UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

deb http://debian.linuxmint.com/incoming testing main contrib non-free
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby asermax on Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:12 pm

in the update manager the button "show for individual files" does not work anymore, see screenshot below. You can push it hundreds of time, but nothing will happen.
...
By the way, while using GIMP to generate the image, I noticed that somthing similar happens in the "Save as" window. It is not possible to chose a different location or to choose the file extension.

Can anybody confirm what I saw in UM and GIMP?


Is not that itsn't working, is that the little plus sign is for some reason placed with a considerable vertical offset, so the "click response area" doesn't cover it. But if you click on the text instead of the collapse/expand button, it works just fine. It probably has something to do with the gtk updates.

And a little advice for those that did the whole update, to find out at the end that a lot of things didn't work and have no clue from where to start investigating which package broke what, i find useful to do partial updates of 50 packages more or less (rebooting after important ones like gtk, grub, udev, etc), so i can pinpoint the problems and the responsible packages more easily. It's a little more time consuming, but i think it's worth the extra work so your system doesn't render unusable.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby viking777 on Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:34 pm

And a little advice for those that did the whole update, to find out at the end that a lot of things didn't work and have no clue from where to start investigating which package broke what, i find useful to do partial updates of 50 packages more or less (rebooting after important ones like gtk, grub, udev, etc), so i can pinpoint the problems and the responsible packages more easily. It's a little more time consuming, but i think it's worth the extra work so your system doesn't render unusable.


That is 100% true. But think about it a little bit, what is the point of using update packs if you have to break them down into smaller 'more manageable' pieces? You might as well just track 'testing' which will do that for you automatically (because it only updates a dozen or so packages each day). I am sorry to say it, but to me it appears that this update pack idea in its present form is a failure because users are forced to work around its shortcomings as described above.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby xircon on Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:56 pm

viking777 wrote:
And a little advice for those that did the whole update, to find out at the end that a lot of things didn't work and have no clue from where to start investigating which package broke what, i find useful to do partial updates of 50 packages more or less (rebooting after important ones like gtk, grub, udev, etc), so i can pinpoint the problems and the responsible packages more easily. It's a little more time consuming, but i think it's worth the extra work so your system doesn't render unusable.


That is 100% true. But think about it a little bit, what is the point of using update packs if you have to break them down into smaller 'more manageable' pieces? You might as well just track 'testing' which will do that for you automatically (because it only updates a dozen or so packages each day). I am sorry to say it, but to me it appears that this update pack idea in its present form is a failure because users are forced to work around its shortcomings as described above.


Agreed. Less important packages should be let through to 'incoming' guinea pigs, perhaps holding back more 'important' updates (kernel, GCC etc), to once a month, then we can test the viability of the updates. I was swamped and had to install in chunks, until it became more manageable.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby asermax on Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:09 pm

Agreed. Less important packages should be let through to 'incoming' guinea pigs, perhaps holding back more 'important' updates (kernel, GCC etc), to once a month, then we can test the viability of the updates. I was swamped and had to install in chunks, until it became more manageable.


I second that :D
Although i had no big problems until now with the current metodology, i do spend a lot of time when the update packs are released. Doing like xircon says would make the testing process more smooth and the problems more easy to detect.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby kmb42vt on Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:32 pm

asermax wrote:
in the update manager the button "show for individual files" does not work anymore, see screenshot below. You can push it hundreds of time, but nothing will happen.
...
By the way, while using GIMP to generate the image, I noticed that somthing similar happens in the "Save as" window. It is not possible to chose a different location or to choose the file extension.

Can anybody confirm what I saw in UM and GIMP?


Is not that itsn't working, is that the little plus sign is for some reason placed with a considerable vertical offset, so the "click response area" doesn't cover it. But if you click on the text instead of the collapse/expand button, it works just fine. It probably has something to do with the gtk updates.

And a little advice for those that did the whole update, to find out at the end that a lot of things didn't work and have no clue from where to start investigating which package broke what, i find useful to do partial updates of 50 packages more or less (rebooting after important ones like gtk, grub, udev, etc), so i can pinpoint the problems and the responsible packages more easily. It's a little more time consuming, but i think it's worth the extra work so your system doesn't render unusable.


