Should the Update-Manager be installed by default?

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Should the Update Manager be installed by default?

No
13
11%
Yes
45
37%
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then no.
21
17%
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then yes.
39
32%
Not sure, mixed feelings
3
2%
 
Total votes: 121

exploder
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Post by exploder »

Husse is right about the kernel update, however the new kernel was quickly fixed. My system was affected by the update. I just booted and selected the original kernel and removed the new kernel until the problem was solved.

I posted a work around for the sound problem in the "How To" section of the forum.

I also prefer an up to date system with all of the security holes patched.

The Ubuntu development team built Feisty and the majority of Mint is Feisty. How can I not trust the developer's then?

I understand not wanting to update Cassandra or Celena with Gutsy updates but this can not happen unless the Gutsy repo's are added.

The update issue is causing a lot of concern on the forums. How will it affect the distro in the eyes of the world?
exploder
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Post by exploder »

Here is an article I found on the subject of updates. The reader's comments are very interesting.

http://www.linux.com/feature/119162
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NoClue!
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Post by NoClue! »

confused!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I,m pissed off! Since Bianca I've been ignorantly handing control of my system over to the orange box and now I find out this could be BAD. I just assumed someone smarter than I was behind needed updates, didn't know I was gambling with my system.

I've been busy fixing xp boxes from the latest round of crippling malware and I'm just one more outbreak away from having a good number of people convinced to switch to Mint. I tell them updating is just like windows, a couple of clicks and all your software is updated. Windows folks are not going to watch out for kernel versions.

Please fix the update process, make it fool proof. We're way too close now to blow it.
FewClues
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Should update be installed as DEFAULT

Post by FewClues »

From the release notes of Celena "The Update Manager and Update Notifier were removed from Celena so users would not perform un-educated upgrades. With more than 2 releases a year and many modules affected by upgrades, stability was preferred to security in Celena. No more pop-ups telling you a new version of Ubuntu became available, no more pop-ups telling you to download the latest kernel... your system is stable, tested and it should stay that way."

My thinking goes along with this. If a person has knowledge enough to understand the updates, they can go to Synaptic and load it on their system and do updates. If they don't understand that they can do that, then they probably don't understand what the updates are and will just hit the plunger and flush their machine.

IF one were to load the update manager after installing Celena then they would find 92 updates waiting on them - and those updates might make for a very interesting certification test. Part of them were security - part were from out of the community. I still can't figure out what two or three of them were.

I would vote for a defualt download that only did security changes, and would even be comfortable with those being done in the back ground (like the Shadow Upgrades from those guys in Washington).


My respect to the forum and thanks for letting me part of it.
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Post by jonar »

I think that opinions on this issue are going to vary widely depending on personal preferences, experience, and free time.

I like the idea of identifying different "levels" of updates, and allowing people to choose - this seems to be the best of both worlds. If that can be available with Celena, that would be great.

For me personally, security updates are a high priority, and kernel updates (unless they are critical security updates) can wait till the next release cycle.

I've had bad experiences with kernel updates breaking things, mainly with some other distros I used to use.

With Mint and Ubuntu I have had no significant issues with the regular updates.

-Jonar-
red-e-made
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Post by red-e-made »

historyb wrote:You need to go back to school you can't count. I am sure you can see that a straight yes has 28 votes and a yes, with mint tool has 24.
Yeah, as was pointed out, I was combining the totals of those who said they wanted a mintTool for this, whether they voted for or against keeping the Update Manager. Sorry if this wasn't clear the first two times I said this.
historyb wrote: It's people like yourself that runs newbies away from Linux, you should learn some posting manners. When a Person comes in with an opinion it is not your place to put that opinion down.
So where exactly do you make the distinction between an opinion and just "putting someone down"? It could be argued that your initial post here - an inaccurate charge that developers weren't paying attention to the poll - is pretty insulting. I personally find that sort of posting very offensive, especially since these people are working hard to provide you with a product that you get for FREE.

