These Update Packs are still lacking some quality control

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These Update Packs are still lacking some quality control

Postby t3g on Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:10 pm

I recently updated to Update Pack 2 yesterday and the GTK3 issues still arise with the programs you have been warning us about for almost a month now. I still manually have to deslect updates for the system monitor, terminal, gdebi, and calculator. The bigger question is why should we?

The "Latest" repository is a snapshot that the Mint team takes and evaluates for a few weeks to make sure there are no breakages. Since the Mint team has total control of this repository, why not take total control of incompatible programs? Why not just replace the incompatible 3.0 versions of programs like the gnome-terminal with the older 2.30 ones until the Debian repositories and your themes are up to speed? I understand that the packages and quality of them in the vanilla Debian are lacking in comparison to Ubuntu due to the marketshare and a company backing them. Ubuntu 11.10 will fully support Gnome 3 and it is sad that the Debian team is ages behind in this.

In an ideal world, we would be pointing to these Mint specific repos because we expect a uniform experience. Requiring us to manually deselect items that shouldn't be there is actually a step back for this project and reminds me of something I would expdect in 2002, not 2011. I really would like LMDE to eventually replace the Ubuntu based ones, but it realistically cannot be done until the Mint team takes more control of their updates.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby thomasmc on Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:13 pm

Well, the update pack info does tell you which packages to ignore. All you have to do is click on them, and select "ignore", and you won't see them again.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby t3g on Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:24 pm

thomasmc wrote:Well, the update pack info does tell you which packages to ignore. All you have to do is click on them, and select "ignore", and you won't see them again.


Congrats on completely missing the point.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby sjonesy on Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:36 pm

kinda sad really, I enjoyed lmde xfce for a while before all this nonsense.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby zerozero on Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:42 pm

and it will only get worse, as more and more gtk3 libs enter testing (and no, there's not much the Mint team can do, apart from offering other DE as option, xfce anyone?).

But don't get me wrong here, what Clem&co are doing is amazing, you just can't stop the future and in GNOME-land gtk3 is the future;

anyway for now is only a theming disruption, is not that the pks are not working, they are, and as expected, things can get darker and then yes, incoming and latest will be useful to test the regressions and probably hold for a while pks until they are fully functional < whatever this means because from gtk2 to gtk3 a lot of things will change and what you think is now functional may not even be available in gtk3 as an option.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby Elmacus on Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:07 pm

I think we understand you t3g, but changing debians files meaning checking every file manually before enter new repo, means a lot of manpower. But Clem might do this in future I think, right now to much ubuntu stuff going on.

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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby t3g on Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:59 pm

I know this is a stretch, but what about a system adjustments file offered in the main packages.linuxmint.com for Debian that gets updated with each Update Pack and makes adjustments. Lets say that when Update Pack 3 comes out and if there are problems like this, the adjustments file enables the stable repository, makes sure the package(s) are being held back, and if an existing file is installed and blacklisted, downgrade to the stable package.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby rhodry on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:20 am

I know this is a stretch..........


A bit too much of a stretch IMHO. What you are basically asking for is Clem et al to turn LMDE into a 'stable' release. Well, that's not what it is, nor was it ever presented as such. It is a ROLLING RELEASE ! As such, you, the user, are expected to and should be able to participate in your own system's control & management. If you are not prepared to do so, do not use this release.

Clem has already done way more than I would expect of a developer in introducing the 'incoming/latest' concept. The problems in gtk are not lack of quality control by anybody - they are simply 'what happens' in a rolling release. The move from gtk2 to gtk3 is a MAJOR change in the fabric of many systems; far more so than the Gnome shell/Unity/Gnome2 desktop stuff. The fact that the impact thus far is primarily cosmetic is a tribute to those concerned, not a criticism.

In the meantime, you have to pay attention to what is getting updated and decide how best to time your updates for your best results, and, most importantly with ANY rolling release, you have to be patient & observant until the significance of these changes settles down.

If you are not prepared to do that then, I suggest, you have a number of options, particularly;

- run Linuxmint Standard Edition which will only catch these changes once every six month re-install cycle, or
- run something like Crunchbang or Mepis11 (staying Debian based), both of which are based on Debian Stable and will feel little or no impact from these changes for quite some time.

Come back to LMDE when the changes have settled.

I don't think Clem can do any more than is currently done with the available resources. Your call!!

cheers,
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby t3g on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:27 am

rhodry,

I understand that this is a rolling release where it updates MONTHLY and the packages are a MONTH old giving the Mint team a MONTH to look over the code, analyze, release a system adjustments file per MONTH to make sure s**t doesn't break. Right now, s**t is breaking.

I've been using LMDE on my main desktop since January and I am all for using it instead of having to format and reinstall every 6 months with the Ubuntu based ones. Someday want to install this for a family member or good friend and hope it is stable enough without them getting turned off by issues like these. Yes, I know they are cosmetic, but it can be confusing to some.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby wyrdoak on Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:16 am

I must be lucking out, and picked a theme that has not been hit yet. The only thing cosmetically I've been hit with is in gdm3 and I'll just keep the auto logon 'till something comes down the line. I do get a system beep on logon and logout, but everything seems to be working OK.

I did have a wonky mouse issue today, don't really think it was an update. Probably a gremlin just trying to move in. I had to go one line to the right to click on something, then it moved to one line underneath to click on it, just went into my mouse setting and retested the double click in the program, then rebooted and it all went away.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby bikrus on Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:15 am

Hi!

2 LMDE team:

Is it possible to auto-ignore packages in MintUpdate if they are not recommended to upgrade in Update Pack Info? So, when new Update Pack is "ready" and have some issues the end user will not be able to upgrade unstable packages. I say about "latest" repository. For "incoming" it's not necessary and even bad idea. But fo "latest"...

