The future of Mint

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Re: The future of Mint

Postby rijnsma on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:32 am

thatsallurspaceships wrote:
rijnsma wrote:
AlbertP wrote:At least LXDE will most likely be converting their things to GTK3, and Xfce also can't keep GTK2 forever when everyone has ported the software to GTK3.

No, but let us hope that Linux adapts to the new challenges and that it can cope.
Not with something like Unity of Gnome3, when it is not ready and many users (and maybe packers
and developers don't like it yet, please.
.
In the meantime I keep and eye on lxde/openbox WattOS. After one week and a half I like it and there is
a new version 4 in one week.
It is neve wrong to keep changing distro untill you come back to mInt. :D

O no, I'm not away.
I have two times Mint on partitions. Mint LMDE my day to day workhorse and Xfce to test,
which is not bad at all and works fine.

(And I have Mint 9 Isadora LTS as a Clonezilla-clone on a backup disk.
And more... PCLOS KDE and PCLOS Gnome on partitions, and Gameia (Mandriva-developers) as clone.
I'm sniffing all over the place since Gnome-shell 3. :D :wink:
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby AlbertP on Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:14 am

Xfce and LXDE care about the users who like an 'outdated' desktop with the opened windows on the panel, etc. just because they're used to it. Such users don't care if the system behind the desktop is GTK 2, GTK 3 or Qt, as long as it works like they're used to. And so are some Mint users. As long as it works like a desktop has worked for 15+ years, it's OK for many people.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby MALsPa on Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:19 am

AlbertP wrote:Xfce and LXDE care about the users who like an 'outdated' desktop with the opened windows on the panel, etc. just because they're used to it. Such users don't care if the system behind the desktop is GTK 2, GTK 3 or Qt, as long as it works like they're used to. And so are some Mint users. As long as it works like a desktop has worked for 15+ years, it's OK for many people.


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it," as many people say!

But I like the new stuff, too.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby tdockery97 on Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:51 pm

Well, I've tried both Gnome 3 Shell and Unity and IMHO they are for people under 30 who are used to using nothing but tablet pc's or smartphones. They are not designed with either mouse/touchpad or keyboard shortcut usage in mind. They are designed for touch-screen. And as someone said in another post, "who wants a bunch of nasty, smeared fingerprints all over their pc monitor?" When they are planning to add an on-screen keyboard, that just screams "tablet pc". Like I said, just my opinion.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby MALsPa on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:00 pm

tdockery97 wrote:Well, I've tried both Gnome 3 Shell and Unity and IMHO they are for people under 30 who are used to using nothing but tablet pc's or smartphones. They are not designed with either mouse/touchpad or keyboard shortcut usage in mind. They are designed for touch-screen. And as someone said in another post, "who wants a bunch of nasty, smeared fingerprints all over their pc monitor?" When they are planning to add an on-screen keyboard, that just screams "tablet pc". Like I said, just my opinion.


Yeah, to each their own. I'm a few decades past 30, don't own a tablet or smartphone or even a netbook, and don't particularly care for touchscreens. But I'm fine using Unity.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby MALsPa on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:29 pm

In fact, go figure, at one time I didn't like anything but KDE3.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby rijnsma on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:33 pm

Unity? You know Tonka-toys? That is what it does me think off.
I knew the 'docky' from KDE..

But when it is better than a free configurable desktop with free moveble icons, and one can do
everything one likes under the hood (without the fingerprints on the screen) and with panels
with SMALL free moveble icons out of the way of apps, it is okay with me.

I like new good software. KDE 4 was hell for years. I was fond of the old KDE 3.5.
KDE is rather usable now. Certainly with some Xfce-apps in it.
After KDE 3.5 -> 4.x.x I went to Gnome. :D
Last edited by rijnsma on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby linuxviolin on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:36 pm

AlbertP wrote:Xfce and LXDE care about the users who like an 'outdated' desktop with the opened windows on the panel, etc. just because they're used to it.

