Mint 13 XFCE

[sunewbie]

@MikeF90000,

Keyboard launchers are not bad. They increase work efficiency. I have installed synapse. Yesterday, I was typing a doc in writer, which I saved and closed it. Later I typed the file in synapse and it was displayed, waiting me to hit enter. So no need to go behind menus.

The problem is that these devs are seeing a lot of un-tapped marketed, not dominated by M$ in the world of touch screen. Google made Linux famous and importantly made average Joe and Jill aware of it. With people falling pray to 'Smart Phone Syndrome' companies started thinking to explore this syndrome and make apps that mimic or are close relatives to the ones used in Smart phones / Tablets, ebook readers or in general any touch screen devices. So Gnome 3 spreads icons all over the desktop. Not need for Desktop, but better for touch screen. Those big icon (recently removed from UNITY 5.2) help touch screen device users, by minimizing false clicks to wrong icons. But are they needed for Desktop PC? UNITY existed before 11.04, but only for Netbooks. It may suits small 10'' screens, but how does it look on 20'' monitor? Work can be done, they are not unusable, but are not optimized and hence not comfortable for Desktop computing. Canonical is listening to it;s users and it is improving update-by-update.

Extending word Traditional, according to me, it includes, not to spend too much time or PC / Smart Phone / Tablet and specially ebook reader. Hard copy is a good option to take a break from staring at your Monitor and idiot box (TV). This change like reading books, saying with nature are much needed in todays life.

Coming back to topic, these companies are designing DE keeping touch screen as priority and trying to cover Traditional desktop computer.

As such nothing wrong with their goals and earning money, but like in e-age, net age, vintage newspapers are still going strong, traditional PC, IMO, will stay and hold it's place.

Laptop, IMO, was introduced as a presentation tool and it can extend its usefulness in case of travelling, specially to marketing people and useful for presentation in client office and in Exhibitions (trade fair). Later for net freeks, there was iphone and then tablet and e-reader. I do not own any one of them. Not even a mobile phone, believe me. I personally feel, there is need to slow down and so I have not allowed myself to be drowned in e-current / touch current. Talking about health hazards are beyond the scope of this topic.

[sunewbie]

Right now i'm still using Mint 10. When i'm gonna upgrade in spring i'm hesitating between the main Mint 13 with Cinnamon or LMDE with XFCE. If an Ubuntu-based XFCE distro would exist, that would be my choice for sure!

If you are not a tech geek, then LMDX is not a good choice as on today. Till, Clem himself does not announce that LMDE is fairly stable and safe for end users, you think twice before installing. If you go for it, it should not be the only distro.

If you re going for LMDE because of XFCE, then, like @KBD47 (and many others), install XFCE in LM 13 along with Cinnamon.

You will need to spend sometime installing / uninstalling apps, but end of the day, IMO, it is a better choice.

No matter if you install Ubuntu and then install XFCE, tweak it and add / remove stuff, or you install Xubuntu, remove abiword, and other lighter apps (if you do not like them, lighter does not mean inferior) and then add gnome apps like libreoffice, it takes almost same time. So either ways, if you want XFCE, you to have to spend time after installation, unless we get LM 13 XFCE based on Ubuntu.

The problem with both methods is that you get 2 apps like 2 terminals, 2 file managers, 2 doc editors, etc. So there i work to be done after installation. LM 13 XFCE based on Ubuntu saves time, work, and MBs, hence it is better choice, if you want XFCE on full fledged desktop.

[Bill Lariviere]

[quote="sunewbie"
If you are not a tech geek, then LMDX is not a good choice as on today. Till, Clem himself does not announce that LMDE is fairly stable and safe for end users, you think twice before installing. If you go for it, it should not be the only distro.[/quote]
This is what i suspected after reading the release notes. Thanks for confirming! So the choice for Cinnamon or Mate is obvious ... for now.

[KBD47]

[quote="sunewbie"
If you are not a tech geek, then LMDX is not a good choice as on today. Till, Clem himself does not announce that LMDE is fairly stable and safe for end users, you think twice before installing. If you go for it, it should not be the only distro.

