LMDE a sleeping distro?

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LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby edgarkls on Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:12 pm

The main reason why I decided to switch from my previous distro to LMDE was that it was announced as a rolling distro. However, there is not much rolling going on, it's more like a sleeping beauty. Is there any chance that this situation might change in the not so distant future? I am especially concerned about some of the security issues which have still not been fixed in LMDE.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby vrkalak on Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:38 pm

The updates are normally released from Debian 'testing' to LMDE 'latest' on a monthly basis.

As that, Mint-12 was just released and the Mint Dev-Team is busy squashing the remaining 'bugs' there.

As soon, as the Devs are satisfied, with that ... work will commence on releasing/updating the next LMDE Update-Pack

Unlike Ubuntu or Debian ... Mint has a 'small' team of Devs/Maintainers and Testers.

Bare with us . . . patience. It will be worth the wait. :D
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby edgarkls on Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:03 pm

no doubt that'll be a monster of an update then
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby wyrdoak on Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:27 pm

edgarkls wrote:no doubt that'll be a monster of an update then


The biggest heartburn is that on top of the new MINT12 is, Debian is updating to Gnome 3.0 and new Invidia drivers, nether of which seem to be behaving nicely with others. :lol:

So there is more work involved than normal with the next package. It will come though.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby vrkalak on Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:31 pm

wyrdoak wrote:Debian is updating to Gnome 3.0 and new Invidia drivers, nether of which seem to be behaving nicely with others. :lol:
So there is more work involved than normal with the next package. It will come though.

You are correct, in that.

Clem said, in the IRC-chats, that the MInt Devs are waiting for Gnome-3.2 to hit Debian 'testing' ... then they will be porting Gnome-3 and MGSE to LMDE with the next Update-Pack.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby edgarkls on Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:17 pm

I thought Gnome 3.2 had already hit testing? Or was that only partially?
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby lebigouden on Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:13 pm

Personally i prefer to wait for a maximum of bugs to be ironed out before the updates get released, i'll take stability over novelties anytime :D
Keep up the good work guys!
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby Lendo on Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:06 pm

I'd prefer never to see Gnome 3 :twisted:
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby narnie on Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:16 pm

I hadn't changed over to the new mintupdate-debian and the new package repos yet. What did I get for my laziness? A Gnome 3 debian-branded desktop. I wasn't happy at first because I was all ready to hate Gnome 3. However, after reading an article in Linux Format on Gnome 3, I decided I would give it a less biased look. Turns out, I really like Gnome 3. This is the native Gnome 3, not with the mint additions. I'm sure they will get to the LM branding soon enough. I'm really enjoying how to use Gnome 3. I have started using Cairo dock which fits in well with it.

There are little niggles here and there. I don't like the lack of keyboard shortcuts for the dash. The Alt-F2 app started need to be more robust like the one in Gnome 2.x, but I have faith it will get there. I'm impressed with its speed and its looks. Sure, I'm going to miss wobbly windows, the cube, and the "burn up" effects of Compiz. Still, it is a functional desktop that is attractive and usable. I'm eager for the Gnome 3.2 (as what I'm using is Gnome 3.0) because I really like having a weather applet. I have one on Cairo dock, but I have that minimized.

Overall, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Gnome 3 hasn't hurt my work flow. You just need to know a little bit about how to use it. I recommend http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/CheatSheet for starters.

I'm probably going to start using gmrun for my app starter (which I already used before with xbindkeys tied to Alt-Shift F2).

Please, give Gnome 3 a real chance before you judge it too harshly.

Regards,
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby rhodry on Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:37 am

Clem said, in the IRC-chats, that the MInt Devs are waiting for Gnome-3.2 to hit Debian 'testing' ... then they will be porting Gnome-3 and MGSE to LMDE with the next Update-Pack.


And that will no doubt make Update Pack4 in excess of 1Gb in size; given the size of the current differential between 'latest' & 'testing'. How do we not dump such a ridiculously large update on existing and new installers with limited bandwidth? Well, we had better put out a new snapshot iso as well. Oh, yeah, that's looking about the same as the old Ubuntu release process??!!!! :x Cynicism intended!!

They should stop calling LMDE a 'rolling release''! By any reasonable definition of that term it has not been one since the introduction of the Update Packs and, certainly at the moment, it is not looking anything like a 'rolling release'!

