LMDE a sleeping distro?

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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby lmdeman on Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:41 pm

asymmetros wrote:PS: lmdeman, i am not sure that Clem is "working now on LMDE, especially on the KDE side". The KDE edition he prepares will be based in ubuntu. :(

In the blog http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1799 (July 2011) Clem stated:
The decision was taken to migrate our KDE and Fluxbox editions to LMDE. Going forward our project will support 2 desktops with a frozen Ubuntu base (Gnome and LXDE) and 4 desktops on top of a rolling Debian base (Gnome, KDE, Xfce and Fluxbox).

So I thought it was still the target, but maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby midnight gypsy on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:01 pm

Viking, I really liked what you said. Sure does makes sense. Not sure if Clem will agree. I will have to admit in my opion , I would rather see LMDE be the main distro of Linux Mint. I've never been a fan *buntu(s) based distros. But, I got to be honest, they work. And I am running the Ubuntutized version of Linux Mint w/Unity now. I've been a fan of Debian sid for a long time. But, was not used to the there are no updates in LMDE. It didn't feel right..lol. And using Sid repos with an ATI/Amd and gnome3 mix, just breaks a system for now. So I can understand their stand still right now. But, I will say because of LM. This long time KDE user. Is now a die hard Gnome fan.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby asymmetros on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:03 pm

See there http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1908 , post 15:
The KDE version we’re working on at the moment is Ubuntu-based. No decision was taken yet on whether this desktop edition was to be supported by


It is obvious that Clem cannot support all those different editions and desktops. I am wondering what he will decide. Though, i know that right now, he concentrates more to main edition/ -gnome and gnome forks.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby zombie on Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:15 pm

I'm getting tired of all the wining in this thread. Clem has said that LMDE will be updated when Gnome 3.2 is reasonable stable in testing.
3.2 has been in Sid for a couple of weeks now and seems stable there. It will probably appear in Testing shortly.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby ketoth on Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:59 pm

Yes I totally agree that stability is top priority. Less than security to me, as it has been said previously: Linux computers aren't hackers' main targets anyway and maximal security is for "forefront" computers, like website servers, not standard computers behind NATs, with closed ports and slow connections. Again, it's a lot easier to add a Windows machine in a botnet than a Linux one. So: keep cool, don't panic.

Of course I took a look at Gnome 3 and I think I can get used to it quite quickly, but I don't see it as a reason to take the risk to break some people's system just to have the newest thing: first 3.2 in testing, then see how it lives with LMDE. And only then push it to latest, making it as smooth for everybody as possible (some users are just lambda people unhappy of Windows 7 or just having too old hardware for it and wanting better than the dying Windows XP.. don't even mention the words "compiling" or "format-reinstall with new release" to them).

Gnome3 from my point of view it's about "cosmetics", things that can easily ruin an afternoon with crap like icon disappearance, panels messed up or fonts issues... for little advantages. No, there's just this important point: applications that use networking. Security issues of course, but as said it's not as critical as Windows machines (blame first all these corporations that based their workflow on Internet Explorer 6 and it's ActiveX sh*t.. and don't want to upgrade now and flood the internets because in DDoS-botnets now). But there's another point: improvements. New functionalities, better performances, enhanced privacy control and so on. Personally I use the official binaries of Firefox and Thunderbird 9, no problem (just ia32-libs to install, and here we go). Since I can compile and run then (clean and complete) without any sh*tstorm with dependencies and so on, and since Mozilla introduced a -very- quick release since the UP3, why not pushing them in the repos outside of the update packs ?

Also, I do think some people will get happy to see their hardware working natively with new kernels. :wink:
TL;DR:
"known stable and evolving quickly" = pushing outside UP
"unnecessary and/or known to break things easily" = pushing when it's deemed ready and stable
"security fix" = pushed in haste if über-critical only
"KDE, XFCE, Flux users" = pay attention to stability too when interface changes like Gnome 2 -> 3

Happy new year, to all users of "Keep Walking Forward But Not Fall Off The Cliff-Linux", previously known as LMDE :P
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby Red.Baron on Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:03 am

If LMDE a strolling distro I think its legs are broken. It would appear that the Mint team already bit off more than it can chew since it seems anytime there is trouble with the main version everything else gets left to rot. I have to agree with many of the previous post Mint hasn't delivered what I thought. Yes fine its free, but it takes time for us less capable linuxers to change things around I went to Mint because Mint seemed to have a excellent reputation, but they seems only to be for the Main addition.

