<DECIDED> LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testing.

Discuss non-support related topics related to LMDE.
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Would you like LMDE to be based on Debian Stable instead of Debian Testing in the future?

Poll ended at Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:24 am

Yes
44
55%
No
36
45%
 
Total votes : 80

Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby tek_heretik on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:23 am

Monsta wrote:
kurotsugi wrote:sure, we accepted that argument since they promised that LMDE will get a better management after they moved into ubuntu LTS version.

I don't remember such a statement. Can you post a link to that promise?

I'd like to see that link too. This is just a stab in the dark but since Mint moved to less of a pressure cooker development model, i.e. not keeping up with Ubuntu's beta releases between LTS releases and focusing more on maintenance, bug fixing and DE development, I would guess that it might free up a few resources to keep LMDE a little more polished. LMDE pretty much takes care of itself apart from the Mint team integrating their DEs, etc, in to it. LMDE is not Mint's flagship release, it's more or less a side project, so it naturally receives less attention than the flagship release (Ubuntu based Mint Cinnamon is their 'baby'). This is just another guess, but my money says Mint is keeping LMDE around as a backup in case Ubuntu makes a 180 degree turn with their development path, Mir for instance, will throw a huge monkey wrench in to the gears of a lot of distros. Only psychics and time travellers know what the future holds, lol. :wink: :D
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby tek_heretik on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:24 am

xenopeek wrote:Nope. You've completely misunderstood how Debian works. Overgeneralizing, but Debian stable only gets fixes added to its software repository--no new major new versions of software, only minor versions to fix security issues for example.

To illustrate, here's the guide to upgrade from Debian 6 to Debian 7 (old-stable to stable) from Debian 7's release notes: https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/ ... ading.html

I also recommend you read this chapter in the Debian Administrator's Handbook, to understand the lifecycle of a Debian release: http://debian-handbook.info/browse/stab ... cycle.html


Thanks, I stand, or sit on my computer chair, lol, corrected. :oops:

Edit: Yeah but still, from my past experience, the differences between a kept up to date system and the next release were not that huge, so in reality it's about the same, it depends on what you have installed and if you stayed faithful to the stable repos, mixing repos and adding PPAs could cause problems, but you are right.
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby xenopeek on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:38 am

To stop confusing each other about what LMDE based on Debian stable means, let's get the terms right :)

LMDE based on Debian stable would be a point release based system. A new release of the distribution would be done periodically and in between releases you get only minor version upgrades for your installed software.

When upstream a security fix is done by the developers of some application, the Debian security team or Debian maintainers of that application look if the security issue also applies to the older version of that application used in Debian stable. If so, they backport the security fix from upstream to Debian stable, and a minor version upgrade becomes available for that application. That can happen at any moment.

The exception to that with LMDE would be the Linux Mint developed software, where like on Linux Mint 17 I think we could expect new major versions of Cinnamon, MATE, and the Mint tools in between releases also.

When a new Debian stable release is done, a new LMDE release would be done also. Extending the steps for how to upgrade Debian stable to a new release for the Linux Mint repositories, I think you would be able to upgrade LMDE in place also. This does not make it a rolling release! LMDE based on Debian testing is a semi-rolling release base system--you never have to upgrade from one release to a next, as unlike with Debian stable the Debian testing repositories get new major releases of software all the time (with LMDE only with Update Packs, hence semi-rolling; and yes Debian testing gets frozen for a while leading up to a new Debian release).
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby tek_heretik on Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:57 am

xenopeek wrote:I think you would be able to upgrade LMDE in place also.

If I'm not mistaken, that was the question asked many posts back, lol. :? But when all the smoke clears, if LMDE gets based on stable, it will be what most people understand to be a 'rolling release', meaning essentially and ideally never having to install every new major version totally fresh like you have to do with the Ubuntu based LTS releases.
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby killer de bug on Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:09 pm

tek_heretik wrote:If I'm not mistaken, that was the question asked many posts back, lol. :? But when all the smoke clears, if LMDE gets based on stable, it will be what most people understand to be a 'rolling release',

This is not the definition of a rolling release. Rolling release means that you don't have a version number. For example Arch is always moving. Arch packages constantly change. This is rolling release.
On the contrary, Debian has a version number. For 2 years, packages get security fix but are not upgraded. GTK, Kernel, libc6 are the same today and 1 year ago when Wheezy was released (except security fixes of course).

tek_heretik wrote:meaning essentially and ideally never having to install every new major version totally fresh like you have to do with the Ubuntu based LTS releases.

