Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

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Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby Christof999 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:14 pm

Hi,

I was under the impression UP3 would be released by now. Im already more than a bit annoyed that I installed LMDE shiny new respin and installed alll my normal packages only to find they came from multimedia and that repository has now been slated unfit and scheduled to be changed. I really don't understand why the re-spin just wasnt help back until the latest repo had migrated or until it could be released with UP3 on it but that does'nt really matter. What does is...

1. I can't install any new software as it will pull dependancies from multimedia and not mint latest multimedia! I have to wait now to finish configuring a system for however long and put my work on hold. If I have to re-install I am migrating, these is just a bit too silly.

2. I didn't read the tiny little note on this homepage until AFTER I had installed a bunch of multimedia packges (as everyone does after a fresh install). Now I have to worry about if my system will be compatible with latest whenever it shows up. I KNOW that the majority of people have not read that announcement and will just continue to update everyday until latest comes out, and even then after it comes out since they won't be back to this site untilt he next install to read to change it!! How is this going to be handled? With the dependancies from multimedia packages I installed, my suposedly fresh install now has almost 100 essential packages from multimedia and security.

3. Id rather wait an extra week and not have to deal with all this. Tech people just stop rushing! Im glad technologists of old were not in this much rush. Imagine what it would have been like if inventors release beta level finished products for the first automobile or aeroplane. It took me 1 hour of reading just to figure out what was even going on with the repos. Then after I figured it out, I find out I was using the wrong multimedia repos afterall because it comes set default to security and multimedia? How is that ok or user friendly. Don't get me wrong, its a "great" distribution. But thats the trouble, were so used to computers breaking that even something with a serious problem such as this repository one is lauded as a sweeping sucess simply because its a bit less broken than other similar "finished" products?

So please let us know when we may get UP3 and please make a post regarding those of us who have been installing updates trustingly since release.

P.S. If I got the facts wrong or you feel Im over reacting because it will turn out ok, then you totally missed the point. Home end-users, students, parents, small buissiness owners should need to dig in this deep just for basic system stability or just to understand their system. I think my mother would have better luck disarming a bomb blind than figuring out what repos are what and how to use them.

Positives: I am now VERY educated on debian repos and testing processes.
Negatives: Im a plant scientist. I did'nt want to be. Nobody will repay me for the time and energy needed to spend on getting my already purchased computer to just work.
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby hairybiker on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:26 pm

I was in the same position, I couldn't get ffmpeg to install had issues with other packages, etc.
Just in the process of re-formatting the box with Mint 11 standard :roll: At least it is stable and everything works.

These multiple repositories to get things is just confusing to us normal users. I have been through testing/latest and WHY and just given UP!
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby proxima_centauri on Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:47 pm

Christof999 wrote:P.S. If I got the facts wrong or you feel Im over reacting because it will turn out ok, then you totally missed the point. Home end-users, students, parents, small buissiness owners should need to dig in this deep just for basic system stability or just to understand their system. I think my mother would have better luck disarming a bomb blind than figuring out what repos are what and how to use them.

I understand your frustration, and surely you will view this as a cop-out; however, LMDE was never advertised as an easy desktop solution for all end users like the main edition. This is a goal for the future. You want to install LinuxMint for your mother? get the main edition. It is clearly stated on the LMDE download page:
Cons:
Although it's using Romeo for unstable packages, LMDE continuously changes as it receives updates and new software. Compared to a frozen version of Linux Mint which changes very little once it's publicly released, it's not as stable. Things are likely to break more often but fixes can also come quicker. For this reason, LMDE requires a deeper knowledge and experience with Linux, dpkg and APT.
Debian is a less user-friendly/desktop-ready base than Ubuntu. Expect some rough edges.


Again, things are confusing with the update packs and repositories, but if you read the release notes, the information is there. The only problem with having the multimedia and security repo is that there may be newer packages in those repo's, which require new package version dependencies from packages in the main Debian repo. If you received updates from multimedia or security repo, then they were compatible - else they would have complained.

Christof999 wrote:1. I can't install any new software as it will pull dependancies from multimedia and not mint latest multimedia! I have to wait now to finish configuring a system for however long and put my work on hold. If I have to re-install I am migrating, these is just a bit too silly.

If you comment out the multimedia and security repo's, you should be able to update and install new packages from the other active repo's.
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby Christof999 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:27 pm

proxima_centauri wrote:
Christof999 wrote:P.S. If I got the facts wrong or you feel Im over reacting because it will turn out ok, then you totally missed the point. Home end-users, students, parents, small buissiness owners should need to dig in this deep just for basic system stability or just to understand their system. I think my mother would have better luck disarming a bomb blind than figuring out what repos are what and how to use them.

