Release Candidate: Linux Mint 5 Fluxbox CE RC1

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Release Candidate: Linux Mint 5 Fluxbox CE RC1

Postby clem on Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:34 pm

Linux Mint 5 Fluxbox Community Edition RC1 is out and available for download. I hope you'll be numerous to test it and we'll receive plenty of feedback.

Please find all relevant information about this release at this address: http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_elyssa_fluxbox.php

I'd also like to thank and congratulate Shane Joe Lazar for maintaining this edition and for the quality of this release.

Have fun with it and don't forget to give us feedback by replying to this thread.

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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby shane on Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:25 pm

Thanks and congratulations are also in order for Merlwiz79 and Exploder without whom this release would not have been possible!

I hope everyone enjoys this release!
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby szamot83 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 1:13 am

Great news, I can't wait to release final version.
Thanks for your job.

I was looking for system requirements of this system. Could you tell me, what are they?


Sorry for my English.
Best regards.
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby shane on Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:16 am

szamot83 wrote:Great news, I can't wait to release final version.
Thanks for your job.

I was looking for system requirements of this system. Could you tell me, what are they?


Sorry for my English.
Best regards.


[*]Your main concern here will be RAM. It should be able to run fairly well on a computer with 128MB of RAM, however, installation on such a machine without a pre-configured swap partition will be very slow. You could turn off unnecessary services and processes to speed things up or better, pre-configure a swap partition. I would suggest 256MB RAM as the recommend minimum for an easy installation.

[*]Processor: Any Intel compatible processor should work just fine. I would recommend anything above a Pentium 2.
[*]Hard drive space: Somewhere around 2 GB.
[*]VGA graphics card capable of 640x480 resolution
[*]CD-ROM drive

The weakest actual machine I have tested this on is an Athlon XP 2000+ (1600MHz) machine with 256MB of SDRAM. The installation went smoothly and it is very responsive in normal usage. The rest have been virtual machines and they are not a reliable judge of performance.

Maybe you can try it out on your machine and let us know the outcome! :D
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby rogerdean on Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:02 am

Hello folks

Am delighted to stumble across this RC - am tempted to buy myself a really really old laptop just to feel smug using it... Great work

Two little points from first use...

1) Minimised apps sometimes don't appear in the lower bar, effectively disappearing. I can get them back with Alt-Tab thought

2) Fluxbox seems not to let you display anything on the desktop by default - because of this would it make more sense to have the single icon for Thunar point to home rather than the non-functional Desktop? Or maybe I'm missing something here...

Brilliant though - looking forward to the gold release

Allbest
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby Guest on Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:26 am

Actually, the Fluxbox bar seems to have stopped docking all windows now...
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby rogerdean on Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:40 am

Ah, false alarm. I'd messed up the bar's icon settings :oops: shows my inexperience with Fluxbox!
Cheers
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby shane on Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:02 am

if you mess up your fluxbox configurations simply delete the ~/.fluxbox directory in your home folder then log out and log in again.

you can do it like this.

-open a terminal
-run this command as normal user
rm -R ~/.fluxbox
-then press Ctrl+Alt+Backspace

that will take you to the login screen and when you login, the default settings will be copied over again.
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby szamot83 on Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:34 am

hello
My "test" is done.

I have installed this OS on Actina Neo laptop.
Duron 1 GHZ
384 Ram
S3 Twister (graphics)
CD rom - Teac DV-28E-B Max speed 28x.

Installation time (after configuring) - 28 min.
System start time (from GRUB, to GDM) - 1.20 min.
System start (from GDM, to system) - 20 sec.
Disk usage - 1.8 Gb
Memory usage - 110 - 120 Mb.

Funniest thing is, that memory usage is same as in XFCE edition. System, in my opinion, runs with the same speed like Xfce.

Problems.