This is true. You should be able to upgrade between each version of Debian.
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby xenopeek on Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:36 pm

killer de bug wrote:For 2 years, packages get security fix but are not upgraded. GTK, Kernel, libc6 are the same today and 1 year ago when Wheezy was released (except security fixes of course).

Exactly, applications like LibreOffice, VLC, and GIMP all stay on the same version until you install a next version of Debian stable--or upgrade it in place. You can upgrade Linux Mint based on Ubuntu also in place, without need to reinstall, but I doubt anybody will be confused and call that a rolling release... Exactly the same for Debian stable, without a single difference...

Except for minor version updates done by the Debian maintainers to fix any security issues everything stays the same. You never get a new version from upstream, as released by the developers of some application. You only get new version from the Debian maintainers, as they backport security fixes and such.

A rolling release would get updates from upstream all the time, like Debian testing does (or indeed better example Arch Linux). So from one day to the next you could see updates that add new features to LibreOffice, VLC, or GIMP. With Debian stable you will never get new features for your software (iceweasel & icedove being the exception in Debian, and Cinnamon, MATE, Firefox & Thunderbird, and the Mint tools being the exception in LMDE based on Debian stable).
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby KBD47 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:02 pm

tek_heretik wrote:
computer noob wrote:
tek_heretik wrote:Just the opposite, it would be even more so a rolling. 100% completely rollling. Not quite as cutting edge but that would be the trade off, newish and flakey or somewhat stale but totally dependable.


So Stable LMDE would be rolling? Meaning you'd never have to install again? How would that work? I was under the impression that Stable was like LTS, and you'd have to reinstall every few years.

OK, somebody, anybody, correct me if I'm wrong...If you have a Debian stable install and update it regularly, by the time the next official 'release' comes along (in this case, Jessie 8.0), because of the regular updates, your install is already at the next release level, maybe with the exception of a few packages on release day, like the one that changes your OS description to read Debian GNU/Linux 8.0 from 7.x. It's a gradual upgrade as opposed to a machine that never gets maintenance.

Edit: See xenopeek's post following this one, apparently I was wrong, oopsy. :oops:


You would do all the regular updates, and then when a new Stable comes out (about every two years) you would change your sources, for instance, right now Debian sources are wheezy, the next Stable will be jessie. So you change your sources and run dist-upgrade and you would be upgraded to the next Stable release version without reinstalling.
A true rolling release would be Arch or Debian Sid, which gets new packages all the time. Rolling release sounds good, but you better be able to fix things when they break. LMDE was not a truly rolling release, it was a release that moved forward when an update pack came out, then was stuck until the next update pack came out. You will actually get more updates being based upon Stable than with the old UP system. And ideally you should never have to reinstall.
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby killer de bug on Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:38 pm

KBD47 wrote:You would do all the regular updates, and then when a new Stable comes out (about every two years) you would change your sources, for instance, right now Debian sources are wheezy, the next Stable will be jessie.

You can also explicitly use the keyword stable instead of using the name of the release. And you will ever follow stable without changing your sources.list file.
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby py-thon on Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:43 pm

killer de bug wrote:SolydXK, Debian based Gnu/Linux distribution with XFCE and KDE desktop env... Exactly what LMDE is, isn't it? :roll:

I suppose you know the history of how SolydXK started. Everyone who doesn't can get some information here. So, yes, in this context it's perfectly feasible to compare SolydXK to LMDE.

killer de bug wrote:According to this wonderful link, mintsystem was updated 2 days ago, mintsources 3 days ago, mintupdate 5 days ago, mintupdate-debian 10 days ago, mintinstall 10 days ago... I will stop here, I really think it's enough to prove that you are (again) totally wrong...

Nice link, but none of the versions you mention has found its way into LMDE's repos so far, not even mintupdate-debian.

In my opinion it all adds up to this:
If you consider Mint XX an unstable distribution then indeed you lack something based on Debian Stable.
If you consider Mint XX a sufficiently stable distribution, then what do you need LMDE based on Debian Stable for?
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby killer de bug on Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:06 pm

py-thon wrote:So, yes, in this context it's perfectly feasible to compare SolydXK to LMDE.