First you forgot KDE. Yes, with with a Folder View Activity on the desktop etc, although it's better if it's by default in the distro, you have a quite usable and modern desktop and one which looks like "an 'outdated' desktop with the opened windows on the panel" like you said... Plus, LXDE is quite buggy and I don't like it and XFCE, and even if 4.8 is maybe better and fast, is "never there yet” and no matter how you’re configuring it, it still feels like Win95 or maybe Win98. And its inability to display the desktop icon titles with a transparent background (and shadowed/outlined text for improved visibility over the wallpaper) is simply a decision to stick to 1995!...

AlbertP wrote:As long as it works like a desktop has worked for 15+ years, it's OK for many people.

No, not just for "many people" but for everybody! Nobody *needs* these new "things" and this desktop which "has worked for 15+ years" was quite productive, usable, simple, for mentally sane people etc Well, everything that the new toys are not.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby rijnsma on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:55 pm

linuxviolin wrote:
LXDE is quite buggy

Tiny note: not any more when it is done right I noticed in WattOS. 8)
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby AlbertP on Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:30 am

Install lxde from the repository and you get a decent desktop. Install Mint LXDE and it's even better. Never found any bug in it.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby MALsPa on Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:25 am

rijnsma wrote:Unity? You know Tonka-toys? That is what it does me think off.


linuxviolin wrote:Plus, LXDE is quite buggy and I don't like it and XFCE, and even if 4.8 is maybe better and fast, is "never there yet” and no matter how you’re configuring it, it still feels like Win95 or maybe Win98. And its inability to display the desktop icon titles with a transparent background (and shadowed/outlined text for improved visibility over the wallpaper) is simply a decision to stick to 1995!...


linuxviolin wrote:Nobody *needs* these new "things" and this desktop which "has worked for 15+ years" was quite productive, usable, simple, for mentally sane people etc Well, everything that the new toys are not.


And there you have it. Does anyone remember the good old days, the whole GNOME vs. KDE thing? Every DE has people who love it and people who dislike it.

"The more things change, the more things stay the same," my old man used to say. Looks like taking shots at whatever DE they don't prefer to use, and at the people who use it, and at its devs will always be the favorite pastime for many Linux users.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby rijnsma on Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:57 am

When it is better, it's better and then we can go use it. :D
But I have not seen that kind of 'better'.
For the moment it is still a kind of forcing upon us.
So some people search their way out. :wink:
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby linuxviolin on Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:12 am

MALsPa wrote:the favorite pastime for many Linux users.

You say the word: "pastime". But we don't want a pastime, we want something solid, stable, not changing all the time, on which you can have the last version of apps without have to update the system libraries (especially often to such new they are sometimes/often in a beta state, so unstable), several years of support, enterprise class, something for users, for productivity, for mentally sane people etc etc (I talk about everything, desktops, distros...) Everything that all these new toys, pastimes, are not.
Last edited by linuxviolin on Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby rijnsma on Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:14 am

Yes!
I do my work with Linux.
I like to keep it that way.
I'm not fond of M$$.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby MALsPa on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:50 am

linuxviolin wrote:You say the word: "pastime". But we don't want a pastime, we want something solid, stable, not changing all the time, on which you can have the last version of apps without have to update the system libraries (especially often to such new they are sometimes/often in a beta state, so unstable), several years of support, enterprise class, something for users, for productivity, for mentally sane people etc etc (I talk about everything, desktops, distros...) Everything that all these new toys, pastimes, are not.


Huh? The "favorite pastime for many Linux users" that I referred to is the act of "taking shots at whatever DE they don't prefer," etc. It's the same now as it was when GNOME and KDE users used to argue endlessly about which was best and which was worse and so forth. From where I sit, today we simply have a new twist on the same, very old theme. The solution is the same as it's always been: Use what works for you. Nobody's forcing anyone to use Unity or GNOME3; if you don't like it, install something else. But too many Linux users can't be happy having different choices, they have to stay stuck on complaining about this DE or that DE. Never mind the fact that there are good reasons why many people use and enjoy the DE that you don't like. Dude, it's still Linux; you can still do what you want with your system. Change happens; deal with it.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby rijnsma on Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:44 pm

With KDE 4 was not possible to work for years, while KDE 3.5 was great (but with a simple look okay).
Now we have some KDE which works right (but no more than that) with some glitter. O yeah..! :roll:
I like them Gnomes and Unities to bring 'the new one' when its better than the old one. :D
Which is not the case yet in my opinion.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby tdockery97 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:18 pm

MALsPa wrote:Change happens; deal with it.