1. When I start installing system without configuring Wi-fi card, installation stop in "getting time zone from server" moment. I was wait 15 min, and nothing.
2. When I try configure Wi-fi, in Wicd program (on live CD, before installation), i was experience program crush. First - program window was displayed, but it was blank. When I reboot system, and enter advanced settings to Wi-fi connection, program again stopped. Clicking on OK button gives nothing. In third try (after reboot) everything was ok.
3. After installation and using system about two minutes, my mouse gone crazy. Self booting apps, desktop switching - I could only press power button. I have no problems after installing XFCE version. After reboot system is working good, till now.
4 When I run LiveCD startup sound wan not played smoothly. (In my opinion it is useless option in LiveCD)
Missing:
In my opinion.
1. Sound control icon in tray is missing, it is very useful thing.
2 After installation network configuration was not copied from liveCD. I had to configure it one more time.
3 Reboot button - when I press it I must enter my password. (I know that I could change it, but it should be changed by default)
Thats all for now. If I found anything else I'll write about it.
Best regards.
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby shane on Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:05 pm

szamot83 wrote:Memory usage - 110 - 120 Mb.

Funniest thing is, that memory usage is same as in XFCE edition. System, in my opinion, runs with the same speed like Xfce.

Problems.

1. When I start installing system without configuring Wi-fi card, installation stop in "getting time zone from server" moment. I was wait 15 min, and nothing.
2. When I try configure Wi-fi, in Wicd program (on live CD, before installation), i was experience program crush. First - program window was displayed, but it was blank. When I reboot system, and enter advanced settings to Wi-fi connection, program again stopped. Clicking on OK button gives nothing. In third try (after reboot) everything was ok.
3. After installation and using system about two minutes, my mouse gone crazy. Self booting apps, desktop switching - I could only press power button. I have no problems after installing XFCE version. After reboot system is working good, till now.
4 When I run LiveCD startup sound wan not played smoothly. (In my opinion it is useless option in LiveCD)
Missing:
In my opinion.
1. Sound control icon in tray is missing, it is very useful thing.
2 After installation network configuration was not copied from liveCD. I had to configure it one more time.
3 Reboot button - when I press it I must enter my password. (I know that I could change it, but it should be changed by default)
Thats all for now. If I found anything else I'll write about it.
Best regards.


Hi!

Thanks for testing the RC. Let me see if I can answer some of the points you raised.

- The memory usage: I know that most Fluxbox based distros run very light when it comes to RAM usage but this comes with its own drawbacks. I was aiming for a Fluxbox based system that is as close as possible to a full-fledged desktop environment in terms of functionality. This meant that I had to run a number of services by default to provide for this. And since I do not have the expertise to write my own software I basically borrowed from XFCE while trying to keep it as light as possible. This is probably why you are getting similar figures for XFCE and Fluxbox. Of course you can turn off services that you do not use to keep resources usage low. However, I am not very sure that it uses 110-120MB. My tests showed RAM usage at boot with the default setup to be around 90MB. How did you come up with those numbers? Are you sure it does not include cached data?

1&2 - I have never had a problem installing without an internet connection after the OpenOffice bug was fixed. Are you sure your ISO and/or CD are without errors? Maybe this is a problem caused by using Wifi? I do not have access to Wifi to test this.

3 - This is a strange one... never had this one either. I can't think of a possible cause either apart from an error in X or a bad mouse. Is there anything interesting in your ~/.xsession-errors file? I guess we'll have to see if anyone else has this problem.

4 - I understand that some may feel that log in/out sounds are a bit frivolous for a Fluxbox distro but Linux Mint does have some criteria for all ISOs released under the Linux Mint banner. I think they help maintain the high level of quality and elegance that make Mint what it is. I know the log in sound can be a bit choppy while other stuff is loading on slower computers, but i think the effect still counts. :D

Your opinions:

1 - Yes, I know that a volume control would be nice to have. I so wanted to have one included myself and also Clem mentioned this prior to the RC release. However, I havent found a light and good looking app that will run in the system tray. The closest I have found is Gvtray but it depends on a lot of Gnome packages including Metacity. So that got dropped. If you know of any other light and good looking app for volume control in the system tray, please do let me know. In the end the price in resource use should be worth the gain.

