Question re LMDE from Info page

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Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby tlcmd on Thu May 01, 2014 11:28 am

I'm not exactly a newbie and have been running Linux Mint since before the Debian Edition was released. I have found LMDE to run well and my chief problems have been technical when installing 3rd party hardware.

[b]My Question: Why does the LMDE download site give this info:

LMDE requires a deeper knowledge and experience with Linux, dpkg and APT.
Debian is a less user-friendly/desktop-ready base than Ubuntu. Expect some rough edges.[
/b]

I have found LMDE to be very user friendly and no rough edges. It is simple to install and essentially intuitive to run. Much easier than Windows 7 or 8.

I've had at least one person "turned off" of even trying LMDE and switching to Vista because of the above.

Thanks,
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby woodsman on Thu May 01, 2014 11:43 am

I agree! :)

We are using LMDE as our base with helping private users migrate from XP. These users are not computer savvy and they don't notice any difference.

I vote for deleting those lines. Just say that LMDE is based on Debian Testing with controlled updates.
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby kurotsugi on Thu May 01, 2014 11:56 am

I beg to differ. when LMDE got into trouble we'll need to use those tools to fix it. mint main version also easier to maintain and more stable compared to LMDE. if anyone without linux experience want to migrate from XP, IMO mint main version is the best choice for them. LMDE is for a lil bit more advanced linux user.
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby Distro-Don on Thu May 01, 2014 1:29 pm

kurotsugi wrote:I beg to differ. when LMDE got into trouble we'll need to use those tools to fix it. mint main version also easier to maintain and more stable compared to LMDE. if anyone without linux experience want to migrate from XP, IMO mint main version is the best choice for them. LMDE is for a lil bit more advanced linux user.

I don't consider myself an advanced user and I think that LMDE is the way to go. I have tried LM13, LM14, LM15, LM16 and LMDE. I think that Clem should concentrate more on LMDE.
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby kurotsugi on Thu May 01, 2014 1:58 pm

I have tried LM13, LM14, LM15, LM16

the experience you got from that process might not makes you an advanced user but it's advanced enough to use LMDE :3
my point is that even the required skill and knowledge isn't high but user with near zero linux experience need to adapt theirselves with linux. as a fellow LMDE user you might have experienced the rought UP transition. I'm just hoping that by using main version as a stepping stone, we can avoid new user got disapointed by linux.

just my two cent :3
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby martywd on Thu May 01, 2014 2:05 pm

tlcmd wrote:
My Question: Why does the LMDE download site give this info:

LMDE requires a deeper knowledge and experience with Linux, dpkg and APT.
Debian is a less user-friendly/desktop-ready base than Ubuntu. Expect some rough edges.

Actually I don't think this goes far enough. Added to the above warning should be something to that affect that:

Extensive experience with the commandline terminal interface is a must!

Case in point, the recent flurry of posts regarding howto do 'gvfs' upgrades (without breaking something) necessary for some cameras and other plugin hardware to actually work in LMDE 2014...

Peruse this search if you doubt: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Ahttp%3 ... +gvfs&t=lm
.
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby py-thon on Thu May 01, 2014 2:34 pm

martywd wrote:Extensive experience with the commandline terminal interface is a must!.

I think that's a bit exaggerated and the rough edges in most cases can be easily softened.
But LMDE doesn't work for the majority of computer users who is either not willing or too stupid to learn. The vast majority of computer users knows how to press the power button and where to find the five most important programs (of which they can use about 5 % of the functions) but nothing more. A lot of them don't even know what the right mouse button is for. Mint's update manager for them is on the verge of being too complicated. Sounds harsh but that's the way it is.
The minority who is willing to learn - and mostly it's just learning by doing - is quite content with LMDE.
Tower: Sparky 64 bit Mate+mintmenu - Netbook: LMDE Mate 32bit
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby woodsman on Thu May 01, 2014 3:48 pm

Extensive experience with the commandline terminal interface is a must!

We purposely hide the terminal on the LMDE systems we install. :) We add nominal tweaking to the desktop. The users are non technical, non computer savvy, ordinary point-and-click users. All migrating from XP. The only access users have to the terminal is in the Administration submenu. They can use the terminal if they want but they have no need nor desire.

Growing Linux on the desktop could use a healthy does of losing the love affair with the terminal. I use the terminal all day long, dozens of times every day. I never hesitate to pop open a terminal. I don't inflict that skill on the people we help.

But LMDE doesn't work for the majority of computer users who is either not willing or too stupid to learn.

That is a harsh statement. :) The people for whom we install LMDE are non technical, non computer savvy, ordinary point-and-click users. They are not stupid people and more often than not, are quite intelligent and quite skilled at many things. Just not computers. They perceive computers as a tool.