Don't get me wrong; I understand all the issues of development team sizes etc and I still think they do a very good job in terms of the quality of what gets released. BUT, it is not now, nor does it look like being any time soon, a genuine 'rolling release' distribution and it should not be labeled such. I was successful in converting over 130 people to LMDE primarily because it was to be a 'rolling release' and nearly half of those are wanting out because it is not a 'rolling release' as they thought they were getting! :x

Just my perspective.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby Brian49 on Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:38 am

I am still using LMDE as a rolling release, simply by ignoring the Mint "update pack" arrangements and continuing to track the Debian repositories directly. This hasn't caused me any big problems so far.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby MintFuriousUser on Sun Nov 20, 2011 7:33 am

Yes it is a sleeping distro. This is so bad because it is a so nice distro. I am using Mint Debian for two months and I can say I loved it already. I like everything about it but having outdated software is frustrating. I am thinking everyday to format and go with something else just because of this. I don't mind if I don't have the latest Banshee or Deluge that is ok they work just fine now. I care about the security issues. And LMDE has A LOT! Now you can say whatever you want about Mint-Devs being a small team etc etc but they are also liers. This is not a rolling release and we got nothing last month we got nothing this month and we will get nothing the next month. This is more like windows you know...When is gnome 3.2 going to hit debian? Why do I have to wait for something like that to get my security updates? Is it that hard to give us the current latest and greatest and just take the gnome 3.2 to the next UP? Give us a security and latest programs versions UP now and THEN wait for gnome 3.2 to hit debian testing. I am just waiting to see what will happen with us after the Ubuntu Mint gets released. Every time Clem announces something we LMDE users are searching between the 1000 lines to find two words for us. Come on Clem! Come here on this forum post and answer to us! Give us the truth. Are we going to get any updates any time soon? I don't care about the gnome 3.2 hiting Debian thing. When are we going to get any security updates? When?
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby viking777 on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:33 am

The trouble is that the people who complain that LMDE is not rolling (fast enough) are probably going to be the very same people who complain when it does roll fast enough and subsequently breaks. There is just no pleasing all the people all the time. If you want a fast rolling release just use testing repos it will roll to the tune of 20 or so updates a day sometimes - and it will also break on occasions too. LMDE 'latest' has never broken because it hasn't been updated in weeks - you take your choice as to what you want.

I think rhodry has a valid point and one that concerns me, the next update for incoming is probably going to be so large that it will be the size of a distro, and already this makes it nearly impossible for limited bandwidth users to use. I personally won't even download a new distro if it only fits on a dvd (I don't have mint 12 for instance and won't have it unless I find it on a magazine disc eventually) let alone an update to an existing one, so for me LMDE incoming is virtually dead, but then again I am happy with testing so I have still got an LMDE install. If it wasn't for testing I would be using Pclinux as my main distro as they have an almost perfect balance of stability and recency (but of course imho suffer from rpm package management).

I also agree with narnie. As a confirmed Fluxbox lover I was ready to hate gnome3 also, but I can't. Sure it isn't finished and has annoyances aplenty, but it is in better shape now than KDE 4 was when it first came out (in fact I would argue it is in better shape than KDE4 is now after 3 years development - but that is just my prejudice, feel free to ignore it :lol: ) So I wouldn't write Gnome3 off. If it can convince a Flux fanboy to use it then it must have something going for it, certainly more than any of its opposition in any other camp.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby asymmetros on Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:50 am

I do share all that frustration about the LMDE distro. Furthermore, i am using Xfce, not gnome and i do not give a dime for gnome 3.2 and when it reaches testing or whatever.
Yes, Mint has a small team of devs but the fact is that right now, LMDE is not a rolling distro. It used to be before the Update pack's system.

Every time Clem announces something we LMDE users are searching between the 1000 lines to find two words for us


Sadly, this is the truth. Personally, i am pointing now straight to Debian Sid repos. But how is it supposed the Update packs' schema to be successful if more and more users are discouraging to use it? :?:

How important is LMDE inside the Mint ecosystem?
The initial plan of a new update pack every month has changed? Into what? I mean, yes, now is the xorg and the gnome 3.2 but what about 2012? Or next May? Another 4 months between the packs just for Mint 13 to be ready?
Why not released the incoming repos in a monthly basis by following for those repos the "release when it's time, not when it's ready" dogma? After all, it is suggested for more experienced users than latest.