This is what i suspected after reading the release notes. Thanks for confirming! So the choice for Cinnamon or Mate is obvious ... for now.[/quote]

If they ever put out a new iso with the correct repositories set, LMDX will be mostly user friendly. It is not hard to install, but there are a few things you have to do to get it fully functional. A few things that come to mind: you have to uncheck the gstreamer update and run the other updates, then you can check and run the gstreamer updates. Not sure why that is a bug but it is. You have to set the theme to 'clearlooks' or you won't be able to right click on files and have functionality. Right off the bat you must change your repositories--a big no-no for newbies.
All those things are fairly easy fixes and I sincerely hope they will put out a new iso free of those problems soon. If you are willing to fix those things you can use the LMDX OS and have a solid operating system. I think we are all waiting to see how the huge update packages from latest are going to affect us. If the updates bork people's systems I will change my repositores to Debian Stable. That will pretty much freeze my system, but my Debian Mint installs are working good and I have no desire to break them.
KBD47

[Lumikki]

I don't know.

Polishing what we have could be better than have other new work load. I don't really much care is there under KDE, Gnome or XFCE. I'm more interested the desktop it self as how it looks and works. So, I think developers can them self deside what kind of enviroment they like to work with. I like Cinnamon desktop a lot and I think in general all Mints have been very stable "newbie" friendly product. Good selection softwares, as what people would choose anyway.

[ddalley]

@ ddalley I hope Mint devs will provide network ready XFCE (if they at all make XFCE edition, fingers crossed)

The one thing that I had hoped for from any family of Linux distributions (LM, Fedora, Ubuntu, etc.) was consistency between its own distros. We don't get that, but that kind of leadership should come from the distro's umbrella organisation.

If something as important as SAMBA works properly in one family's distro, I expect the same user experience in all of them. SAMBA is there for a reason, so fulfill it - consistently.

[ddalley]

The problem with both methods is that you get 2 apps like 2 terminals, 2 file managers, 2 doc editors, etc. So there i work to be done after installation. LM 13 XFCE based on Ubuntu saves time, work, and MBs, hence it is better choice, if you want XFCE on full fledged desktop.

While there is always work necessary to customise a new Linux install, I want to support a distribution that lessens this work in the long haul, therefore I want to use a stable rolling release, so that means not Ubuntu. However, the Debian-based versions have been pretty stable, for me, and I am so glad that LM decided to go this route (as much as they have)!

I want to rely upon and use my choice of OS, not have to grow old re-installing new distros until I get gray hair (Ooops, well, that didn't happen...).

[KBD47]

You know I have never gone through and removed all the extra stuff when I install an extra desktop. I just pick and choose the apps I want as I need them. Sometimes this actually works better, like having better apps available for a LXDE install. The only thing I have run into is when having both Thunar and Nautilus I will need to choose the file manager when I click on files for the first time after an install. It would probably be tidier to remove the stuff. The psychocats web site explains how to do this if you really want to completely replace one Ubuntu based distro desktop with another desktop.
KBD47

[gn2]

Sometimes when you try to remove unwanted stuff from a new desktop you run into dependency problems.
I just edit unwanted items out of the menu but leave the packages in place.

[KBD47]

Sometimes when you try to remove unwanted stuff from a new desktop you run into dependency problems.
I just edit unwanted items out of the menu but leave the packages in place.

If I remember correctly, once when I completely removed a desktop it also removed and broke some apps that I had to turn around and replace.

[sunewbie]

@KBD47 and @gn2


What you say is right.

Alternatively, instead of Meta package, you can install XFCE or LXDE.

Regarding unwanted apps or broken dependency issue, you can run synaptic and repair broken packages, but this should not happen, but it happens.

@ddalley

I like debian based rolling distros. But if the update pack, which you get after 3-4 months is 1/2 or 3/4 the size of distro, then there is little difference between 'ubuntu's upgrade' option and 'rolling' or installing fresh distro.

It is better to download the new distro version which is optimized for new versions of everything, tested by dev team, after 1 year or maybe 1 1/2 year, if you are patient then from LTS to LTS and you are not 'I want latest app' freek, then things should work out smooth.

If you do not intend to learn to pile out layers, then trouble shooting may take as much time as installing a fresh distro. In this case you will have to download a latest ISO image, same as in non-rolling distro.

I am not apt with more details of rolling and non-rolling distro so please correct me or explain me the importance of rolling distro.