Smart-phone users never use a terminal. I wonder why that perception remains ingrained in many Linux users? ;)

I do agree that LMDE should become the primary focus of the Mint project, but that is not my call. :)
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby KBD47 on Thu May 01, 2014 4:09 pm

kurotsugi wrote:I beg to differ. when LMDE got into trouble we'll need to use those tools to fix it. mint main version also easier to maintain and more stable compared to LMDE. if anyone without linux experience want to migrate from XP, IMO mint main version is the best choice for them. LMDE is for a lil bit more advanced linux user.

I'm a Debian fan, but +1
I have Debian Wheezy and Ubuntu 14.04 running on the same computer, and for the first time Ubuntu is running cooler and faster than Debian. The next Mint LTS should be stellar. A LTS release is a fixed target with select updates and long term support. LMDE is a moving target with entire system upgrades over time. For new users and those with limited tech skills, LTS releases are better without question. LMDE can run fine one day, but need serious attention and fixes the next UP, main Mint is a safer choice.
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby tlcmd on Thu May 01, 2014 4:18 pm

Did not intend to start this deep a discussion. But if you read my posts on LMDE, you can tell that I am, at best, only semi-literate "computerwise." And LMDE is much simpler for me than Windows 8.1. And if I can run LMDE effectively, almost anyone can. It helps if you a long time married guy since you've probably learned how to take explicit instructions and follow specific directions from your wife. Computers are quite specific and understanding and practicing the "garbage in - garbage out" equation is really important here. However, "out of the box" LMDE is quite intuitive and simple to use. Where I've gotten into trouble is installing 3rd party hardware. And, I'd like to thank all of you for putting up with my dumb questions on this forum. You all have been very helpful.
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby kurotsugi on Thu May 01, 2014 4:28 pm

I agree that LMDE user should know terminal but...that's too much :3
on linux desktop, whichever distro you use, doesn't matter if it's debian, ubuntu, arch, manjaro, etc, there'll will be an event which you'll be forced to use terminal to do something. it's just a matter of time, and on my opinion, the faster is better (you may laugh on me. I even use terminal on my droids :lol: ). I don't know how LMDE introduce terminal to their user but in solyxk, it is done by showing terminal output on update manager. user do nothing in the process unless certain action is required but it makes the user get a hint about what happened during the process. even if the user isn't a tech savvy person it still important to make them understand that:
1. linux isn't windows
2. this is how things usually done in linux

the 2nd point will be usefull in the future since all linux distro is 'a community based OS'. it has a society behind it and knowing the society's manner will make them easier to blend into the society.

anyway, woodsman seems have a great job introducing xp user to linux there :3
after our recent discussion i wonder, have you consider using solydxk for your work? it's basicly a LMDE with different desktop (it comes with KDE and XFCE) with same UP system and lil bit more frequent UP (it comes with regular 3 month based UP). your jobs seems require to modify some part of LMDE (I guess that's why you need a more efficient method for installation) and solydxk offer solydxk-constructor tool which could be used to modify the iso and created a modified version of the iso. with this method you can avoid using disk image and simply install your modified version for your client.
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby woodsman on Thu May 01, 2014 6:06 pm

after our recent discussion i wonder, have you consider using solydxk for your work?

Yes, I have considered solydx. Nice work done there. :)

KDE is too heavy for the hardware of typical users still running XP. Many of these users have oldish hardware, often with less than 2GB RAM and some with 32-bit CPUs. Even if they had the hardware, I would not use KDE because of Akonadi. Akonadi is geared toward enterprise users rather than single users. For single users with basic needs Akonadi only duplicates data files and is a waste of drive space and resources. Even if a few folks had the hardware, we can't spread ourselves thin supporting multiple desktop environments.

Xfce never tickled my fancy. Resource wise Mate is about the same and seems to me a more complete desktop environment. Just an opinion and nothing more. :)

So that eliminates solydx/k for us. :) Although I will add the Xfce developers would be smart to absorb the Whisker menu as the default menu. The default Xfce menu is not very useful.

I'd like to see a single LMDE DVD that contains both Cinnamon and Mate rather than the two separate DVDs. We have had success installing both desktops to our master partition images. There needs to be some fine tuning with *.desktop files (OnlyShowIn/NotShowIn) to avoid duplication in menus and control centers, but not a lot of work is needed to install both desktops. Cinnamon is our default desktop, but we keep Mate ready for the older hardware.

Although we have moved to storing both 64-bit and 32-bit disk partition images from which we perform our installations, I would like to see an LMDE core install that would fit on a CD. Surprisingly, many users do not have DVD players and have BIOSes that can't boot from a USB. As we perform our installations from images in a rig with removable drive bays, we don't have an installation problem but I can see where not have a core install CD limits who can install LMDE.