2 - Thanks for letting me know about this. I will have to investigate further. All my connections are wired DHCP ones... so I just never noticed it.

3 - Quite a while back (many months ago) I did try to implement this. If I remember correctly the problem was that after installation, ubiquity adds some rules in the sudoers file and this prevents the 'no password' option from being in effect for shutdown. The only way I found to solve it is to change the sudoers after installation. And I did not want to take the risk of doing this automatically in case the sudoers file gets messed up. It's an even bigger headache than simply editing with visudo...

Thanks for your feedback!
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby szamot83 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:35 am

Hello.
Problems 1,2 & 3 - Don't bother of it. I think it's hardware problem, so this is my problem. This is polish laptop (of course made in china) and I always have some problems with it. I write about it becouse maybe someone will meet similar problems and write about it. If you don't have any bug report about it, than don't think about it..

I have read memory usage - first in conky, and then in Gnome system monitor. Of course I boot Mint, and run program (I was not running any other app). I have same results in both programs.

About Yours opinion about mine :) :
1 I think you could use Wmix to volume control. Its not in tray, but it provides some cool functions (mute, stereo etc.) and also it is installing without any dependences. What do you think about it?
Also I have research some sound mixers, becouse I have noticed you have used XFCE-Mixer. I found similar some programs witch could interest you.
Tkmixer - 1 dependence - TK8.4
Gamix - installed without any dependences
There is also pavucontrol, but after installation it gives me error.

What do you think about this:
1 Throw away GDM and install Slim in his place. Slim is lightest than GDM, and it will no install any useless dependences.
2 Throw away Gnome music player, and install Audacious in his place. It could be another music player, but this is very good and I think it not eat too much system resources.

I think that Linux Mint Fluxbox version should be Gnome, XFCE, KDE apps free. I know that this is hard work to do, but if you want I could help you with find light apps.

Best regards.
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby shane on Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:19 pm

szamot83 wrote:About Yours opinion about mine :) :
1 I think you could use Wmix to volume control. Its not in tray, but it provides some cool functions (mute, stereo etc.) and also it is installing without any dependences. What do you think about it?
Also I have research some sound mixers, becouse I have noticed you have used XFCE-Mixer. I found similar some programs witch could interest you.
Tkmixer - 1 dependence - TK8.4
Gamix - installed without any dependences
There is also pavucontrol, but after installation it gives me error.

What do you think about this:
1 Throw away GDM and install Slim in his place. Slim is lightest than GDM, and it will no install any useless dependences.
2 Throw away Gnome music player, and install Audacious in his place. It could be another music player, but this is very good and I think it not eat too much system resources.

I think that Linux Mint Fluxbox version should be Gnome, XFCE, KDE apps free. I know that this is hard work to do, but if you want I could help you with find light apps.

Best regards.


- Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAIK none of the apps you suggested for volume control run in the Fluxbox system tray. Wmix runs on the desktop layer but will be covered by any open windows and so we're kind of back at square one. I do not like the way it looks but if I have to add one, that will be it. Tkmixer and Gamix do not offer anything more than the XFCE mixer and they are not as pretty. Tkmixer is plain ugly...

- Replacing GDM has come up before but too much in Linux Mint depends and uses GDM. Dumping GDM means forking some Mint applications which in turn means more work to maintain packages. And right now the Mint team has already got plenty to do and not enough time and people.

- I did consider Audacious when I was selecting the default apps. However, MPD+GMPC beats Audacious (IMO) in 2 big ways: 1) MPD is the lightest audio player that has substantial features for Linux. Correct me if I am wrong. Even if you close GMPC, MPD will continue playing music using very little resources. And since it is a daemon running at system level and not by the user, even if X crashes MPD will not be affected. 2) I wanted the entire system to look as elegant as possible and this I why applications using GTK took preference. IMO it makes the system look good as one whole entity.