[ddalley]

I have not used rolling releases long enough to recognise any long-term problems yet. The theory, as I see it, is that I won't have to deal with completely replacing old distros, as time marches on. Hopefully, I will have enough decades left on this Earth to test the theory well.

[KBD47]

I like rolling release in theory, but I'm not convinced it is for me. True rolling release in Debian is running Debian Sid, not Testing. In about 6 months or less the current Debian Testing goes into lockdown. I just don't see that as rolling. After a bit of self-debate I decided to point my Debian Mint installs to Debian Stable repositories.
KBD47

[gn2]

I think "rolling release" is a solution in search of a problem.
Personally I quite enjoy a total clearout every two years or so, keeps everything nice and fresh.

[sunewbie]

I have not used rolling releases long enough to recognise any long-term problems yet. The theory, as I see it, is that I won't have to deal with completely replacing old distros, as time marches on. Hopefully, I will have enough decades left on this Earth to test the theory well.

Long live ddalley. Practically, 2-3 years exp should be fine enough to give an opinion

@KBD47

IMO, a sensible decision, if you want peace of mind. Maybe,experimenting same distro in virtualbox can try to balance your 'urge for rolling release' and 'stability' or maybe 2 copies installed with different username may be a fun ride

[MikeF90000]

Keyboard launchers are not bad. They increase work efficiency.

That's your opinion, we have to agree to disagree for usefulness on desktop platforms.
An 'app finder' could be useful on a smartphone with a small touchscreen and 'well known' apps. OTOH on a Linux DE it will find all of the obscure packages (see any default menu) that are installed by default and rarely used. I've seen this behavior in gnome-shell and unity and am Not amused.

I have installed synapse. Yesterday, I was typing a doc in writer, which I saved and closed it. Later I typed the file in synapse and it was displayed, waiting me to hit enter. So no need to go behind menus.

Thanks for the tip. I installed and tried it, it found apps but didn't find any 'documents' in my home folder - maybe a man page read is in order.

The problem is that these devs are seeing a lot of un-tapped marketed, not dominated by M$ in the world of touch screen.

IMO, Canonical is way too late to the party. I wish them well, but Google and Apple own this space right now; M$ is muscling in by 'buying' Nokia space and trying to lock down Windows 8 ARM platforms. Oops, almost forgot Tizen and webOS. I have no idea what 'Ken Kesey kool-aid' the Gnome devs or their unnamed sponsors are drinking.

EDIT - here's a pic of my lean, clean xfce 4.8 desktop layout

[sunewbie]

That's your opinion, we have to agree to disagree for usefulness on desktop platforms.
An 'app finder' could be useful on a smartphone with a small touchscreen and 'well known' apps. OTOH on a Linux DE it will find all of the obscure packages (see any default menu) that are installed by default and rarely used. I've seen this behavior in gnome-shell and unity and am Not amused.

Definitely, it is personal opinion. Agree to disagree peacefully.

Thanks for the tip. I installed and tried it, it found apps but didn't find any 'documents' in my home folder - maybe a man page read is in order.

You open a doc after installing and enabling synapse i.e. synapse should launch at startup. check the preferences, by right clicking on top bar. Technically synapse is always running (you can see it's icon in panel. shortcut key just brings it to the front. Now create a mock doc 'testmike.odt' or 'I like synapse' and then close it (after saving it). then type 'testmike' or 'I like synapse'. Before you complete typing full name it synapse should give you an option. Else push <down arrow> key to see some options or click documents option. The partition in which you have saved ODT file or any file should be mounted

EDIT - here's a pic of my lean, clean xfce 4.8 desktop layout

Nice desktop. XFCE v 4.8 has doc and top panel by default. I have flipped top and bottom panels. I hardly use dock. I use synapse more often.

[sunewbie]

We have great brain storming response from fellow members with excellent inputs. 75 posts are too long to read. So I have tried to type the essence in the first post. Do let me know if I have missed anything.

We would like to have:

1) Mint 13 LTS XFCE based on Ubuntu and not Xubuntu. (Only LTS version of other flavours like KDE and XFCE.) Why can't XFCE be used as DE for Modern desktop?