Not seeing this with LMDE 64 bit running the Mint-X-Metal theme. The theme is slightly modified in that I set the theme's CSS to follow system font sizes rather than having them fixed at 9 and changed the colors a bit. What I have found using the default theme is that the '+' is so small that I often miss hitting it and, as you say, it's easier to just click on the text.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby kmb42vt on Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:06 pm

viking777 wrote:
And a little advice for those that did the whole update, to find out at the end that a lot of things didn't work and have no clue from where to start investigating which package broke what, i find useful to do partial updates of 50 packages more or less (rebooting after important ones like gtk, grub, udev, etc), so i can pinpoint the problems and the responsible packages more easily. It's a little more time consuming, but i think it's worth the extra work so your system doesn't render unusable.


That is 100% true. But think about it a little bit, what is the point of using update packs if you have to break them down into smaller 'more manageable' pieces? You might as well just track 'testing' which will do that for you automatically (because it only updates a dozen or so packages each day). I am sorry to say it, but to me it appears that this update pack idea in its present form is a failure because users are forced to work around its shortcomings as described above.


Please excuse the longish comment:

It appears to me that it's not so much a failure of the Update Packs but more that it's right back to the old problem of too many different hardware configurations (thousands? millions?). It's the same when updating any OS of any type. In the case of Linux Mint (any version) it doesn't matter if it's based on Ubuntu which only receives mainly bug fixes and security updates for 18 months (3 years for LTS), or based on Debian testing or the new Update Packs. No matter how you update your OS, no matter what OS it happens to be, many users are guaranteed to have some sort of breakage due to everyone's hardware configurations being different.

For example, my wife and I have the exact same 2 year old Gateway desktops with the "exact same" hardware configuration and they both react differently to updates. Why? Because one of these Gateways has a motherboard made by one manufacturer and the other has the "exact same" motherboard made by a different manufacturer. Same MB, same types of components but there's no standard as to who makes those components. Same goes for the Nvidia GT 430 video cards installed. Same model video card, two different manufacturers. And this is just an example of two desktop PCs, same make, same model by the same manufacturer, both coming off the same assembly line (maybe) in the same year (2009).

Now add in all the different types of PCs. All the different manufacturers. All the different model years. All the myriads of different components in all sorts of different configurations, etc, etc. It's amazing that the major OSs work at all let alone survive updates. :lol:

If there was just one type of each class of personal type computer all made from the exact same components by the exact same manufacturer, all held to strict standards then there wouldn't be any problems with updates would there? 8)

So no and with all due respect, I have to disagree. Update Packs are in no way a failure simply because they face the same age old problem (in computer years) of having to update the same OS running on countless different hardware configurations. In that, Update Packs are simply another way to update an OS. A better one than most especially in the world of GNU/Linux.

Okay, I'm done now. Thank you for your patience. :D
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby kruijf on Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:10 pm

I saw that for incoming you also must change the security and multimedia to debian.linuxmint. Is that also if you are pointing to latest?
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby kmb42vt on Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:30 pm

kruijf wrote:I saw that for incoming you also must change the security and multimedia to debian.linuxmint. Is that also if you are pointing to latest?


Nope, it's not. So you don't have to change anything if you're getting your updates from "latest". Changing "security" and "multimedia" over to debian.linuxmint is only for those who are hooked into the "incoming" repositories for testing purposes. Once the final version of LMDE is released then the "latest" repositories will be set accordingly.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby kruijf on Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:34 pm

so in the future we go to debian.linuxmint on latest to? that whas what i wanted to know.
But forgot "future" in my post before.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby kmb42vt on Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:24 pm

kruijf wrote:so in the future we go to debian.linuxmint on latest to? that whas what i wanted to know.
But forgot "future" in my post before.
Thanks


Yup, that's what I believe is going to happen. Once LMDE final is released I would expect that those who are running the RC and pointed to "latest" will be advised to change 'security' and 'multimedia' over to 'debian.linuxmint' (latest) as well. Sorry I didn't pick up on your meaning earlier. That's what I get for mowing the grass during a thunderstorm. :D
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby kruijf on Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:31 pm

No problem at all, mowing the grass can do strange things whit a person.
I'm using LMDE since the begining and pointing to latest, i think its a good thing to have debian.linuxmint on security also.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby zerozero on Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:45 pm

if i may my two cents worth on this, i also don't believe that the balance between testing, incoming and latest atm is ideal;
as Clem wrote, this is all brand new, so most probably a few tweeks will be made (well, one was already: the inclusion of security and multimedia in the mint mirrored repos)
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby GeneC on Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:02 pm

zerozero wrote:if i may my two cents worth on this, i also don't believe that the balance between testing, incoming and latest atm is ideal;
as Clem wrote, this is all brand new, so most probably a few tweeks will be made (well, one was already: the inclusion of security and multimedia in the mint mirrored repos)


Yes. I agree "ZZ".

