Should the Update-Manager be installed by default?

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Should the Update Manager be installed by default?

No
13
11%
Yes
45
37%
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then no.
21
17%
We should have a mint tool for this, and until then yes.
39
32%
Not sure, mixed feelings
3
2%
 
Total votes : 121

Postby Ede on Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:15 pm

red-e-made: Ofcourse, it's just as easy. But I believe it will be better for the first-time-ever-users. Imagine a first-timer installs mint, and sees "Hey, updates. Maybe I should download." and ends up making his system unstable/not working at all, as some kernel-updates have done, and he goes back to windows.
If the first-timer requests automatic updates, it's easier to, at the same time, warn about the stability-issues, and how he can boot into another kernel if it doesn't work.

After some thinking, the best solution would be that it's installed by default, but it wont open and search for updates automagicaly. Mint-assistant can ask if automatic updates should be enabled or not, and at the same time warn about the stability-risks.
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Postby red-e-made on Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:34 pm

[deleted, see below]
Last edited by red-e-made on Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby red-e-made on Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:37 pm

Ede wrote:After some thinking, the best solution would be that it's installed by default, but it wont open and search for updates automagicaly. Mint-assistant can ask if automatic updates should be enabled or not, and at the same time warn about the stability-risks.


I do like that idea. I think the most important thing to have in mind is what brings most people to Linux in the first place - flexibility, user choice, and security.

In the end, I'm glad we can bring together ideas that help the developers who break their backs putting this thing together for us.
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Postby Boo on Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:21 pm

In Celena KDE i have only removed adept-notifier.

so you can still update but you will not get the little icon next to the clock telling you there are updates available.

:D
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Now where was i going? Oh yes, crazy!
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Postby historyb on Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:33 pm

I vote yes, selected the one underneath it on accident. But I say YES.
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Postby newW2 on Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:39 pm

Ede said:
After some thinking, the best solution would be that it's installed by default, but it wont open and search for updates automagicaly. Mint-assistant can ask if automatic updates should be enabled or not, and at the same time warn about the stability-risks.

Thanks for making my comment for me Ede. :D That was my input as well.
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Postby clem on Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:57 am

neighborlee:

so we can be l33t and say we upgrade when WE WANT not our systems ?


You're missing the point. It's not about upgrading "when you want", it's about not having your Celena automatically screwed up when Gutsy gets out, it's about not having your proprietary display drivers broken when a new kernel comes up, it's about you not breaking your system by simply clicking an "ok" button.

Is ubuntu considering this move, - if not why is linuxmint ??


That question doesn't make sense. If we were to rely on Ubuntu to implement what's good for Mint, then why have Linux Mint at all? What are you talking about ?? We're different distros and we do have different challenges, goals, visions and ways to solve them.

My security is less important to you than some outdated notion that linux doesn't need reminders of important changes like windows and fedora, ubuntu, mandriva, freespire, suse and most top 10 + distros do ?


"Your" security is none of my concern right now. The security level in Celena is high enough for me to say that the update manager doesn't need to be present.

I was considering leaving mint because well..for no good reason that I can see ( IM not running anything extra at all ) I get cpu spikes of about 12% every few seconds and that to me is unacceptable so this added to that shows me that linuxmint is but another half-baked attempt at a copy cat scenario of ubuntu apparantly for self glory as this latest move makes clear..its all about ego isn't it instead of helping the user stay protected or informed....I just can't stand l33t minds ; the dripping testosterone and total disregard for my rights is really disturbing


This is not worth answering.

I also flat out can't believe that ANY of you would be happy with this change...you must be kidding.


Maybe you need to have a more open mind. It helps in understanding other people's opinions.

IT really drives home articles like this doesn't it::

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3304051309.html


Off-topic. Good article indeed.

When linux is struggling ( time will tell ) to be recognized and therefore get more deserved hardware and software support from various vendors and more crossplatform games being done,- do yourself a favor and come here and see why , and dont you dare shout about how linux is shunned by companies in favor of the M$ monopoly, because it willl have been the linux attitude that has done it in.

cheers
nl


You've said it. "attitude". This decision was made to improve Linux Mint, I believe it does and all you've done is come here and insult me. So much for an attitude.

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Postby kanishka on Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:40 am

Good and polite reply, Clem. Congratulations. Your (and the forum's) attitude are a major strenght point for LinuxMint, and a breathe of fresh (minty? :wink: ) air.
That's why I always trust your decisions; it's clear that you really do everything to make LinuxMint better.
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Postby clem on Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:49 am

After numerous debates and a lot of thoughts put into it we finally have a strategy. We're going to design a new tool called mintUpdate which will come in Daryna. In the meantime, in Celena, the Ubuntu Update Manager will not be included by default as we believe it does more damage to Mint than it fixes security holes:

http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=71

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Postby red-e-made on Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:37 pm

clem wrote:After numerous debates and a lot of thoughts put into it we finally have a strategy. We're going to design a new tool called mintUpdate which will come in Daryna. In the meantime, in Celena, the Ubuntu Update Manager will not be included by default as we believe it does more damage to Mint than it fixes security holes:

http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=71

Clem


This sounds like the ideal solution, Clem. I'm really looking forward to Daryna now!

One question, though, regarding this:

Some security updates (kernel, xorg.. etc) will appear but not cause notification and they won’t be selected by default.