- Choosing light weight apps is only the tip f the iceberg :wink: It takes a lot more to get the whole system working well together. Now if we have a base in the Ubuntu repos with vastly more resources than we do, why not make use of it? Keep in mind that packages in the Ubuntu repos that are not officially supported are more likely to have bugs... and when they do, they are not fixed as quickly. Even the Xubuntu 8.04 final release, which is what I used as my base, had a bug that downloaded and installed OpenOffice during the system installation. This bug was only discovered while we were building Mint FB and it wasn't fixed until 8.04.1 after some friendly persuasion :lol: . We also had many problems with Firefox and Totem which are officially supported also. Right now maintaining our own repositories isn't an option. So you see, using things that already work is not such a bad thing :D

In any case, we have reached RC stage and changing the default application set is not an option. Your suggestions will be most welcome for the next release. And if you are interested, I could always use an extra hand on board!

Thanks again for your contribution :!:
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby szamot83 on Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:40 pm

You have right, and thats all. I don't want to irritate (or sth.) you. I have big respect for peoples who are doing things like you, and I'm sure that you know what you are doing. This was only suggestions, propositions.

shane wrote:And if you are interested, I could always use an extra hand on board!


I'm interested, but I don't know if I have sufficient knowledge.
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Boot stalls if USB flash stick plugged in

Postby rsammis on Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:17 pm

I experienced this very problem with the Elyssa XFCE release as well. It occurs only AFTER installing all software updates available via MintUpdate and Synaptic (using default repositories).

Following successful installation of these updates, neither Fluxbox RC1 nor XFCE Final will boot if a flash storage device (flash stick) is present at any USB port. Boot progress is halted and does not resume if the key is unplugged.

Booting in the recovery mode, I note that the flash key is correctly recognized and registered, but the boot halts about a dozen lines later at the beginning of CD-ROM drive detection. The system stll recognizes key removal and insertion (reported on screen) but the boot process just stops. Reboot with the key (any of my several) disconnected and Elyssa boots perfectly.

I must emphasize that this was not a problem in either release until the last "batch" of available software updates were installed using Synaptic (simply by clicking "Mark all updates").
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby shane on Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:19 pm

szamot83 wrote:You have right, and thats all. I don't want to irritate (or sth.) you. I have big respect for peoples who are doing things like you, and I'm sure that you know what you are doing. This was only suggestions, propositions.

shane wrote:And if you are interested, I could always use an extra hand on board!


I'm interested, but I don't know if I have sufficient knowledge.


hey! no problems! You are in no way irritating. I realize that the points you raise will be raised by many people. That's why I tried to explain in detail why I did what I did. You have brought up some things that need improving/fixing. Thats the whole point. Your contribution is most welcome and appreciated!
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Re: Boot stalls if USB flash stick plugged in

Postby shane on Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:39 pm

rsammis wrote:I experienced this very problem with the Elyssa XFCE release as well. It occurs only AFTER installing all software updates available via MintUpdate and Synaptic (using default repositories).

Following successful installation of these updates, neither Fluxbox RC1 nor XFCE Final will boot if a flash storage device (flash stick) is present at any USB port. Boot progress is halted and does not resume if the key is unplugged.

Booting in the recovery mode, I note that the flash key is correctly recognized and registered, but the boot halts about a dozen lines later at the beginning of CD-ROM drive detection. The system stll recognizes key removal and insertion (reported on screen) but the boot process just stops. Reboot with the key (any of my several) disconnected and Elyssa boots perfectly.

I must emphasize that this was not a problem in either release until the last "batch" of available software updates were installed using Synaptic (simply by clicking "Mark all updates").


If I understand correctly, you install Mint FB to your hard drive from a CD, then update using synaptic, and then after that you cannot boot while any USB stick plugged in to the computer... but it will boot fine if there is no USB stick plugged in even after the update... Am I right?

1) Do you get the same problem if you update using mintUpdate only... and not updating with synaptic? The two applications update packages differently. mintUpdate is the correct method of updating your Mint system. Synaptic can bring in some clashes with the Ubuntu repos.