It much too early to make a judgement on this whole process yet. I am sure the team is going to look at all the feedback, and make adjustments as needed.

I started tracking "incoming testing" but basically got bored with nothing much going on in between the monthly update packs. Plus the fact that the packs where so huge. Much more interesting, and I believe easier to track "testing" and do daily updates. Testing has been relatively trouble free. Seemingly less problems than the "update packs", but I assume some "adjustments" to the whole process will coming.
Its a "Work in Progress".
Give it time. :wink:
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby viking777 on Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:23 am

kmb42vt

Whilst I agree that differing hardware has been and always will be a problem for upgrading computers, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the problem that has been created by the Update Packs method. That problem is simply package overload and not hardware variability. My last update pack gave me 569 upgrades in one go - that just is not sensible on any machine at any time, particularly not if you happen to have a low capped broadband connection which I sometimes do. In my mind this situation fits firmly into the definition of 'failure' However,

Gene C
I agree with your analysis that this is a work in progress so I would like to amend my original statement to - it is a failure in its present form - so much of a failure for me that I am changing my sources back to testing this morning. It is not something I want to do, I would very much like to help out in testing the 'incoming' repos but it is just no feasible for me to do that and I don't have time to wait for improvements.

So how to improve things?

Xircon's comment from a few posts back posting.php?mode=reply&f=187&t=80386#pr468947 would be one way. Weekly update packs would be another (this doesn't mean you have to feed them into 'latest' every week, you produce your weekly update leave it in 'incoming' for a month for testing and then move it to 'latest'). Scrap the whole update pack idea and build an LMDE version based around Debian stable with backports instead is another way, and finally what about looking at other update models? I use PClinux as well as Mint and that is a rolling release, it is up to date (for instance it had FF6, LMDE still has FF5), it NEVER swamps me with upgrades, today there were none, yesterday about 5, and it is incredibly stable. So how does Texstar do it? (that is not a rhetorical question, I actually don't know). I know it is not based on Debian (it originally came out of Mandriva but I don't think it has much to do with that now) and it uses rpm package management, but like LMDE it is run by a very small team (almost one man) and works superbly well - so learn the secret.

Anyway, sadly I am off to change my sources back to testing now, out of necessity not desire, because, for me, the update pack method in its present form has failed.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby xircon on Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:51 am

Viking, completely agree. Thing is I can't remember my old settings :oops: Where can I find the settings for testing?
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby zerozero on Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:54 am

here ya go xircon

amadeu@amadeu ~ $ inxi -r
Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian main upstream import backport romeo
deb-src http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian main upstream import backport romeo #Added by software-properties
deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free
deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org testing main non-free
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian testing main contrib non-free
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby xircon on Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:57 am

Here goes nothing - see you on the tracking testing thread ;)
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby viking777 on Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:58 am

Well here is mine - not saying they are perfect but they work for me (ignore the ppa's if you don't need those).

deb http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian main upstream import romeo backport
deb-src http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian main upstream import romeo backport #Added by software-properties
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian testing main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free
deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org testing main non-free
deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/mozillateam/fi ... ext/ubuntu natty main
deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/danielrichter2 ... zer/ubuntu maverick main


BTW the reason I found them so easily is that I kept a copy of them (/etc/apt/sources.list.testing) when I initially changed to 'incoming'. Likewise I now have a file called /etc/apt/sources.list.incoming for if I ever decide to change back again.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby xircon on Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:08 am

Perhaps we should start a "share your sources" thread ;)

156mb on upgrade, will be a few more on dist-upgrade. Downloading now.
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Re: UPDATE PACK 3 FEEDBACK THREAD

Postby Helmsdeeper on Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:10 am

Other than the click area problem m4daredsun mentioned, I am glad to report update pack 3 is working fine on both my netbook and laptop.
One positive to report on my laptop (Toshiba A205) is suspend is working with the 3.0 kernel, whereas 2.6.39 it didn't. Worked with 2.6.38 also....
Anyway, kudos to everyone involved.
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