2 t3g:

Why you use Gnome? Do you know it's not ready in Debian (not stable)? If you want something stable - wait few monthes and use Ubuntu 11.10. If you use LMDE or Debian (not stable) - you should be prepared for issues. But in case of LMDE or Debian you and other could help community to make things better by test new packages or even develop patches.

Personally I don't feel myself so confident as I was using Ubuntu. But the feeling of community make me switch totally to LMDE. And yes - I'm ready for issues. Even in "latest" repository.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby grizzler on Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:59 am

t3g wrote:I understand that this is a rolling release where it updates MONTHLY and the packages are a MONTH old giving the Mint team a MONTH to look over the code, analyze, release a system adjustments file per MONTH to make sure s**t doesn't break.

But they aren't a month old. Read what Clem wrote about this: viewtopic.php?f=187&t=76854#p451097
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby t3g on Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:27 am

bikrus,

I installed the Gnome version before the XFCE was available. I also manually installed LXDE, which I really like with the Katya LXDE themes and icons. I never really liked XFCE's look and actually prefer LXDE.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby kaizer on Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:01 am

If you are not prepared to do that then, I suggest, you have a number of options, particularly;

- run Linuxmint Standard Edition which will only catch these changes once every six month re-install cycle, or
- run something like Crunchbang or Mepis11 (staying Debian based), both of which are based on Debian Stable and will feel little or no impact from these changes for quite some time.

Come back to LMDE when the changes have settled.



I would have add as a solution to simply move your LMDE repos to debian stable.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby rhodry on Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:42 am

@t3g
I understand your points, and I guess to some extent, your frustration,

and hope it is stable enough without them getting turned off by issues like these. Yes, I know they are cosmetic, but it can be confusing to some.


but, my point was not about how often the updates are done, rather that it is a 'rolling release' of sorts and as such will break things from time to time.

There is NO rolling release that does not break in some measure from time to time. It is their very nature to do so! All I am saying is that Clem et al do a VERY decent job of minimizing those occurrences both in their frequency and severity. If you ( the generic 'you') are not prepared to handle this then do not run rolling releases. If you want stable run Debian Stable or one of its derivative distros.

This quote is from a recent discussion along similar lines on the Debian Forum:

Just because a particular app has no glaring bugs does not mean it will necessarily play nice with all the other packages on any given system. The amount of work involved in making sure it all works well, all works together, and is always the latest version should not be underestimated.

....
If you want rolling & the latest versions (including version issues and bugs) run Sid, if you want rolling (mostly) that works well (mostly) run Testing. If you want a system that just works run Stable.
If you want something else, RUN SOMETHING ELSE!


That's why Debian Stable is only released every 2 years or so. LMDE & its variations are a compromise where some stability is foregone for application timeliness. Same as Arch, PCLinuxOS and many other 'rolling releases'. They all have different approaches to maintain this balance and complaining to the developers to make things "more stable" is, in my opinion, a waste of energy.

cheers,
rhodry.

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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby rhodry on Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:53 am

@kaizer

I would have add as a solution to simply move your LMDE repos to debian stable.


Actually, this is the one thing I would recommend people not do!

It is possible to do (many have I know); provided; you use an iso produced earlier this year and make the conversion before you do an update. Let me tell you for nothing, if you try to do this with the "new" iso that is coming in the near future, you are asking for a swag of pain.

If folk are complaining about 1000+ updates coming forward from the old iso; I can guarantee you trying to take a 1000+ updates BACKWARDS will be a nightmare. So, this strategy will only exist until the new iso is produced - or more correctly, until the old isos are removed.

Much better to deal with going forward than backward - been there done that got the teashirt! :)

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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby secipolla on Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:01 am

My God!
What a burden Clem and the team must endure...
C'mon Ubuntu fanboys go use Ubuntu or LM based on it.

Stop complaining and whining will ya? Maybe try to study and think a bit before writing? Maybe you can even help a little bit afterwards.

I'm using Debian with GNOME 3 for more than a month now.
If you people want your gtk3 apps themed then use the Adwaita theme or just tweak it so it blends with Mint themes (replace blue for green).

The OP really doesn't know what he's talking about (if he did discover I don't know as I didn't bother to read the rest of the crap).
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby thomasmc on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:45 am

t3g wrote:Congrats on completely missing the point.


Congrats on being a complete a-hole. I installed them, and don't have any problem. If you are so disturbed by such little things, perhaps you should try a different distribution.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby sjonesy on Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:58 pm

they are simply 'what happens' in a rolling release

Imho it doesn't excuse the issues. Yes there is an expectation of issues with a rolling release, I just think the debian devs could do a much better job of quality control, smacks of laziness when they dont.

It isnt about ubu vs debian either because at the moment debian is the one having problems, and they need to fixed upstream, not relying on the community to reverse engineer them.
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Re: These Update Packs are still lacking some quality contro

Postby zerozero on Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:46 pm

sjonesy wrote: I just think the debian devs could do a much better job of quality control

ohh but they do! that's because they do that LMDE is based off of debian testing (where things are tested and debugged for further inclusion in the next stable release;
and they do more, they have unstable and experimental branches to test earlier on the dev process, before the pkgs are ported to testing;
now if you really want that ultimate quality control, you have to look here http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/6.0.2.1/ and enjoy an almost bug-free OS;

sjonesy wrote:because at the moment debian is the one having problems, and they need to fixed upstream, not relying on the community to reverse engineer them.

that's where, i'm sorry to say, you are wrong! no dev releases a bug v. of his/her software just because he/she wants, and yes must be the community to pin-point those issues so the bugs are reported and fixed, and for the record, again, the subject's thread is not about bugs.
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