Is there any alternative rolling distro that has all the "non-free" based on Debian. Basically what LMDE was advertised to be?
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby monkeyboy on Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:46 pm

If LMDE a strolling distro I think its legs are broken. It would appear that the Mint team already bit off more than it can chew since it seems anytime there is trouble with the main version everything else gets left to rot.

The needs of the many versus the needs of the few. Look at the usage numbers and guess who is likely end up sucking the hind tit.

I have to agree with many of the previous post Mint hasn't delivered what I thought. Yes fine its free, but it takes time for us less capable linuxers to change things around I went to Mint because Mint seemed to have a excellent reputation, but they seems only to be for the Main addition.

There are many fine alternatives to Mint and if one finds Mint so objectionable why not avail oneself of one of them?

Is there any alternative rolling distro that has all the "non-free" based on Debian. Basically what LMDE was advertised to be?

Here you go "Debian based rolling release distros" Google search presented 198,000 related results in less then a second, all you have to do is commit to a little reading on your own so you can avoid additional disappointment. Enjoy
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

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However doing it in public is really hardcore.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby craig10x on Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:56 pm

lmdeman wrote:
asymmetros wrote:PS: lmdeman, i am not sure that Clem is "working now on LMDE, especially on the KDE side". The KDE edition he prepares will be based in ubuntu. :(

In the blog http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1799 (July 2011) Clem stated:
The decision was taken to migrate our KDE and Fluxbox editions to LMDE. Going forward our project will support 2 desktops with a frozen Ubuntu base (Gnome and LXDE) and 4 desktops on top of a rolling Debian base (Gnome, KDE, Xfce and Fluxbox).

So I thought it was still the target, but maybe I'm wrong.


No...it changed...kde mint will be kubuntu based not debian testing based...Also i don't agree with those who say that LMDE should be the main mint edition with no ubuntu based version...would be a major mistake...lmde is not for everyone...i think the fact that 75% of mint users use main edition and only 10% use lmde should indicate which is more preferred...not everyone likes to have to tinker with their systems even it's only occassional (with regressions and breakages and the like)...
and certainly it would scare many newbies away...
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby asymmetros on Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:36 pm

Red.Baron wrote:If LMDE a strolling distro I think its legs are broken. It would appear that the Mint team already bit off more than it can chew since it seems anytime there is trouble with the main version everything else gets left to rot. I have to agree with many of the previous post Mint hasn't delivered what I thought. Yes fine its free, but it takes time for us less capable linuxers to change things around I went to Mint because Mint seemed to have a excellent reputation, but they seems only to be for the Main addition.

Is there any alternative rolling distro that has all the "non-free" based on Debian. Basically what LMDE was advertised to be?



Apart from pure Debian. i have tried Crunchbang, Mepis, Antix and Aptosid. All worked out of the box for the machine shown in my signature. Crunchbang and Mepis are based more or less in Debian Stable. Aptosid's target is to offer a more easy and "safe" way to run sid. Aptosid is a fork of the old Sidux, but now, Aptosid is forked too -by Siduction. :mrgreen: Problems? Who knows?
So, from those, i recommend Antix. It is based on Mepis, but it points to Debian testing. Although it comes with Fluxbox/Icewm, Xfce, KDE, Gnome are two clicks away, offered as specia; "metapackages".
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby lmdeman on Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:43 am

craig10x wrote:
lmdeman wrote:
asymmetros wrote:PS: lmdeman, i am not sure that Clem is "working now on LMDE, especially on the KDE side". The KDE edition he prepares will be based in ubuntu. :(

In the blog http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1799 (July 2011) Clem stated:
The decision was taken to migrate our KDE and Fluxbox editions to LMDE. Going forward our project will support 2 desktops with a frozen Ubuntu base (Gnome and LXDE) and 4 desktops on top of a rolling Debian base (Gnome, KDE, Xfce and Fluxbox).

So I thought it was still the target, but maybe I'm wrong.


No...it changed...kde mint will be kubuntu based not debian testing based....