That's the best point anyone has made yet, MALsPa. Actually, in a strange way I am grateful that this whole Gnome 3 and Unity thing has come about. If it hadn't, I would not have taken the time to discover KDE or LXDE. The KDE desktop is a lot of fun and even the default look is beautiful, while LXDE is simple, easy to use and configure, and absolutely blazing fast. I have both Mint 11 LXDE and Fedora 15 LXDE on my laptop, and the Fedora LXDE boots in 25 seconds from Grub menu to desktop.

I can't wait to try out the Mint Debian KDE that Boo is working on.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby jeffreyC on Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:39 pm

People who complain about desktop designs that are 15 years old do not realize that that kind of desktop was the result of multi-million dollar research on how people really use a computer. (I am not a Microsoft fanboy but when someone gets something right, credit where credit is due)
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby linuxviolin on Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:49 pm

MALsPa wrote:Nobody's forcing anyone to use Unity or GNOME3; if you don't like it, install something else.

I guess you're joking... We are constantly pushed to cr**. We are pushed to GNOME 3 as GNOME 2 is no more maintained, idem when KDE 4 arrived etc When they are really polished -- think KDE 3.5.10 or GNOME 2.32 --, there are some benevolent teams of dictators who decide to jump to an unstable boat -- think KDE 4.0.0, GNOME 3.0. By the way, in Linux, as soon as a technology is mature & stable enough, someone gets on steroids and decides to develop a totally different replacement, which is then pushed on the market while not entirely production-ready. :evil:

Oh and I already said in several different places what I think of the others... so I'll not repeat myself here. :mrgreen:

tdockery97 wrote:the Fedora LXDE boots in 25 seconds from Grub menu to desktop.

This is unimportant. I'll make just a quote:

"If it ain't broken, don't fix it." Countless examples (y compris KDE4, GNOME3, but I'm not going into this), I'll just say SysV init/systemd/upstart/whatnot -- I'm not even interested in this cr**. It is cr** for me because:

i. Booting time is irrelevant for servers, they're 99.99999% up.
ii. Only stupid desktop users would shutdown when hibernation (suspend-to-disk) is available.
iii. Gaining 10 seconds in boot time is not worthing, if the price is a disruptive redesign of the entire init process, with tons of downstream work for everyone.
Last edited by linuxviolin on Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The future of Mint

Postby MALsPa on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:39 am

linuxviolin wrote:
MALsPa wrote:Nobody's forcing anyone to use Unity or GNOME3; if you don't like it, install something else.

I guess you're joking... We are constantly pushed to cr**. We are pushed to GNOME 3 as GNOME 2 is no more maintained, idem when KDE 4 arrived etc When they are really polished -- think KDE 3.5.10 or GNOME 2.32 --, there are some benevolent teams of dictators who decide to jump to an unstable boat -- think KDE 4.0.0, GNOME 3.0. By the way, in Linux, as soon as a technology is mature & stable enough, someone gets on steroids and decides to develop a totally different replacement, which is then pushed on the market while not entirely production-ready. :evil:


Not joking at all.

Think about it. Nobody's forcing you to use Linux. If you use Linux, nobody's forcing you to use Ubuntu. If you use Ubuntu, you can install whatever DE or WM you want to use; nobody's forcing you to stick with Unity.

Heck, at this moment, I'm using Fluxbox in Mepis 11, not KDE4. I use Openbox in Lucid, AwesomeWM in Squeeze, Xfce in Fedora 15. If you don't like a particular DE in Linux, you simply don't have to use it. Nobody's holding a gun to your head threatening to pull the trigger if you don't use GNOME3 or Unity, right? (Glances over his shoulder...) :lol:
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