Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stable?

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Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stable?

Postby mxmaniac on Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:47 am

How come there isn't a version of linux mint debian edition based on the Debian stable?

I really like linux mint, its my favorite distro out of 10+ I've tried, but I'm just a little bit concerned primarily about any possible security holes that may open up in the experimental or testing builds of debian used for linux mint. Would feel better if I could have linux mint based on debian stable. However I am totally new to linux and just learning, so is this even a valid concern?
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby xenopeek on Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:55 am

There is a Debian testing security team: http://testing-security.debian.net/. As per the Debian FAQ, if you need a stable server you are recommended to stay on Debian stable. Linux Mint is not intended for server use, it's intended for desktop and laptop use primarily. Hence Debian testing as a branch is acceptable, as main edition of Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu which pulls most of its packages from Debian testing also.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby Monsta on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:46 am

mxmaniac wrote:Would feel better if I could have linux mint based on debian stable.

Then change LMDE's sources list to point to Debian Stable repositories, update the system and have it.
It should be done right after the installation from the latest ISO (201303), before any updates.

mxmaniac wrote:However I am totally new to linux

Then you certainly should use the main edition of Mint, it's Ubuntu-based and more newbie-friendly.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby saad1gamer on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:14 am

I too wish to use LMDE based on Debian stable. I am currently using Linux Mint 13 Cinnamon and I love it. But I wish to use LMDE too, instead of Debian Wheezy because I like the looks of Mint. So I wish to base LMDE on Debian stable. There is no tutorial and information on your site to do this. Would some good soul post complete and perfect instructions on how to convert LMDE on Debian stable properly?
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby xenopeek on Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:20 am

Sooner or later, using Debian stable with LMDE is going to run you into problems. You'd still be using the Linux Mint repository for getting Cinnamon or MATE, and those will shift to follow Debian testing, so eventually you're going to have unresolvable dependency problems.

If you want Debian stable, just use Debian stable.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby gryphon on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:23 pm

mxmaniac wrote:I'm just a little bit concerned primarily about any possible security holes that may open up in the experimental or testing builds of debian used for linux mint


IMHO the testing repository is stable enough for everyday use, unless you're running a server and want to be better safe than sorry.

In Debian, stable is "stable" but the price to pay is severely outdated software. The experimental repository is where new packages (alpha versions, under development) go, and is not used in any Debian version. These packages are then moved to unstable. When packages are considered free of release-critical bugs they are moved to testing. And only after a much longer time to stable. Anyway I've been running Debian unstable for years and never had security problems.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby MALsPa on Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:50 pm

I'm another one who would prefer a Stable-based LMDE over the Testing-based one. "Outdated software" isn't much of an issue here. I do run Debian Stable anyway. The fact that LMDE is based on Testing is the main thing that turned me away from LMDE.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby clfarron4 on Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:39 pm

I see installing Cinnamon 2.0 and MATE 1.6 being a problem here...
Problems? Tell us EXACTLY what you've done and what you expected to happen, IN DETAIL. That will save us questions, and we should get along better,

I have dysgraphia. This means I might have understood you incorrectly through no fault of my own.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby Monsta on Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:50 am

saad1gamer wrote:Would some good soul post complete and perfect instructions on how to convert LMDE on Debian stable properly?

:D I don't think there are any "complete and perfect instructions" out there. There are very few people who use this setup, and all their experience can be found in two or three last pages of this thread.

On the other hand, that thread is outdated: people stopped writing anything there before the latest LMDE ISO came out in March 2013. Some information can still be relevant though.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby kurotsugi on Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:37 am

there's a safe method to convert LMDE to debian testing but it can only done when testing enter bug fixing stage when almost all of the package freezed.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby xenopeek on Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:03 am

kurotsugi wrote:there's a safe method to convert LMDE to debian testing

Yup, however OP wants to go to Debian stable :)
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby kurotsugi on Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:17 am

what I mean in previous post is convert LMDE to debian stable. sorry for the missunderstanding.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby mandrake88 on Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:06 am

u don't need to worry about stable-testing in a desktop enviroment. Thats important when u are setting up a server, in that case u shouldn't be using mint. Debian stable is not the best choice for a desktop env, u will need to wait A LOT in order to get the newer version of your software (and by the time u get them, they will be outdated again...). Maybe u will get a better idea with this example:

Lastest libre office oficial release in libreoffice.org: 4.1.4 (4.2 is on beta)
Libre office in debian-testing: 4.1.4
Libre office in lmde up7: 4.0.3
Libre office in debian-stable: 3.5.4 (released in may 2012)

Using mint+debian stable it have little to non sense imo, if you really NEED debian stable, then u don't want to have mint because u will be loosing the goal of using the stable branch. Maybe u are getting the wrong idea of what debian testing is, testing is not beta/unstable software, packages in testing are far more stable and secure that lets say... window$ or crapbuntu. Testing is pefectly fine for desktop env (not for servers).
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby mxmaniac on Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:42 pm

Thanks for all the input. I think I'll probably use both. Linux mint for the occasions when I need the latest software, and debian stable (with cinnamon) for the general stuff where older software is fine.

One question about the whole server issue. When people are talking about linux mint not being good as a server, just what type of server are they talking about? Are they talking a major public and business servers, or simple small home servers as well?

I'm interested setting up my first server, primarily for learning purposes. I don't want it to be a dedicated server, but rather a personal desktop which can also serve as a file server when I'm not at home, as well as run security camera software like zoneminder which I can access remotely, and perhaps my own private web page (which would be intended just for me, likely have a password to gain access, but would technically be public).