So this pretty much means that kernel updates will have to be checked for manually and periodically, or what? Can you explain?
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Postby historyb on Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:48 pm

clem wrote:After numerous debates and a lot of thoughts put into it we finally have a strategy. We're going to design a new tool called mintUpdate which will come in Daryna. In the meantime, in Celena, the Ubuntu Update Manager will not be included by default as we believe it does more damage to Mint than it fixes security holes:

http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=71

Clem


Than why waste our time with a poll? It's your distro and you can do what you like, but barring that you put a poll up and yes is winning, next is your own update tool. If you planned it than why a poll if your not going to listen to the majority of your users.
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Postby red-e-made on Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:02 pm

historyb wrote:Than why waste our time with a poll? It's your distro and you can do what you like, but barring that you put a poll up and yes is winning, next is your own update tool. If you planned it than why a poll if your not going to listen to the majority of your users.


Looks like "Yes" and "There should be a mintTool for this, but until then, yes" are pretty close, first of all. Second, would you rather we keep using another distro's package, or create our own? It's a given. I don't understand what you're whining about.
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Postby red-e-made on Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:10 pm

In addition, the combined results for both "we should have a mintTool for this" responses are greater than just "yes", so the results of the poll are being abided anyway. Maybe doing a little math before posting would be a good idea next time.
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Postby historyb on Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:16 pm

red-e-made wrote:
historyb wrote:Than why waste our time with a poll? It's your distro and you can do what you like, but barring that you put a poll up and yes is winning, next is your own update tool. If you planned it than why a poll if your not going to listen to the majority of your users.


Looks like "Yes" and "There should be a mintTool for this, but until then, yes" are pretty close, first of all. Second, would you rather we keep using another distro's package, or create our own? It's a given. I don't understand what you're whining about.


Who the heck are you to talk down to someone? You have no idea what your saying so kindly keep your nose out of it, I wasn't whining anyone with half a brain could see that. I was making an observation that if he was going to do that anyway then why bother with a poll.

If LM is not Ubuntu than of course Clem should get away from it and never use anything there, like PCLOS has it own thing so should LM which is a good distro too.
Last edited by historyb on Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby linuxviolin on Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:03 pm

historyb wrote:Who the heck are you to talk down to someone? You have no idea what your saying so kindly keep your nose out of it, I wasn't whining anyone with half a brain could see that. I was making an observation that if he was going to do that anyway then why bother with a poll.

Why as much of aggressiveness here? :roll: Keep cool guy........
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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Postby clem on Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:33 pm

The poll is pretty important, whether I decide to go with the majority vote or note, it tells me what people think and this is valuable information. As the results stand so far I can see there is a demand for that tool but also that I will have to convince half of the users that this is actually better than the Ubuntu Update Manager. Having a majority of people think something doesn't mean it's actually the best choice, it means that if we go against it we need to do it with diplomacy and a lot of explanations.

The decision to remove the update manager in Celena was taken long before code-freeze. I did notice a lot of worries and protestations though and this is why I made this poll, to know exactly how worried the community is with this decision.

I am confident mintUpdate will be a success and become popular among all of you. I will post regularly about it and have it released in Romeo before Daryna gets out. We needed a tool like this if we were to remove the Update Manager, and as this poll illustrates this need is quite urgent.

red-e-made: There will be 5 levels of security updates, our own (level 1), tested and safe updates (level 2), not tested (level 3), potentially unsafe (level 4), not recommended (level 5). All updates will appear in mintUpdate and the user will be able to select all of them, but depending on their level they will show in different colors (green for level 1... all the way to red for level 5), be selected by default (level 1 and 2) or not (other levels), trigger a warning when selected (level 4 and 5), and only some levels will actually give you a notification... that means you won't get one for a kernel upgrade, but if there's a kernel upgrade and a level 1 upgrade, you'll get a notification.. and when you open mintUpdate you'll see a green selected update and an orange or red not-selected-by-default kernel upgrade.

It's actually trivial and it will make the whole process extremely easy, understandable and safe for the user. It's not even hard to program. Think of it as an Update Manager which assigns different levels depending on the packages and gives you more information about the risks involved.

It will get its upgrade information from the repositories and the meta-data about the packages directly from us. All packages we don't have data for will still appear and be available to the user (so you will actually get updates as soon as they hit the Ubuntu repos, without delays), they will default to level 3.

It's hard to describe like this. I'll post more about it in the blog and publish screenshots of the GUI as soon as I have something working.

There's been a lot of tension about this, maybe I haven't sufficiently explained why the update manager HAD to be removed. I'm sorry if people got frustrated by this. I know exactly what I'm doing and I am confident this will benefit Linux Mint in the long run.

Thanks,
Clem.
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Postby kanishka on Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:32 pm

Here's an article about the updaters and their negative sides:
http://www.linux.com/feature/119162
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Postby historyb on Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:15 pm

linuxviolin wrote:
historyb wrote:Who the heck are you to talk down to someone? You have no idea what your saying so kindly keep your nose out of it, I wasn't whining anyone with half a brain could see that. I was making an observation that if he was going to do that anyway then why bother with a poll.

Why as much of aggressiveness here? :roll: Keep cool guy........


Sorry when someone talks to me like he did I tend to not like it. I've seen others like that and it does burn me up.
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Postby oedenfield on Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:21 pm

The end user needs an easy way to get security updates and add new features if they want/need them. I voted to keep it in. If there were a Mint tool to do security updates and Add/Remove like Ubuntu has then that would work.

I understand the desire to keep some things (kernel) at a constant version to avoid bringing in new issues, but how stable is a system if it is full of security vulnerabilities?

Maybe a way to control what kernel version but get security updates as they come?
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Postby newW2 on Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:27 am

Clem: once again you came up with a good solution to competing points of view (at least IMHO). Sure is great that we are all able to interact and exchange ideas on changes like this with you on the forum.

With regard to your comment about not having sufficiently explained the update manager ... the decision process we all just participated in, is much better than the one that resulted in the silent windows updates that have been in the news of late. :shock:

I look forward to watching mintUpdate evolve to completion in Daryna. Of course you know we will all be standing by with our comments and opinions. :lol:
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