2) Do you get the grub menu when you boot with the USB stick plugged in? Or is your computer set to boot from USB before the hard drive?

3) Does it display what device the USB stick is recognized as? e.g. /dev/sda1 or /dev/hda, etc... Maybe your BIOS or Grub detects your USB stick as /dev/sda1, for example, when /dev/sda1 should actually be your hard drive.

Nothing else comes to mind as a possible cause right now. Thanks for the feedback!
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby rsammis on Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:23 pm

You are correct on all points. With flash stick connected, the boot halts after detection of the stick - though not always immediately after. Sometimes, but not always, the system still detects and reports flash stick disconnect/connect. This is reported normally but the boot process remains halted. Soft (3 key) reset is possible.

Despite the boot problem, flash sticks inserted after boot-up are detected and fully functional (work perfectly).

Software updates:
I performed all updates in the order they became available to me. First was a rather large update via MintUpdate. MU installed all level "3" updates and returned with a shorter list of available updates. I installed those as well, rebooted with flash key installed and all went perfectly.

I later preformed a series of Synaptic updates (below from Synaptic history) via "Mark all Updates":

Commit Log for Sun Sep 14 08:22:09 2008
Installed the following packages:
nvidia-glx-new (169.12+2.6.24.13-19.45)

Commit Log for Sun Sep 14 08:46:16 2008
Upgraded the following packages:
initramfs-tools (0.85eubuntu39.1) to 0.85eubuntu39.2
iproute (20071016-2ubuntu1) to 20071016-2ubuntu2
libglib2.0-0 (2.16.3-1ubuntu3) to 2.16.4-0ubuntu3
libglib2.0-data (2.16.3-1ubuntu3) to 2.16.4-0ubuntu3
libglibmm-2.4-1c2a (2.16.0-1) to 2.16.4-0ubuntu1
libldap-2.4-2 (2.4.9-0ubuntu0.8.04) to 2.4.9-0ubuntu0.8.04.1
libnspr4-0d (4.7.1+1.9-0ubuntu0.8.04.1) to 4.7.1+1.9-0ubuntu0.8.04.5
libnss3-1d (3.12.0.2+1.9-0ubuntu0.8.04.1) to 3.12.0.3-0ubuntu0.8.04.4
libpanel-applet2-0 (1:2.22.2-0ubuntu1) to 1:2.22.2-0ubuntu1.1
libpoppler-glib2 (0.6.4-1ubuntu3) to 0.6.4-1ubuntu3.1
libpoppler2 (0.6.4-1ubuntu3) to 0.6.4-1ubuntu3.1
libsmbios-bin (0.13.10-1ubuntu1) to 0.13.10-1ubuntu1.1
libsmbios1 (0.13.10-1ubuntu1) to 0.13.10-1ubuntu1.1
libsmbiosxml1 (0.13.10-1ubuntu1) to 0.13.10-1ubuntu1.1
libwnck-common (2.22.1-0ubuntu1) to 2.22.3-0ubuntu1
libwnck22 (2.22.1-0ubuntu1) to 2.22.3-0ubuntu1
libxslt1.1 (1.1.22-1ubuntu1) to 1.1.22-1ubuntu1.2
pciutils (1:2.2.4-1.1ubuntu4) to 1:2.2.4-1.1ubuntu5
procps (1:3.2.7-5ubuntu2) to 1:3.2.7-5ubuntu3