I understand your frustration, and surely you will view this as a cop-out; however, LMDE was never advertised as an easy desktop solution for all end users like the main edition. This is a goal for the future. You want to install LinuxMint for your mother? get the main edition. It is clearly stated on the LMDE download page:
Cons:
Although it's using Romeo for unstable packages, LMDE continuously changes as it receives updates and new software. Compared to a frozen version of Linux Mint which changes very little once it's publicly released, it's not as stable. Things are likely to break more often but fixes can also come quicker. For this reason, LMDE requires a deeper knowledge and experience with Linux, dpkg and APT.
Debian is a less user-friendly/desktop-ready base than Ubuntu. Expect some rough edges.


Again, things are confusing with the update packs and repositories, but if you read the release notes, the information is there. The only problem with having the multimedia and security repo is that there may be newer packages in those repo's, which require new package version dependencies from packages in the main Debian repo. If you received updates from multimedia or security repo, then they were compatible - else they would have complained.

Christof999 wrote:1. I can't install any new software as it will pull dependancies from multimedia and not mint latest multimedia! I have to wait now to finish configuring a system for however long and put my work on hold. If I have to re-install I am migrating, these is just a bit too silly.

If you comment out the multimedia and security repo's, you should be able to update and install new packages from the other active repo's.



No I coulnt install it for my mother the point is if she had to choose which impossible task from her perspective, the bomb would be technically easier for her to understand. Im just sayin, thats kinda balls.

If you comment out the multimedia and security repo's, you should be able to update and install new packages from the other active repo's.


Great, except if they originate in multimedia, as many many end user programs do. Im glad I can install gcc and stuff, but how about VLC? Pdf software? Everything else that is in or depends on multimedia?

As for the LMDE isnt user friendly, well it may not be (fully , yet) but people will think it is. You're number 2 on Distrowatch, user friendly web site, good reputation and easily accessible web links. Whether its right or not people will just assume its user friendly (often cause some tech savvy friend says so or a 1 page google search does), download without reading and install. You have pitched yourself as very user friendly for years, then expect all that image can be washed away by these tiny little notes that clem puts in the release annoucements? Give me a break. If I got an email or system notifcation or a script that just disabled it, I wouldnt be complaining. But no, of course not, I have to add hours of tedious highly technical university level developer research to my current overworked schedule just to get my hardware working.

My frustration? There hasnt been an OS that has ever worked flawlessly and its all avoidable with better direction and less rush to release. If I bought 12 cars and all had serious problems it wouldnt be acceptable? My boss wouldnt allow me 2 weeks off while I tinkered and tried to get it to a state where I could just drive to work, why is it acceptable for every OS and program in the world to be hal complete, buggy and rushed? It kills more productivity than a broken car, and there's no recourse. Its not just mint, as I said Mint is the best distro Ive found, but I still have to get another undergrad in unix systems just to run it.

Bottom line 90% of users won't read forums, tech threads or tiny release notes annoucement. Most people who installed LMDE won't even know they have a problem until they have done a ton of installing from multimedia.

I friggin hate how linux devs want to live on both sides of the fence. They want linux to be open, user friendly and an actual alternative to windows and mac, but then when they develop an OS that often unintentionally does the opposite they chime in with the old tired "You didnt pay for it", "Linux is a hobby distro", "Just this release and our last 12 releases had major show stopping bugs in the finals but expect rough edges."

Bottom line is, set the bar higher, stop defending mistakes and slow the heck down. If it works, stop breaking it!
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby Fandangio on Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:41 pm

I agree, up until now I have managed to refrain form chiming in on this topic (at large).

The whole idea of the update packs (as far as I am aware) was to prevent breakages and thus make a rolling base more appealing to the average user. Personally I don't mind to odd issue and manage to Google my way out of most problems, however releasing a new spin with such a serious issue seems bizarre.
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby DrHu on Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:53 pm

Christof999 wrote:3. Id rather wait an extra week and not have to deal with all this. Tech people just stop rushing! Im glad technologists of old were not in this much rush. Imagine what it would have been like if inventors release beta level finished products for the first automobile or aeroplane.

I think that is indeed a big part of the general problem of product development in the faster paced society of today; of course unlike olden days when it was slower and there were no computers to help, people did analyze the process and design items needed much more thoroughly
    Ah well, that might be the price of progress
    --it's become easy(or so much easier) to develop a product, whether an aeroplane or something else, such as software, that planning gets rushed in order to meet a deadline (market pressure)..