For simple private personal server tasks like that, is mint generally accepted as secure, or should that sort of activity only be done on debian stable?
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby xenopeek on Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:52 pm

It's fine to use Linux Mint on a home server, but even then to me it makes more sense to use a server distro.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby mandrake88 on Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:09 pm

mxmaniac wrote:For simple private personal server tasks like that, is mint generally accepted as secure, or should that sort of activity only be done on debian stable?


Is like asking if u can setup a server using windows7, yes u can, but u probably want to use windows server 2008, same is with linux. Can you setup a server with mint? yes, but u probably want to use CentOS or Debian-stable.
Is not a matter of security only, mint is not "unsecure", is just not built for be a server distro, it have too many packages and things that u won't need, a clean mint instalation can use over 500mb of ram, while a clean CentOS instalation uses around 40mb of ram.

For work, learn or share some file to some other of your computers u can use mint, for example i have a lamp server (apache, php, mysql) installed on my mint system that i use for work, but that is not going to be a production server that is going to be live on the internet, is just for test my work in a local enviroment. Sometimes i enable a ftp server for access my files if i'm not going to be at home, but that is far from be a real server.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby KBD47 on Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:43 pm

There seems to be an impression that Debian Stable is only for servers, there are lots of people who use it as a sort of unbreakable desktop OS also. The advantage of using Mint LMDE or other Debian spins is that you don't have to add all the non-free stuff like flash and audio and video codecs.
I have setup LMDE as Stable, but it only works at certain LMDE releases close to when Debian Stable was released. And there are issues with apt-pinning and changing sources. It is at this point easier just to install Debian Stable and add the codecs.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby MALsPa on Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:59 pm

mandrake88 wrote:Debian stable is not the best choice for a desktop env, u will need to wait A LOT in order to get the newer version of your software (and by the time u get them, they will be outdated again...).

That really depends on the user's priorities. For me (and for many others), Debian Stable is the best choice for desktop use.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby SeparateLawyer on Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:46 pm

MALsPa wrote:
mandrake88 wrote:Debian stable is not the best choice for a desktop env, u will need to wait A LOT in order to get the newer version of your software (and by the time u get them, they will be outdated again...).

That really depends on the user's priorities. For me (and for many others), Debian Stable is the best choice for desktop use.

Perhaps that is so. At the moment I would think that it is correct.

At least I can state that in my case I prefer Debian Stable or LMDE Stable whether it's for a server or not for a server. Why? It is not merely personal preference, but it is also regarded as honestly, objectively and as reasonably as possible, with the inclusion of prudence. Let me put it like this: what is necessary at least (at least generally) regarding an OS is stability, security, efficiency and effectivity (and perhaps very strongly even the luxury of leaving the system alone, not having to maintain or update it as if one is an administrator but rather use it for what it is intended for which is completing other tasks). Such a system can be utilized well in cases of desktop systems and of servers. In enough cases (for example in those where one must use typical office software) something such as Debian Stable or LMDE Stable is sufficient. Furthermore, one doesn't always need the latest features of software. What could possibly be wanted or desired in regard to web browsing and office software, as these two are currently generally in order? Are included security, capacity, efficiency, effectivity, stability not sufficient? What is one going to do in using office sofware but writing and the like? Surfing: what else but surfing the web, logging in, etcetera, with tight security and so forth? Does it not do the job already in this day and age? If it does the job and if it is stable and secure and so forth, why even change it, unless the change-to-come concerns critical security updates? Perhaps it is some sort of human greed or the unnecessary desire for toys?

Since LMDE is much more user-friendly compared to Debian Stable, and it should be clear what is meant by that obvious term which is generally that the user is not required at all to mess around like an expert or having to fight and seek things out like a serious Linux hobbyist and that typically graphical interfaces are used and not command line interfaces, LMDE Stable should be preferred.

In any case, therefore, at least in the cases of typical or average desktop use, LMDE Stable is very desirable, especially since it would probably require less maintenance from the developers. In fact, to continue, one could easily think that LMDE Stable is perhaps the one OS that is truly user-friendly, stable, secure, efficient, and so forth, especially if given proper care, and that it is the one OS that trumps the others in regard to typical or average computer desktop use. It may be rightly chosen by the casual or typical user and even by the more experienced who can do their things. (For certain specialist functions with Windows or Mac software, one should of course use Windows or Mac instead or have such a system handy next to one's Linux system.)

I have sought much and I have read much on this forum and other places, and I must state that I very much desire the existence of LMD Stable (without the 'E') properly and critically maintained. In fact, 'LMD Stable' ('LMDS') looks and sounds very right and should really be the main Linux Mint edition. This is not necessarily because of my preference (so it's not because I want it), but because of its obvious necessity to exist and be taken good care of.

***************


On another note, I don't mind going reasonably deep regarding computers, OSs and the like (ever since I was a kid). Simultaneously, I don't have time and I do not feel like having to jump through hoops whatever OS I choose. I would have installed and used Debian Stable, but unfortunately the GRUB installation (and also LILO's) failed which was like a slap in the face. I would have installed GRUB separately and manually, but that's just another issue to be added which I don't feel like carrying out at the moment.

Furthermore, reading posts on this forum regarding possibilities of damaging an LMDE system because of an update pack relocates my desire to use it to a place where the thought "I don't want to mess around and be angry" reigns.
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Re: Why isn't there a Linux Mint Debian based on Debian Stab

Postby psql on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:26 pm

That really depends on the user's priorities. For me (and for many others), Debian Stable is the best choice for desktop use.[/quote]
Perhaps that is so. At the moment I would ....

I agree with you 100%, updates only bring problems, stability should be first. A mix of Debian stable and mint sounds too good to be true!
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