Good to know it, I'm back to the ground now. I understand that most users are happy with the ubuntu based editions. My experience is different. I'm an early (and happy) LMDE adopter defecting from years of (pure) ubuntu madness, so for me Mint *is* LMDE but it's just me. I hope LMDE will never be discontinued, but in case I got the skill now (thanks to LMDE) to setup and maintain a friendly (pure) Debian desktop.

Happy new year!
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby asymmetros on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:33 am

Good to know it, I'm back to the ground now. I understand that most users are happy with the ubuntu based editions. My experience is different. I'm an early (and happy) LMDE adopter defecting from years of (pure) ubuntu madness, so for me Mint *is* LMDE but it's just me. I hope LMDE will never be discontinued, but in case I got the skill now (thanks to LMDE) to setup and maintain a friendly (pure) Debian desktop.



Exactly my thoughts... :wink:
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby Brian49 on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:52 am

As I see it, there's nothing at all wrong with LMDE if you just ignore the Update Packs and instead track one of the Debian repositories, as was the case when LMDE first started.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby viking777 on Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:42 am

Brian49 wrote:As I see it, there's nothing at all wrong with LMDE if you just ignore the Update Packs and instead track one of the Debian repositories, as was the case when LMDE first started.


That is absolutely true Brian and always has been. The problem is that when somebody downloads LMDE, what they get is LMDE latest with the update packs, and as far as they are concerned that is LMDE. They may not be aware that there are other ways to run it or have the will to change system files like 'sources.list' because they are not happy messing around with 'internals'. And if people are in that frame of mind then tracking 'testing' for example would probably not suit them anyway.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby Brian49 on Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:38 am

Viking - Yes, I see the difficulty for users who are new not just to LMDE but also to Linux. However, the folks who have been expressing concern here about the slowdown with Update Packs don't strike me as being unable to edit the sources file. Moreover, anyone can easily change the sources via the Software Sources GUI dialog. As to the question of which sources configuration is "really" LMDE, it's hard to see why it should matter all that much.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby davedarkblade on Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:12 pm

I agree with the philosophy of update-pack, release updates when they are safe, but that does not mean you should necessarily be so slow to release them. Are you afraid that the update of gnome can create problems? Then leave it aside. The latest version of Firefox works great? Then release only firefox. The update-pack may contain only a few software but also commonly used.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby GeneC on Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:48 pm

This thread just keeps going around in circles. To no point.
Its all been explained several times.
You have several options with LMDE. (I use them all, almost!) :lol:

If you want a rolling distro, track either Testing or SID repos (much has been posted on this).
Could these cause problems? Potentially, yes. Lots of upgrades, and some that could cause problems. Just follow the 'Testing' or 'SID' Breakages threads and you will be fine.

Want to play it safer. Track 'mint incoming-testing' or mint 'latest"
The aim with these two repos was to have approximately monthly updates packs that had been more or less tested.
The problem arose when Gnome 3.0 hit testing (poop hit the proverbial fan) :shock: Gnome 3.2 was not far behind (we all thought). That has not been the case. gnome 3.2 has been hung up in SID and there still only 95% all there.
The aim was to wait on Update Pack 4 until Gnome 3.2 was fully in testing. That is still several weeks away.
http://www.0d.be/debian/debian-gnome-3.2-status.html
Plus MATE and Cinnamon will be ported to LMDE
(see blog post)
http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1910#comments
Under the hood Cinnamon is forked from Gnome Shell and based on Mutter and Gnome 3. It’s already available for Linux Mint 12, Ubuntu 11.10, Fedora 16, OpenSUSE 12.1 and Arch Linux and will soon make its way (along with MGSE and MATE) to LMDE when Gnome 3.2 enters Debian Testing.


So I don't see the problem. There is none (other than the update pack will be HUGE). Possibly time (I know its soon) for a new re-spin?
If you want updates TODAY change repos. If not, wait patiently. You can see there is a LOT going on with Mint. Mint 12 Gnome with Mate, MGSE, Cinnamon, then Mint 12 KDE, next waiting for Gnome 3.2 to catch up in Debian.
I can see where this can be frustrating to some, but there really is little alternative.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby asymmetros on Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:20 pm

What things bothered/bothering me with UP's story and this thread?