My biggest frustration with Mate and Cinnamon is the file managers. I come from years of using KDE3 and then Trinity. The file managers in Mate and Cinnamon are tough to adapt after years of using Konqueror as a file manager.

Seems there is a strong line separating opinions about whether LMDE is suitable for the less computer savvy folks. Perhaps I am more charitable but we seem to be doing fine with LMDE. I have spent about two weeks altogether performing tweaks here and there and perhaps that effort makes the final product more suitable for users. By focusing on the desktop and the type of users who have no need for a terminal, I have found my own opinion and perspective of such people changing in a large way. Certainly any user can dig deep into any Linux based system, but many users have no need nor desire. So why keep jumping up and down about how challenging Linux or LMDE is? :)

I am keeping a journal of sorts. Eventually I hope to present some desktop tweaks and improvements to the Mint developers based upon our observations and experience. Although I have been using Linux for many years, I am quite new to Mint and Debian and am learning a lot as well. :)
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby tlcmd on Thu May 01, 2014 8:06 pm

I was able to used[b] Unetbootin [/b to install LMDE from an external HDD onto my 2001 computer with only a cd drive and burner. Works well. And is remarkably fast for a computer with a single cor 1.4 GHz Athlon chip and 1536 mb of RAM.

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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby kurotsugi on Fri May 02, 2014 1:57 am

@woodsman: I saw that you're not satisfied with current LMDE iso and that's the reason I suggested solydxk. I actually suggested solydxk because you can create your own iso with your prefered DE, prefered apps, basicly...an iso which could accomodate whatever you want. at this time solydxk only offer KDE and XFCE for the official version but you can made a cinnamon, mate, lxde, razor-qt, openbox version of solydxk. you got the full freedom customizing the iso :3
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby killer de bug on Fri May 02, 2014 3:21 am

tlcmd wrote: I have found LMDE to be very user friendly and no rough edges. It is simple to install and essentially intuitive to run. Much easier than Windows 7 or 8.k


How many UP did you see since you installed LMDE?

woodsman wrote:We are using LMDE as our base with helping private users migrate from XP. These users are not computer savvy and they don't notice any difference.


Nice! I'm anxious to see them posting their problems on the forum and on IRC with the next UP and a massive breakage :lol:
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby kurotsugi on Fri May 02, 2014 5:06 am

it might be a big one :3
the gnome transtition on testing is also quite rough on testing i.e :gnome is take systemd-sysv as dependencies now. most likely we'll be forced to use systemd on next UP. we also already have kernel 3.14 and lot more new goodies (libreoffice 1.4.2 is on unstable. it might on testing on next UP). aside from it there are also some packages got removed from testing. the transition between this UP to next one will be a massive one.
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby woodsman on Fri May 02, 2014 12:37 pm

@woodsman: I saw that you're not satisfied with current LMDE iso

I don't recall explicitly writing that I am dissatisfied with LMDE. :) If my words provided that impression then I want to clarify that my intent is I thought LMDE could be improved. Mostly I am satisfied with LMDE. If I was dissatisfied I would not be here in these forums seeking help and trying to help others. I would move on to something else. :)

There are areas where spit shine and polish could be added. For example, scrollbar slider widths are too narrow for people with vision challenges or mild palsies in the hands. I suffer from neither and I find the widths too narrow. This includes the Cinnamon menu as well as basic apps like the file manager. The challenge with these narrow widths is there is no easy GUI method to provide remedy. Editing css files is doable for geeks but only for each theme. I am sure there is a global setting that I have not yet found that can override the defaults but even if a global setting exists, the scrollbar sliders are just too narrow for most people.

The default GTK3 behavior for slider buttons is disruptive to 20 years of computer usage. The behavior where clicking at the bottom of the scrollbar moves the slider to that position rather than move the slider in a page down motion. The page down behavior must be the default because that is what the majority of people are accustomed.

Similarly, the default panel heights are too small, both Cinnamon and Mate. I watch people and with the defaults they start squinting or craning their necks. Further, the Mate panel uses a disruptive behavior that when the panel height is adjusted to greater than 35 pixels, the panel starts stacking task bar icons on top of one another. This behavior is nothing but geekiness. The majority of people I have observed are not geeks and they are not multi-taskers or power users. At most they have two or three apps open at any one time and most of them only one app. I have not found a way to disable the stacking behavior. Geek designs like this confuse the non computer savvy person.

Default font sizes falls into this same discussion. On just about every desktop the default font sizes are too small.

Generally, free/libre developers are obsessed with a flawed idea called "maximizing screen real estate." Print publishers have long known and accepted that white space improves readability. Likewise, "maximizing screen real estate" has the effect of reducing productivity. Moreso, unlike developers who tend to be bleeding edge proponents, most people do not have monitors the size of a TV. They have humble equipment and many have 17" or 19" monitors and some even smaller.