However in today's market forced economy, whether that is commercial or open source (they also feel that pressure), planning almost goes out the window in preference to getting it (the product) out ..
    Not that I feel that Mint is any real slouch in their planning, it seems pretty much OK..
    --and apart from the issues you have presented, with its attendant frustrations, most of their versions are OK (being that they are depending on their upstream developments (Ubuntu for the most part, and Debian for some versions)

I only say OK
--because I do see various issues/problems
    And again, I think that is product/market pressures and their need to appeal to many, in getting the new out and available in quick succession
    --as well as their ( Mints') dependency on upstream resources..
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby Christof999 on Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:51 pm

hairybiker wrote:I was in the same position, I couldn't get ffmpeg to install had issues with other packages, etc.
Just in the process of re-formatting the box with Mint 11 standard :roll: At least it is stable and everything works.

These multiple repositories to get things is just confusing to us normal users. I have been through testing/latest and WHY and just given UP!


You are lucky I had to abandon the buntu variants as they had a habit of "greying out" all the time while doing basic things like typing and browsing nautilus. Yeah 4 cores and 2 gb of DDR2 ram and the DE couldnt even hadnle text based tasks. I constantly felt like it was optimus primes death scene, everythings fine, BAM! grey and lifeless. Also flash constantly crashed and had idiotic issues like freezing because of maximizing or pausing video. The debian system is actually stable, thats why this is so frustrating. It was fine, and all we needed to do was wait a week and release it with the final ready to go repos. After all this time, a working system and its screwed up again for the reason it always is, updates to software that breaks it instead of improves it! The positive side of this is that there will never be a robot takeover as humanity seems to lack inate ability to make fully functional technology. More specifically, as complexity increases humanities ability to creating working systems seems to decrease proportionally. At least at this rate. Has anyone not every considered that like building a house or hydro-electric dam, building software or building and learning anything takes a minimum amount of time?

I am going to start a electric razor company. The great thing is Ill be able to design, test and manufacture them by next week. Shipping October 1st Only 19.95, how many can I put you down for?
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby Intio on Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:22 am

There is nothing wrong with installing from Multimedia and Security: the only problem is updating from them after you have installed the OS.

Take a screenshot of Update Manager with its new Multimedia and Security updates. Keep the screenshot on your desktop.

Any time you want to install new software, and it asks to install some other things as well, just check to see if any of those dependencies are in the Update Manager screenshot. If not then you will face no problems.

If I got the facts wrong or you feel Im over reacting because it will turn out ok, then you totally missed the point.


Whilst I appreciate the above isn't ideal you seem to be making a huge issue out of this, when in fact you can install new software from Multimedia and Security. I actually agree with you on the idea of delaying the re-spin until UP3 was out, but I disagree with your summation of the problem. LMDE wasn't made for new users (i.e. your mother). You have no doubt heard this, yet you still seem to be ignoring it.

In fact starting a sentence with "If I got the facts wrong... " and ending it with "... then you totally missed the point." sounds like you are aware of this. :wink:
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby altair4 on Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:28 am

I honestly and truly believe that there should be just one modification to the download page for any Debian-based Mint that puts the following message ( that's already there ) either at the top of the page or right before the list of download mirrors:
Although it's using Romeo for unstable packages, LMDE continuously changes as it receives updates and new software. Compared to a frozen version of Linux Mint which changes very little once it's publicly released, it's not as stable. Things are likely to break more often but fixes can also come quicker. For this reason, LMDE requires a deeper knowledge and experience with Linux, dpkg and APT.
Debian is a less user-friendly/desktop-ready base than Ubuntu. Expect some rough edges.

Reword it a bit so it ditches the Romeo reference since all those people fleeing Ubuntu because they hate Unity will have no idea what that means. Perhaps include a link to the Linux Mint download page.

I think this would eliminate legitimate posts like the OP and the growing list of "I'll show you my sources.list if you show me yours" posts. That would leave people who are used to Debian Testing and people who think the following sentence makes perfect sense:
Intio wrote:There is nothing wrong with installing from Multimedia and Security: the only problem is updating from them after you have installed the OS.
Please add a [SOLVED] at the end of your original subject header if your question has been answered and solved.
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby rootkowski on Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:13 am

I can see the discussion finished a week ago, but I found it today and it encouraged me to add my two cents (even though what I'm going to write spills beyond the scope of this thread).

I've been thinking for a while of making my thoughts about the latest Linux Mint DE known, just couldn't get to it in fear, mostly, that I'd be misunderstood as simply critisising. So let me first give a little bit of background info. I've been using LM for years, I mean, for yeeeeaaars, at least since version 4. I always loved the distro, it was always easy to install and easy to configure. I have always appreciated the huge amount of work that Clem and the team put into developing LM and this appreciation is not going to evapourate. You guys have done a great job throughout.

I'm a bit of an impatient sort, so I always want to have repos that allow me to install the latest nvidia drivers and wine. Yes, Linux IS my gaming platform so these two, nvidia and wine, are absolutely essential. And it's very very difficult to give up living on the bleeding edge of the development of these two pieces of software, because each version brings, often big, sometimes huge improvements.