As i said before, i solved my problem by following sid repos, but my concerns are about LMDE in general.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby ElderDryas on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:05 pm

Well, I've had it with LMDE-XFCE. It has taken a year, but the following quote from another thread was the tipping point:

<quote>
Clem Says:
September 28th, 2011 at 3:24 pm

@Rovanion: We’ve always favored stability over security. If a security issue is important enough that it requires immediate action we can push it ourselves via the LM repos, or even trigger a new Update Pack just to pick it up.
</quote>

With the current lack of LMDE updates (of any kind) it's obvious that "we" are are not concerned with security to the level that I would expect of a major distro (let alone a "rolling distro"). I understand (and approve) the concept behind the "Latest" and "Incoming" tracks, but even that concept has fallen by the wayside, as LM12/Gnome3 has monopolized the LM Team to an unhealthy degree for everything else.

Now it's farewell to LMDE-XFCE...it's been a good but bumpy road, but it's time to "fish or cut bait", and the knife is out.

So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby viking777 on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:34 pm

Well I can understand the feelings here, in fact I even pre-empted them somewhat when I posted this back in August:

Suggestion.

It has been my experience that the majority of the problems that occur with LMDE happen when something is removed that shouldn't have been. So how to stop that happening? Well apt has had tools to do that since it was first invented it is called variously 'Upgrade' (apt-get) 'Safe Upgrade' (aptitude) 'Default Upgrade' (synaptic) or in Mintupdate it is not named at all (probably the best way!) but just enabled by unticking a box. For the purpose of this post I will call it a 'Safe Upgrade' because this is an easily understood English phrase and for the cautious amongst us it is a description that they would tend to be drawn to anyway.

For those of you who don't know the meaning of 'Safe Upgrade' here is the definition from the apt-get man page:

upgrade is used to install the newest versions of all packages
currently installed on the system from the sources enumerated in
/etc/apt/sources.list. Packages currently installed with new
versions available are retrieved and upgraded; under no
circumstances are currently installed packages removed, or packages
not already installed retrieved and installed. New versions of
currently installed packages that cannot be upgraded without
changing the install status of another package will be left at
their current version.



So if 'Safe-Upgrade' is adopted as the standard upgrade type for the 'cautious' user, a large proportion of updates will be carried out on a daily basis which is highly desirable for the reasons given above, but the troublesome 'removal' ones will not be carried out at all. The purpose of the update packs would then be to package these removal type upgrades into a 'pack' that deals with them in one go. This makes sense because on 99% of occasions the type of package upgrade that causes 'removals' are usually solved by waiting for additional dependencies to be updated anyway so the delayed release of these is a benefit not a hindrance.


I think that idea still holds water, it satisfies those worried about security because day to day updates are done on a day to day basis, it satisfies those worried over bandwidth limits for the same reason, and the update packs deal with the 'difficult' situations that occur but they are never too large and can be held as long as is necessary to make them stable. As far as I can see the only change necessary to make this happen is to change the default upgrade command from dist-upgrade to upgrade - which is not all that difficult.

I am sure, as is usual, I have missed something obvious that makes this a non starter, so OK tell me what it is?
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby MintFuriousUser on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:39 pm

Most LMDE users (both Gnome and Xfce) are very dissapointed by the lack of updates. Viking I believe you missed the point. We are not asking for 20 updates per day. We are just asking for an Update pack every month. We are not getting that. If we wanted 20 updates per day we would be using something else like arch or sabayon or gentoo or even fedora. We are using Mint cause we want stability and functionality but the system is so outdated that we are in huge security risk right now. Many people don't want to risk activating the sid repos cause this would surely cause stability problems. This is just not the way for users that are not experts. I believe most of the Mint users are not experts. I said most ok? The most annoying thing of all right now is the lack of official answers. Please someone from the Mint development team come and give us some answers. We are all very very dissapointed. Many people say "bye bye" and many people are thinking of choosing another distro day by day. I am just waiting for official answers for now so please don't ignore us
Last edited by MintFuriousUser on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby proxima_centauri on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:48 pm

LMDE is a work in progress. Clem needs to prioritize his time around the release of Linux Mint 12.
I don't speak for him but I assume work on the update packs will resume after the release of LM12.

What is the huge security risk update that needs to pushed through?
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby MintFuriousUser on Sun Nov 20, 2011 12:51 pm

Ok this does not answer the big question which is "when are we going to get updates?". I am not a hacker or a cracker but I know that outdated software has security issues. We have a heavily outdated system by now. Do you believe it is as safe as fedora 16 for example?
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby yaye on Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:03 pm

MintFuriousUser wrote:All LMDE users (both Gnome and Xfce) are very dissapointed by the lack of updates.


Speak for yourself and not all the rest of the LMDE users.
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