LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

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Where is Update Pack 7 ?

Postby Crewp on Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:25 pm

It's really way to quiet, no news, no nothing, concerning LMDE. Does anyone have any info?
Last edited by xenopeek on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Same subject; merged here.
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby francheu on Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:17 pm

Hi,
Some interesting comments on segfault blog (http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2013/08/usb-stick-formatter/):

KDB
Clem,
Does that mean that LMDE is not dead and that an upgrade should occur very soon ?

clem
LMDE catches up with Mint latest, so most of what we’re working on for Mint 16 will make it into LMDE. To a lesser extent this is also true for the LTS release Linux Mint 13.

KDB
Clem,
That could be nice to have official news about an UP7 for LMDE (or anything important to say about LMDE).
The plan for Mint 16 could be nice to hear too.

alessio
As a satisfied LMDE user, I’m happy to read that this piece of news will come to LMDE as well.
But I would really really appreciate to know if the LMDE project is still alive :\
This is an excellent distro, but quite “old” without a further update asap.

clem
Hi Alessio,
Of course it’s still alive. Our main concern is that it works well though. It’s also set to receive backports but it doesn’t necessarily need to be bleeding edge and have the latest of everything.


:D

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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Zill on Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:53 pm

Thanks for posting that useful info francheu.

It is very good news to hear that LMDE is not dead and I fully agree with Clem's comment that "Our main concern is that it works well though" and does not need to "have the latest of everything." However, the problem of huge filesizes for future update packs still does not seem to have been considered. If each UP is almost as large as (or even larger than!) a complete distro then the advantages of the UP system seem diminished. Many users would simply find it more convenient to install the complete system from scratch, rather that upgrade an existing system.

Are any LMDE devs out there willing to comment on this?
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Monsta on Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:36 pm

Zill wrote:However, the problem of huge filesizes for future update packs still does not seem to have been considered. If each UP is almost as large as (or even larger than!) a complete distro then the advantages of the UP system seem diminished.

The advantages are not going anywhere. One of them is relative stability (compared to a plain rolling release). One thing that helps to achieve it, in my opinion, is taking snapshots of Testing not periodically, but when it's appropriate (i.e. less breakages).
What exactly is the problem with these filesizes, BTW?

Zill wrote:Many users would simply find it more convenient to install the complete system from scratch, rather that upgrade an existing system.

Maybe, but ISOs are released even less frequently than UPs. Imagine UP7 is out and you want to install the system from scratch. You take the latest ISO (201303) install it, and... right, there's the same huge load of updates waiting for you :)
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby excollier on Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:38 pm

When you have a download speed of around 100 kB/s, then large files are a problem, believe me. :(
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Zill on Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:23 pm

Monsta wrote:...What exactly is the problem with these filesizes, BTW?...

For users having either bandwidth caps, slow or unreliable connections then large downloads can be a problem. More frequent but smaller downloads are generally a better solution IMHO.
Monsta wrote:
Zill wrote:Many users would simply find it more convenient to install the complete system from scratch, rather that upgrade an existing system.

Maybe, but ISOs are released even less frequently than UPs. Imagine UP7 is out and you want to install the system from scratch. You take the latest ISO (201303) install it, and... right, there's the same huge load of updates waiting for you :)

My point was that if it is more than six months or so since the last UP was issued then it might as well be released as a new ISO. Being compressed, a new ISO will probably be a smaller download than a pure UP and less likely to cause problems for users upgrading.
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby misGnomer on Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:51 am

Merci bien, François.

It's good to finally have some confirmation that the Linux Mint Debian Edition hasn't been totally abandoned by the wayside permanently.

Yet valid questions remain.

Is there any roadmap? The users wouldn't mind knowing. Esp. wrt. security updates and fixes to existing major security breaches.

Is there anyone keeping an eye on the LMDE train, or is it only on a part-time/when-time-permits basis?