2) Prefer and happy to use More Polished LMDX (LM Debian Edition XFCE) than Ubuntu based edition and hope that Clem will announce it as reasonably safe / stable for general use.

3) Prefer LMDE based on Debian Stable with Official backports enabled. (Like Saline OS, but with Mint Freshness)

4) Prefer LMDE based on Debian Stable with Official backports enabled, *but would like to have latest software.
(*Seems contradictory)

5) Atleast have Mint-XFCE-DE in repos without softwares. i.e. just preconfigured XFCE with just file manager and no or minimum software.

6) Mint-XFCE-meta-package in repos, having XFCE + selected softwares.

General opinion (not limited but applicable to XFCE edition):

7) Considering the size of Dev Team, having too many editions will do more harm then help.

Maintaining too many editions and releasing new version every 6 months is very difficult and tedious.

So either

Reduce number of editions

or

extend the release schedule

Extending release schedule will help ease out maintenance. Have only LTS version of other editions. Maintaining one distro version at a time.

9) Have only two versions i.e. one before LTS (just when current stable edition is about to reach EOL (End Of Life) maybe after 15-18 months or have non-LTS version before 6 months of LTS version). This Non-LTS version will help phase out any bugs making LTS version very stable.

e.g. Mint 8 and Mint 9 followed by Mint 12 and Mint 13 for all editions except main flagship edition.

[MikeF90000]

We have great brain storming response from fellow members with excellent inputs. 75 posts are too long to read. So I have tried to type the essence in the first post. Do let me know if I have missed anything.
We would like to have: .. snip ..
3) Prefer LMDE based on Debian Stable with Official backports enabled. (Like Saline OS, but with Mint Freshness)
4) Prefer LMDE based on Debian Stable with Official backports enabled, *but would like to have latest software.
(*Seems contradictory) .. snip ...

Good points. However ....

An XFCE v4.8 backport to Debian Stable (current=Squeeze) might be another huge effort. Agree that LM (and XFCE) devs are spread thin enough, so I'm happy with the current rolling release. I won't go back to Squeeze with XFCE v4.6!!

Unfortunately, Debian Testing (current=Wheezy) is scheduled for 'freezing' this June and probably won't be released 'stable' until next year. Arrgghh!! This means that the (new, possibly different, possibly less stable) GTK3 version of XFCE (4.10) won't be included. Maybe no big deal ...

Need to research the app 'ignore update' feature of Mint Update (under Edit-->Preferences) further. Is this unique to Mint? If so, Major Applause! It appears to be a good way to preserve stable, critical apps in a rolling release.

Likewise, is there a user friendly (GUI) way to 'go back' to a previous version of a package? I haven't had this issue, yet ....
Sorry to be slightly off topic

[sunewbie]

Good points. However ....

An XFCE v4.8 backport to Debian Stable (current=Squeeze) might be another huge effort. Agree that LM (and XFCE) devs are spread thin enough, so I'm happy with the current rolling release. I won't go back to Squeeze with XFCE v4.6!!

Unfortunately, Debian Testing (current=Wheezy) is scheduled for 'freezing' this June and probably won't be released 'stable' until next year. Arrgghh!! This means that the (new, possibly different, possibly less stable) GTK3 version of XFCE (4.10) won't be included. Maybe no big deal ...

Sorry to be slightly off topic

Well, if you are not fanatic about having newest softwares and latest version of DE and older apps work for you, i.e. you can happily live with older softwares, then debian is with you. Debian gives highest importance to stability and so even versions are freezed upto six months ( like squeeze was freezed and wheezy will be freezed for around 6 months). To use Debian, the way it should be, you should adapt it's culture, it's way of working.

Need to research the app 'ignore update' feature of Mint Update (under Edit-->Preferences) further. Is this unique to Mint? If so, Major Applause! It appears to be a good way to preserve stable, critical apps in a rolling release.

I tried Ubuntu based distros and I have not found 'ignore apps' feature in Ubuntu or it's derivatives, except Mint. Don't know about other distros.

Likewise, is there a user friendly (GUI) way to 'go back' to a previous version of a package? I haven't had this issue, yet ....

Not to my knowledge. Use synaptic. It also has older version of softwares. XFCE 4.8 went into testing part by part, first the file manager thunar, then panels, etc.