Criticism and opinions are always welcome of course, provided they're accurate. Yours wasn't. I pointed out said fact to you and you get upset, weighing your entire argument on my use of the word "whining". Fine, I apologize for saying you were whining. Are you going to apologize for levelling a baseless accusation against the people working hard to bring you a free OS?
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Post by red-e-made »

(By the way everyone, I'm done. I promise not to reply to this guy unless he asks me a direct question, in which case I will answer him in PM. Thanks.)
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historyb
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Post by historyb »

Are you going to apologize for leveling a baseless accusation against the people working hard to bring you a free OS?
Apology accepted. No, I'm not, there was no baseless accusations, just questions. But instead of taking time to see what I really wrote you busted in like a bull in a china shop with the same results. It would do you well to read before talking.

I acknowledge it's his distro to do with as he pleases; However, I took umbrage with the poll going one way and the developer going another. Still in all it's his baby and he can do as he likes as I said in my original post. IMHO, if it's not going to go Ubuntu way than there should be a mint tool.
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clem
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Post by clem »

I realize I haven't explained enough why the update manager could not be present in Celena. I insisted on the uneducated updates problem but there are two problems in fact:

1. update-manager and update-notifier depend on a package called update-manager-core. When Gutsy comes out, Ubuntu updates this package and you then get notified about the availability of Ubuntu Gutsy. First it doesn't "look" good for Mint to tell you you can "upgrade" to Ubuntu. Second if you click "yes" (which is trivial) the tool simply changes your repositories to Gutsy's and start brutally upgrading your system. Some of Mint's specifics get overwritten and you end up with something of a mix between Celena and Gutsy but not exactly the way we would have liked Daryna to look like if you see what I mean... in other words, there's nothing wrong with you upgrading Celena's package base from Feisty to Gutsy but it's something you want to do when you fully understand the consequences and how things work... This happened in Bianca when Feisty came out and a lot of people got confused by it. We got a lot of posts about people simply ending up reinstalling Bianca from the CD and forcing themselves not to click the "dangerous" button :)

2. The second problem was covered a lot. It's to do with uneducated upgrades. It's fine for people to upgrade most of the packages but when they do the kernel or some sensitive parts of their system they should be warned and explained the risks. We don't want people to break their system and as we can observe in this forum, this has happened a lot in the past with 2.6.17 upgrades in Bianca and 2.6.20 upgrades in Cassandra. The short term answer to that is no security upgrades, the long term answer is mintUpdate.

Now the problem is simple. Celena won't give security updates to novice users but we're getting ready to work on Daryna, it should come out faster than you think and it will ship with the new mintUpdate, so it's only a matter of a few months and in the meantime we'd much prefer novice users to have a stable system even if that means being a few month late on security updates.

Clem
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Toontwnca
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Re: Should the Update-Manager be installed by default?

Post by Toontwnca »

clem wrote:Do you think the Update Manager should be installed by default or not?

Please read this before voting: http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=54

Thank you
Clem
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There is clearly room for more wine.

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trianglman
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It should be kept

Post by trianglman »

I understand about the uneducated updates/distro upgrade. I myself was confused initially with the Feisty upgrade. However, the reason Windows (well, one of the reasons) is so insecure is that all of the programs need to be manually updated. The best option (I couldn't vote; I'm not sure if voting is closed or what) is to have a Mint specific version so that it doesn't push the Ubuntu upgrades. I do think, though, that an update system that gives too many upgrade options (especially when you have the option to choose which updates to install) is better than not notifying users that security updates are available.

Thank you for a great distro. I look forward to Celena and beyond.

EDIT: Once I signed in it allowed me to vote, so now my voice is added to that cacophony too.
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NoClue!
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Post by NoClue! »

SORRY I snapped! Here's what happened:

Read fist post in the thread.
Read blog....(No mention of MintUpdate.)
Realized I was an uneducated updater with Bianca....(Not happy about it.)
Clicked on the last page of the thread with my hair on fire.
Vented.
Finally read the whole the thread and the post about MintUpdate.

Once again sounds like a great idea...........I should have known better.
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