It seems that a good section of the more knowledgeable LMDE users have (respectfully) moved on to form a more communicative and responsive community of their own. In the early days the LMDE power users used to have some communication with the "management", so it looks like even this only method of communication and peer support we had has diminished during this extended information vacuum.

Update Packs cease to be update packs when they become annual gigabyte-class lumps with little in terms of security or application updates in between. What began as an enticing Cinnamon-flavoured edition of rolling Debian Testing and next evolved to bring those rolling updates in the form of frequent Update Pack releases seems now destined to... well I just don't know.

Here's a thought: Perhaps one of the many journalists or bloggers who've covered LMDE news in the past should try to catch Clem's (if he's the one in charge of LMDE?) attention for five minutes to ask the few short and simple questions about Mint's plans for LMDE's future. A wide coverage across Linux news media would be practically guaranteed though, so remember to prepare your Raspberry Pi servers for the Slashdot effect! :lol:
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Monsta on Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:48 am

Zill wrote:My point was that if it is more than six months or so since the last UP was issued then it might as well be released as a new ISO.

But who will release it while the Mint team is busy doing other things? :)

Zill wrote:Being compressed, a new ISO will probably be a smaller download than a pure UP and less likely to cause problems for users upgrading.

Aren't they about the same size? Gigabyte here, gigabyte there.
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby killer de bug on Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:13 am

clem
Hi Alessio,
Of course it’s still alive. Our main concern is that it works well though. It’s also set to receive backports but it doesn’t necessarily need to be bleeding edge and have the latest of everything.


Nice ! Now we all know that LMDE is following Debian Old stable and that there will be no new update for a long time. "It's working so we don't care about it, and we will continue to develop new features for Cinnamon without correcting all the bugs..."

Nice way of life Clem. Thanks... :roll:
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Zill on Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:30 am

Monsta wrote:...
Zill wrote:Being compressed, a new ISO will probably be a smaller download than a pure UP and less likely to cause problems for users upgrading.

Aren't they about the same size? Gigabyte here, gigabyte there.

Exactly! Which is why I am not advocating just releasing new ISOs every year or so. Smaller UPs of a couple of hundred MBs every month or two would be a far preferable solution and would ensure that any major security bugs were rapidly quashed. This is what I originally expected from LMDE but this does not now seem to be the case. :(
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Monsta on Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:01 am

Zill wrote:Smaller UPs of a couple of hundred MBs every month or two would be a far preferable solution and would ensure that any major security bugs were rapidly quashed.

No, they would not. This is Debian Testing, you're at the mercy of Debian Testing Security Team and several factors -
Limitations

For several reasons, the security support for testing cannot be expected to be of the same quality as for Debian's stable branch:

  • Updates for testing-security usually receive less testing than updates for stable-security.
  • Testing is changing all the time which increases the likelihood of problems with the build infrastructure. Such problems can delay security updates in testing

How many times should this be said? :)

Zill wrote:This is what I originally expected from LMDE but this does not now seem to be the case. :(

I'm not really sure who's to blame about that :)
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Zill on Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:46 am

Monsta wrote:...No, they would not. This is Debian Testing, you're at the mercy of Debian Testing Security Team and several factors -
Limitations

For several reasons, the security support for testing cannot be expected to be of the same quality as for Debian's stable branch:

  • Updates for testing-security usually receive less testing than updates for stable-security.
  • Testing is changing all the time which increases the likelihood of problems with the build infrastructure. Such problems can delay security updates in testing
...

I do appreciate that Debian Testing is a moving target. However, I did envisage that (selected) upgraded packages from Testing would be checked by the LMDE team on a regular basis to minimise the risk of breakage to a LMDE system and it is these that I would have expected to be incorporated into a new Update Pack. Obviously, these packages would often have dependent packages which would also need to be updated and so the overall size of each UP could be quite variable.
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby kurotsugi on Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:22 am

...No, they would not. This is Debian Testing, you're at the mercy of Debian Testing Security Team and several factors -
...and the lmde incoming repo user. I wonder how many incoming user at this time.
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby roger64 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:47 pm

kurotsugi wrote: ...and the lmde incoming repo user. I wonder how many incoming user at this time.