First thing, disappointment. I am one of the first LMDE users and when update packs announced i saw them as something similar with Debian' s cut. My belief was that UP's had the potential to attract more and more users, targeting to people seeking for the best combination between relatively frequent upgrades and stability. I am not so optimistic any more: LMDE with UPs is more like the main editon, a distro with fixed releases (respins?), and many users, attracted by UP's, had left, disappointed too. The users seeking for fixed releases, will stick with main edition.
Second, yes, they are whiners, but it is not black or white. If someone disagrees with something or makes a “negative” comment, he must tell it -it's a feedback to the developers. Feedback does not mean “man, you are a god”. Unfortunately, some users around here, does not understand this and, acting as fanboys, keep calling every worried guy “whiner”. I am really annoyed with that kind of behavior.
Third, i am not very happy with Clem's reaction either. Agreed, he does a tremendous job and i do share the opinion that he 's trying to achieve so many things at once. The sad thing is that he behaves as like everything is perfect, even when he fails to deliver something. For example, he was kind enough to answer to this thread and to clarify a few things, but he did not say a word for the communication problem mentioned here from so many users (unknown upgrading scheme, wrong information regarding UP's frequency). But more important, since then, he did not mention anything in the blog explaining the situation with UP's or his general thoughts for LMDE's future (eg, KDE will not be based in LMDE finally -is he thinking to drop LMDE?).
How intuitive is for a user, regardless of his experience, to find out that he has to change his sources from latest to testing, in a freshly installed LMDE, in order to get regular upgrades? Let me offer a suggestion: i am dual-booting with archbang and after the installation, there was a simple, text file in the home folder, offering some additional advices and post-installation recommendations -they do not expect you to dig for this stuff in the forum. It will be nice if LMDE adopts ideas like that, cause as a result, the newcomer will feel more respected.

PS: Let's say that a Mint user has to use MGSE and Cinnamon instead of pure gnome shell, regardless his opinion of those. But what about a Xfce user? Why does he have to wait for gnome 3.2 to enter testing? That 's makes no sense. Except Clem has not much time -if he tells so, i ll support him. (The popular argument “gnome users are more” is rather funny, especially in a linux forum. With the same logic, why bother with Linux if windows have so many users?)
PS2: for the last two months, i keep suggesting to other people to change their repos to testing. Personally, i am not worried any more for this. As lmdeman said, i am back to the ground and i ll keep rolling regardless LMDE 's direction -and future. There is a distro for everyone, but a distro cannot please everyone.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby GeneC on Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:36 pm

asymmetros wrote:.............. Let me offer a suggestion: i am dual-booting with archbang and after the installation, there was a simple, text file in the home folder, offering some additional advices and post-installation recommendations -they do not expect you to dig for this stuff in the forum. It will be nice if LMDE adopts ideas like that, cause as a result, the newcomer will feel more respected............


That is a VERY good idea, asymmetros.
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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby Red.Baron on Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:09 pm

The needs of the many versus the needs of the few. Look at the usage numbers and guess who is likely end up sucking the hind tit.

You would think one would commit a more proportional division of time to the project even a litle time spent on LMDE would mean alot. Clem is as I understand not the only member of the team, one person could occasionally spend a little time updating LMDE not just have everyone 100% on the main edition. All this does is alienate users/customers Mint already have and tarnish its reputation, the old business adage says "it takes less to keep a customer than it takes to find a new one" kind of rings true here.

I'm have just become really disappointed in the distro and speaking my mind and was hoping someone could point me in the right direction. I could google and get 198 000 results in less than a second but one of those results would point here, and as you probably could guess that isn't what I'm looking for, I really don't want to have 197 999 more disappointing results.

asymmetros, thanks for the input.

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Re: LMDE a sleeping distro?

Postby Gerd50 on Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:13 pm

In October 2010 i installed LMDE with the intention to learn the Debian way. Ubuntu Jaunty, then Gloria, Helena didn't give
me much to learn after i understood the basics. Somehow they were perfect. With LMDE the largest hurdle for me was the
sources.list with the debian branches and the update/upgrade system. Once understood it was quite easy working with LMDE.
After squeeze went stable i had to learn Backup. And that was it.

I now think, the update pack policy of LMDE steals newcomers their own experience of the debian way. It makes people weird,
particulary the situation with frozen sources. Instead of learning a few things, they hope to get a stable system for which others
are responsible. They do not learn to carry personal responsibility for their OS. Somehow this is the MS way :(

I think, it would be better not to present each and everything on a silver tray, in order to do something for personal responsibility
with a Linux OS.
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