Oh, one more significant irritant. The default placement of windows to the upper left of the screen. This is highly irritating to just about everybody I have worked with. Center placement feels more natural to most users. Remember that most users are not geeks and are not multi-taskers. Most users do not try or even think about "maximizing screen real estate." They open only one or two apps at a time. Besides, in 2014 there remain desktops that cannot remember an app's window placement? That is tough to believe. :) Oh, devilspie is not a solution. That is a kludge and work-around. All apps should be able to remember window placement when closed. The default should be centered but configurable by users. :)

I mentioned offering LMDE with both Mate and Cinnamon. I think that is a good idea and since users no longer can download LMDE --- or any Mint version --- as a CD, the topic of optical disk size is now moot. So just combine the two desktops into a sole DVD. To support that a handful of *.desktop files need to be updated with respective OnlyShowIn and NotShowIn options to avoid duplication in the menus and control centers.

you got the full freedom customizing the iso

Sure, I understand the four freedoms. :) That said, we now have our own disk partition image and we no longer need a live disk to install LMDE.

Nice! I'm anxious to see them posting their problems on the forum and on IRC with the next UP and a massive breakage

I don't know whether that statement is humor or cynicism. :)

That said, the folks we are helping are not geeks. They are not going to join forums to find help. They seldom know how to search the web for help. Most of them never heard of IRC. Say what you want about such people, but all of them are good folks, sincere, have raised families, will offer a cup of coffee or tea when you visit, etc.

Instead these folks grab the phone and call us, or send an email, which is the limits of their computer savviness. This is a point I have raised elsewhere: the majority of computer users are not geeks. They don't think or act the same as geeks. Their perspective is very different from the geek and computer savvy. These folks are intelligent and highly skilled in many areas of life. Computers are not in that list for these folks.

most likely we'll be forced to use systemd on next UP

Eventually inevitable now that the Debian folks have (wrongly) embraced systemd. I would be surprised to see systemd in the next UP. I suspect systemd will be merged into LMDE only with a lot of testing, both upstream in Debian and in Mint testing circles.

Please understand that everything I share here is intended to help improve LMDE and is offered only in a constructive manner. I have used Linux for a long time but am new to Debian and Mint. As I learn more about the culture and processes I will submit formal enhancement requests and bug reports. :)
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby killer de bug on Fri May 02, 2014 12:43 pm

woodsman wrote:I don't know whether that statement is humor or cynicism. :)

Cynicism of course...

woodsman wrote:That said, the folks we are helping are not geeks. They are not going to join forums to find help. They seldom know how to search the web for help. Most of them never heard of IRC. Say what you want about such people, but all of them are good folks, sincere, have raised families, will offer a cup of coffee or tea when you visit, etc.

Instead these folks grab the phone and call us, or send an email, which is the limits of their computer savviness. This is a point I have raised elsewhere: the majority of computer users are not geeks. They don't think or act the same as geeks. Their perspective is very different from the geek and computer savvy. These folks are intelligent and highly skilled in many areas of life. Computers are not in that list for these folks.


Exactly! So why on earth did you recommend them a distro likely to break in the next 6 months? Why not Linux Mint 13 or 17 which are boring stable?
Since these guys don't want to deal with troubles why did you recommend LMDE and its massive UP???

That's the part, I can't understand ;)
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby tlcmd on Fri May 02, 2014 2:53 pm

I've been using LMDE through at least 3 major updates and the major problem I have had is that i accidentally downloaded a beta edition once. Otherwise, no problems with LMDE except when I tried, and have, installed a 3rd party program which is still in development (J Rivers Media Center 19). Having also made the switch from XP to both 7, 8, and 8.1, LMDE is a breeze to run. Windows 8.1 works ell if you install the "Classic Shell" so you can have a good start menu.

I will add that I tried another well known rolling distro, but when I asked for help on that forum, I was told I was to dumb to use it. That has NEVER happened to me here. And I've asked some pretty dumb questions.

Most computer users, like my wife, who runs Windows 8.1 on one computer and 7 on another, just want an operating system that is easy to run and relatively trouble free. They are not geeks; they regard the computer as a tool. Because she has heard my problems with downloading an installing J Rivers Media Center 19, she has been turned off on LMDE, but that is my fault because I happen to enjoy the challenges that all of the Linux distros (and Windows) present.
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Re: Question re LMDE from Info page

Postby killer de bug on Fri May 02, 2014 4:25 pm

tlcmd wrote:I will add that I tried another well known rolling distro, but when I asked for help on that forum, I was told I was to dumb to use it. That has NEVER happened to me here. And I've asked some pretty dumb questions.


Wild guess... Arch Linux ? :lol:
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