Count me one, but, I do feel alone... :D
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby kurotsugi on Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:46 pm

your not alone...i have incoming activated on my repo too :D
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Transitman on Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:28 pm

killer de bug wrote:
clem
Hi Alessio,
Of course it’s still alive. Our main concern is that it works well though. It’s also set to receive backports but it doesn’t necessarily need to be bleeding edge and have the latest of everything.


Nice ! Now we all know that LMDE is following Debian Old stable and that there will be no new update for a long time. "It's working so we don't care about it, and we will continue to develop new features for Cinnamon without correcting all the bugs..."

Nice way of life Clem. Thanks... :roll:



Where do you get that LMDE is following DEBIAN OLD STABLE (Squeeze)?

The current stable Debian is Debian 7 also named Wheezy.
Then there is testing, code named Jessie
Then the is unstable also known as Sid.
Then there is experimental.

Clem is trying to provide the LMDE community with an in house tested and proven LMDE based on Jessie/testing before sending out the update packs.
If this is something that really bothers you, the alter your sources.list to start following the Debian repos, while also still following Linux Mint.
Below is a sample of a source.list anyone could use. (Warning - use of this list is at your own risk)

Code: Select all
#### Linux Mint Repos
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://packages.linuxmint.com/ debian romeo backport import upstream main

#### Debian Wheezy Repos
# deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main contrib non-free 
# deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ wheezy main contrib non-free

#### Debian Testing Repos
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing non-free contrib main 
deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free

#### Debian Testing-Updates Repos
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing-proposed-updates main contrib non-free 
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free 
deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing-proposed-updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free

#### Multimedia Repos
deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://www.deb-multimedia.org/ testing main non-free
# deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://www.deb-multimedia.org/ sid non-free main
# deb [arch=amd64,i386] http://www.deb-multimedia.org/ experimental main


You will still get updates to your Linux Mint system, but also be up to date on Debian releases.
Again - some conflicts may occur between Debian Repos and that of LMDE Update Packs. Use of the above is at your own risk.

Also see this - viewtopic.php?f=201&t=123323

It may help you better understand what Clem is doing and help those who want to change to a more "Rolling" release.
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby misGnomer on Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:21 am

Thanks Transitman.

That might actually be the recommended method for advanced users who don't mind dealing with potential major breakage.

I do recall that LMDE's introductory documentation infers to a more involved user experience than with the mintbuntus, but I reckon many LMDE users fall somewhere between the Gentoo-like build-all-from-source and complete newcomer categories.

I mean, what's not to like about the much-respected Debian, but tweaked with further user-friendly features and updates coming safely and frequently in the form of Update Packs.

The advanced LMDE users with interest in experimenting and less worries about breakage are increasingly finding their fix in various old and new Debian derivatives and they're probably already tracking testing or unstable by now. Some are doing it here with LMDE as well.

It's the rest of the LMDE crowd who are starting to feel a little uneasy about the lack of updates and communication regarding LMDE's future or present. Apart from Clem having noted in some unrelated blog entry that "it's alive."

Clem's doing a great job keeping the mintbuntus up and running, but, unlike the early LMDE which burst into the scene as a friendly face of Debian and started gaining good momentum (not unlike early Ubuntu until they forgot their roots), this current evolution of LMDE feels like it's been left adrift.

Since it's "alive" we can probably assume that Update Pack 7 will eventually turn up. And then we can also probably assume that LMDE could be left unattended for another 9-12 months until the next burst of catchup activity behind the scenes.

If that is indeed the planned mode of operation for LMDE, it'd just be nice that the userbase is made aware of it.
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Bonsaii on Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:11 am

Hi,

UP7 whenever it is ready!

For months I have not posted anything. Why? Because LMDE UP6 is running perfectly. And isn't that what most people want?

