, Mint, who provide that experience "out of the box".


I love Gentoo and will probably always be a user. Gentoo and LM can live hand in hand as well. Today I took the xorg.conf generated by LM on my desktop and got it workings when I decided to install Gentoo 2008.0_beta1. Yeah, I was lazy but if it works...
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Re: It's a mess

Postby sundayrefugee on Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:01 am

kevmille wrote:
sundayrefugee wrote:
But, there's nothing like Gentoo or LFS to make you appreciate the efforts of people like Ubuntu, PCLOS, Fedora, OpenSuSE, Mepis, etc... and of course, Mint, who provide that experience "out of the box".


I love Gentoo and will probably always be a user. Gentoo and LM can live hand in hand as well. Today I took the xorg.conf generated by LM on my desktop and got it workings when I decided to install Gentoo 2008.0_beta1. Yeah, I was lazy but if it works...


Gentoo will always be a great disto. It's just not for the beginner, the faint of heart, or the easily frustrated :lol: I don't have anything *against* Gentoo at all - as I said, it taught me a great deal, and without it I would never have been able to LFS. But once life (read kids, work, etc...) caught up to me, a "just works" binary distro became a better choice for me *personally*, and as I said, there's nothing like stage3ing yourself out of a chroot to realize the efforts that people like Clem, Boo, etc... put in to make these distros "just work". But I meant no disrespect towards Gentoo, and I'm sorry and apologize if such was implied. It's just not the ideal match to my lifestyle anymore ;-)
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Re: It's a mess

Postby Husse on Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:00 am

I have not played with Gentoo (time....) but it's not the distro that will make Linux a main contender for the desktop. People in general have computers to use them, not to install and compile
That said Gentoo is as far as I know a very nice distro, but it has it's niche
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Re: It's a mess

Postby Fred on Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:32 am

Gentoo was my first real exposure to Linux. Well Slackware too but thats another story.

I look at Gentoo now and think, "what a great learning experience." It is like going to an advanced class of some kind that's always just a little bit ahead of you; that you can't quite keep up with.

If you wanted to dedicate three months of your life to learn as much as possible about Linux, I can't think of a better place to do it than the Gentoo forums. The first month I would suggest you not post at all. Read every thread that you could and research what you read, and learn about it. After the first month you can start asking a few questions to help fill in the blanks. But you will be expected to work hard, and you won't be spoon feed. By the end of the third month you will feel like you have been brain washed. Your head will hurt all the time. lol

But you will have learned a great deal.

I take things slow and easy now. Gentoo is just too much work for me. I have gotten lazy. :-)

But what a ride!

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Re: It's a mess

Postby Cubby on Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:39 am

Hi,

I just poked in to this forum as a friend told me about Linux Mint 4.0 CE he really enjoys, and has given him no hassles, compared to what I am going through with recent trials of ubuntu feisty fawn and kubuntu gutsy gibbon - so I'm looking for something more stable. Last year I was using Simply Mepis and that was the least buggy of the LINUX distros I have used.

I wanted to mention that the numerous KDE applications that come installed are one of the things I like about the KDE desktop, and someone mentioned long ago that having all these choices doesn't exactly compare to having bloat installed on Windows, and having to go through it and disable this and remove that. The first question I asked at the mepis board was how to remove all of the unneeded programs, as I was still in the Windows state of mind. After a while I began to use some of those programs I thought I would never need.

I guess a another way to have the install of an OS is to allow the user to pick and choose during the installation process, but since there are so many applications out there, this could take up too much time and could be confusing to the new LINUX user.

When I installed ubuntu feisty fawn for the first time, I felt lost because many applications I would have liked to have installed were not - such as an easy way to get my dial up modem set up. I ended up having to use my other computer to finally find a small terminal program called wvdial. Later, I installed KPPP.

This looks to be an insteresting OS, and I will ask my husband to download it for me, as he has a fast cable modem at work.

Regards!
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Re: It's a mess

Postby arjay on Sat May 17, 2008 6:35 am

I usually remove a whole heap of stuff when I first install a distro - if only from the menu. But, where I also remove stuff from the HDD, even using apt-get, it is still a long-winded process.

Now, IIUC the new Mint (5.0) will allow you to uninstall with one click on the menu item. If this is so, and works correctly, it will be fantastic. I can slim down the HDD and greatly improve the menu in just a few minutes.... roll on :P
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