Commit Log for Sun Sep 14 08:48:02 2008
Upgraded the following packages:
eject (2.1.5-6) to 2.1.5-6ubuntu1
grub-gfxboot (0.97-29-mintflux-2) to 0.97-29-mintmain-1
language-pack-en (1:8.04+20080708) to 1:8.04+20080805
language-pack-gnome-en (1:8.04+20080708) to 1:8.04+20080805
libfreetype6 (2.3.5-1ubuntu4) to 2.3.5-1ubuntu4.8.04.1
libgksu2-0 (2.0.5-1ubuntu5.1) to 2.0.5-1ubuntu5.2
libsmbclient (3.0.28a-1ubuntu4.4) to 3.0.28a-1ubuntu4.5
libtiff4 (3.8.2-7ubuntu3) to 3.8.2-7ubuntu3.1
libxml2 (2.6.31.dfsg-2ubuntu1) to 2.6.31.dfsg-2ubuntu1.2
python-libxml2 (2.6.31.dfsg-2ubuntu1) to 2.6.31.dfsg-2ubuntu1.2
samba-common (3.0.28a-1ubuntu4.4) to 3.0.28a-1ubuntu4.5
smbclient (3.0.28a-1ubuntu4.4) to 3.0.28a-1ubuntu4.5
sudo (1.6.9p10-1ubuntu3.2) to 1.6.9p10-1ubuntu3.3

Commit Log for Sun Sep 14 09:00:27 2008
Upgraded the following packages:
hal (0.5.11~rc2-1ubuntu8.1) to 0.5.11~rc2-1ubuntu8.2
libhal-storage1 (0.5.11~rc2-1ubuntu8.1) to 0.5.11~rc2-1ubuntu8.2
libhal1 (0.5.11~rc2-1ubuntu8.1) to 0.5.11~rc2-1ubuntu8.2
linux-generic (2.6.24.16.18) to 2.6.24.19.21
linux-headers-generic (2.6.24.16.18) to 2.6.24.19.21
linux-image-generic (2.6.24.16.18) to 2.6.24.19.21
linux-restricted-modules-common (2.6.24.12-17.36) to 2.6.24.13-19.45
linux-restricted-modules-generic (2.6.24.16.18) to 2.6.24.19.21

Installed the following packages:
linux-headers-2.6.24-19 (2.6.24-19.41)
linux-headers-2.6.24-19-generic (2.6.24-19.41)
linux-image-2.6.24-19-generic (2.6.24-19.41)
linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24-19-generic (2.6.24.13-19.45)
linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.24-19-generic (2.6.24-19.28)

I can't be certain when the flash key problem began but the kernel update must have come afterwards, as I experience the boot problem now even when booting the original kernel (via grub menu).

Synaptic's "force version" option appears to permit roll-backs to the previous Ubuntu Hardy version only, not necessarily that shipped in Mint FB. This makes going back cleanly somewhat difficult.

This all suggests a nasty "gotcha". Mint users are able to employ both MU and Synaptic when seeking updates. If using the latter is dangerous, users should be informed of this in "big letters". Barring use of Synaptic is not appropriate but I'd not like anyone else to run into the trouble I just did.

Question: Can I rely on MintUpdate exclusively for ALL Mint FB updates, not matter the circumstances?

Thanks!
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby merlwiz79 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:00 pm

Level 1 7 2 updates are considered safe and level 3 is as need for bug fixes.
You install all updates and found that ubuntu can put out updates that break things in the system.
Level 3, 4 & 5 updates aren't tested as well as the ones for the ubuntu release and why they aren't recommended.
They also can cause hardware problems or even remove functions.
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby merlwiz79 on Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:18 pm

Just installed all updates minus the newer kernel and restricted modules.
It still boots with my Kingston thumbdrive connected.
This might be specific to your hardware, but I will test the kernel.

Edit:
Just tested with the new kernel and now have all updates installed.
My system still boots with my Kingston thumbdrive plugged in.
Seems it must be specific to your hardware.
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Re: Linux Mint 5 Elyssa Fluxbox Community Edition RC1

Postby Losgann on Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:13 am

I've just installed Mint Fluxbox RC1 on an old IBM Aptiva with a Pentium II CPU and 128 MB RAM (which had been gathering dust in a closet!) and it WORKS! HUZZAH!

Now I've just got to figure out how to use Fluxbox, as I've never tried it before and it's a little different. I also don't have an internet connection for this computer so I haven't tried to update anything yet.
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Losgann
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