Thanks to hardware related issues I had problems at the beginning in 2010. Thanks for the patience of all helpers here!
I did my fair share of breaking things in 2011 and 2012 and went through "testing" with the occasional hick-up (or more).
Then I switched to LMDE with update packs.

For over a year now, my machine is running with LMDE as brilliantly and smoothly as possible. UP6 went through without a glitch. Do I miss anything, because UP7 takes time? No. If I wanted to work on my PC - instead of with my PC - there would be testing or other more experimental installations.

The PC and its software is meant to help me do my work. It is not meant to create work or - worse - problems. And LMDE with UPs is the absolutely perfect tool. Instead of a trouble maker.

Thanks to all developers, testers, helpers, and take your time!
Thinkpad T410s, LMDE 64Bit, Cinnamon
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby killer de bug on Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:10 am

Transitman wrote:Clem is trying [...] those who want to change to a more "Rolling" release.


This has already been discuss... If you do this, you kill Cinnamon. So the better choice is to go to SolydX, witch is stable, using XFCE and based on Testing.


Bonsaii wrote:Hi,
UP7 whenever it is ready!

For months I have not posted anything. Why? Because LMDE UP6 is running perfectly. And isn't that what most people want?


No! Most of the people are using LMDE since it was promising a debian based system, using testing repo (then UP). It was a promise of stability and novelties. After that the UPs were released every 6 months after the main edition. Ok but the interest was already not really here.

Finally we learned that the next UP will be released somewhere in the future but it could be in one month or in 2 years. That's without saying that the last one was 9 or 10 months ago...

If you change the rules of a game, don't expect the players to be fine with that. And if addtionnaly you don't communicate about that...
If user want to use Debian stable, then they should install Debian Stable and not LMDE.
LMDE was supposed to be testing. Now, it's more out of date than Debian Stable... What's wrong ?

When every user in need of a testing based system would have changed to a straight testing system or SolydX or an other distro, who will test the UP ???? At that moment don't blame Clem if bugs are not corrected before UP7, 8, 9... are released ;)

I'm leaving LMDE and will not post to comment the lack of UP.
I wish Clem and the team success with Linux Mint & Cinnamon but from what I can see it will not happen until the team correct all the bugs... Releasing new version with addon every 6 months is fair, but if you have to wait 1 year before a bug correction....
I had a nice system for the past years, thanks to Linux Mint, but since 6 months it's not the case. It's getting more and more buggy (Cinnamon :shock: )... Time to leave.
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Re: LMDE Update Pack 7 - when?

Postby Transitman on Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:21 pm

killer de bug wrote:
If user want to use Debian stable, then they should install Debian Stable and not LMDE.
LMDE was supposed to be testing. Now, it's more out of date than Debian Stable... What's wrong ?

... Time to leave.


Well, since you really did not read what was posted, LMDE users have options
Option #1 - Use LMDE with Update Packs that come out every 6 months or so.
Option #2 - Use LMDE with Stable Debian 7 (Wheezy).
Option #3 - Use LMDE with the TESTING repo from Debian (Jessie).
Option #4 - Use LMDE with the SID repo. (Not recommended for new users)
Option #5 - Use LMDE with the EXPERIMENTAL repo (Not recommended for new users or those who do not feel comfortable in an unstable system).
Option #6 - Leave LMDE and go use something else. No one here is stopping you.

For those who have followed this far, I have posted links to where you can change from LMDE UPDATE PACKS (if you're not happy) to either TESTING or SID, or even STABLE (being based on Debian 7).
Feel free to ask your questions, post your comments, but don't give out bad information just because you don't like the way development of the UPDATE PACKS is going. If you think you can do better, then offer your assistance to help get the UPDATE PACKS out a bit faster.
As far as this user is concerned, Clem and his small band of developers (all volunteers I believe) are doing the best they can with what they have. And in this world economy, a paying job comes first, everything else is second.

I now return you to your forum reading and posting.
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