Over the years LM team have absolutely spoiled us with stability and user friendliness. But recent decisions where to take LM and how to release it do seem, as someone wrote above, bizzare. Let me explain.

One thing, widely described above, is the repos. I am very surprised to see that the team that always looks to user-friendliness decided to release a version of their renowned distro in which you are not supposed to install some updates. Nevermind the technical bits, I don't think I even ran into any problems with repos. But only after having installed some updates, sure to vlc etc., I read in some forum thread that I wasn't supposed to do that because it might break the system for future updates. Is that necessary?

Other issues, which directly influenced my experience, are connected to my two favourite pieces of software: nvidia drivers and wine both in bleeding edge versions.

There is no easy way of installing nvidia drivers (not nouveau, the 'real' nvidia drivers). I also read in some thread that with LMDE I even have to be careful installing wine because something might break. Now, I'm not exactly a complete beginner when it comes to Linux, but I have been spoiled and always proud of using GUI apps to handle things on Linux.

Sure thing there are guides on how to install nvidia drivers on LMDE, guides that also point out running Compiz isn't straight forward either and requires even more tinkering. I did manage to install the drivers with a few reboots into recovery mode to figure why the system just wouldn't load. Sure I installed wine, but not without problems. And can you guess how this whole situation makes me feel? It feels like we're back to the times of LM 4 or something like that, when getting Compiz or Beryl to work would take hours of googling, tinkering and rebooting, the same for graphics drivers. To me seeing the LM team allowing this is very difficult to understand.

Let me emphasise again, I know of and appreciate the amount of work put into developing LM. What I'm trying to point out is that even the best plans, if carried out badly, won't bring the desired effect.

I decided to try LMDE tempted by the promise of having the latest and greatest, faster and less resource hungry. Who wouldn't want that? Installing the latest version of wine (believe it's 1.3.29) didn't work so smoothly, why? Because alsa packages in LMDE are outdated, wine needs at least alsa 1.0.24 (which, btw, I installed yesterday on my main system LM KDE based on maveric a year old Ubuntu) and LMDE comes with 1.0.23. On my main system I've had the latest nvidia drivers (which is 280.13) ever since nvidia released them basically, through the ubuntu x-swat ppa. But with LMDE I only get 275.09. I suppose my understanding of 'latest' wasn't correct, I assumed LMDE IS for people who want to live on the bleeding edge, but it doesn't seem this edge is that bleeding after all.

The decision of making LMDE the base for all other editions was an indication enough that it IS as easy and user friendly as what we're used to. But after my experiences with LMDE I'm a little bit worried about the next version of LM KDE. Because if getting basics of an OS in 2011 demands tinkering, command line and small heart attacks when the system doesn't boot properly, I might just as well stay with a 2010 OS. To me, the decision of swapping the base for all editions except for the main one to LMDE is questionable given the state of things. It's a bit like saying that only the main edition deserves LM's traditional user friendliness.

I think that most of the problems, issues and worries could be avoided by a lot clearer communication between the team and the users (notice I'm not writing community, I do mean users, both the community and the people who just use LM without knowledge, desire or time enough to participate in the forums or different projects, people who don't tinker etc.). The blog has been rather quiet of late and even though I have it in my RSS reader, not much gets through.

Another method to avoid the confussion could be, since LMDE is, as it turns out, not for an avarage user, the naming. Why not LM Enthusiast Edition? Or Geek Edition? The name could be different and better than the ones I have written here :)

Maybe a little javascript alert when you go to the LMDE download page that shouts in my face this edition is for people who have time on their hands and like tinkering?

This post is long enough already lol Let me just have a go at summerising my messy thoughts above. Again, LM team do a great job developing the OS. I think though that there are things that could be done better, mostly communication. I can fully understand that the team want to have a different base for the distro, but in my opinion, until it's on par with the main edition in terms of ease of use and user friendliness, it should perhaps be labeled as Release Candidate or Development Version or Work-In-Progress Edition, to clearly indicate to people that they shouldn't expect the same experience as with what we've been so used to and spoiled by throughout the years. I'm looking forward to LMDE being as smooth and easy to use as the main edition and I'm sure it'll be another great release of the LM team.
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Re: Could we PLEASE get a true idea of release for UP3?

Postby rootkowski on Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:52 pm

I'm happy to add that I had absolutely no issues with the latest updates (UP3). Everything installed very smoothly, even didn't have to reinstall anything nvidia, thanks to the fact there was an update to the drivers too. Also, some of the things I pointed out yesterday are no longer relevant. In particular, I now have the latest nvidia drivers, wine and alsa :)
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