No it's not, because XFCE and KDE are different from Cinnamon. Different DE, different problems, different distro, different solutions. Period.
Why don't you compare LMDE and #! ?

py-thon wrote:Nice link, but none of the versions you mention has found its way into LMDE's repos so far, not even mintupdate-debian.

That's right, since we did not get a UP with them. But my post was an answer to kurotsugi saying that these tools were not developed anymore by the team.
Regarding mintupdate-debian, the team would not develop it if it was not going to be used any time soon... That seems really logic in my ears...
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby py-thon on Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:52 pm

killer de bug wrote:No it's not, because XFCE and KDE are different from Cinnamon. Different DE, different problems, different distro, different solutions. Period.
Why don't you compare LMDE and #! ?

LMDE and SolydXK are both semi-rolling releases based on Debian Testing with a common past, so they are the obvious choice to compare in their respective progress.
It doesn't make sense to pursue the topic of different DEs here. A DE is a means to an end not an end in itself.

You can compare Crunchbang to a supposed LMDE stable if you like, both being based on Debian Stable and non-rolling. Crunchbang is probably useful for old or low-end PCs. What user is LMDE stable aimed at?
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby xenopeek on Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:38 pm

py-thon wrote:What user is LMDE stable aimed at?

My take on it: somebody that wants to use the best that Mint has to offer (Cinnamon, MATE, the Mint tools), but wants it to be very low maintenance. Currently LMDE isn't really a match for that group. SteamOS is based on Debian stable also. To me it makes sense.

SolydXK has a clear focus on use in organizations and companies, which I think sets it apart from Mint which doesn't have such a direct focus on who/where it is used as much as it has a focus on offering a familiar desktop experience to users on laptops and desktops and tries to excel there for all users--regardless of whether they use it at home or in the office. But let's not get side-tracked too long by looking at what other Debian based distros have been doing (there are over 160 of them IIRC) but consider what we think LMDE should be doing to take it forward.
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby py-thon on Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:47 pm

xenopeek wrote:Mint which doesn't have such a direct focus on who/where it is used

In my opinion LMDE has lost steam for lack of time and focus. The maintainers seem to have lost interest and are now looking for the easy way out to concentrate on other things. To base LMDE on Debian stable and stop it from rolling will result (in relation to the current situation) in an almost zero maintenance project: just bundle Mint tools with Debian stable and distribute it. This is of course the maintainers' right, but as a user who was looking for a rolling distro I am disappointed.
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby xfrank on Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:44 pm

killer de bug wrote:
tek_heretik wrote:If I'm not mistaken, that was the question asked many posts back, lol. :? But when all the smoke clears, if LMDE gets based on stable, it will be what most people understand to be a 'rolling release',

This is not the definition of a rolling release. Rolling release means that you don't have a version number. For example Arch is always moving. Arch packages constantly change. This is rolling release.
On the contrary, Debian has a version number. For 2 years, packages get security fix but are not upgraded. GTK, Kernel, libc6 are the same today and 1 year ago when Wheezy was released (except security fixes of course).

tek_heretik wrote:meaning essentially and ideally never having to install every new major version totally fresh like you have to do with the Ubuntu based LTS releases.

This is true. You should be able to upgrade between each version of Debian.


OK, we understand Killer, but for practical purposes, most people are interested in NOT to have to reinstall their OS. Having frequent updates of the system is secondary. Reinstalling the system is an hassle because the long time and efforts required by starting again from zero to tweak, adjust, configure, customize, install the peripherals and the programs.
I have a real rolling Linux in another computer: Manjaro (=Arch). It's fine to have frequent updates, but the most important thing for me is not to be forced to reinstall.
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby Crewp on Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:34 pm

py-thon wrote:
xenopeek wrote:Mint which doesn't have such a direct focus on who/where it is used

In my opinion LMDE has lost steam for lack of time and focus. The maintainers seem to have lost interest and are now looking for the easy way out to concentrate on other things. To base LMDE on Debian stable and stop it from rolling will result (in relation to the current situation) in an almost zero maintenance project: just bundle Mint tools with Debian stable and distribute it. This is of course the maintainers' right, but as a user who was looking for a rolling distro I am disappointed.


Yes, maybe LMDE has lost a little steam in it's current form. But, the move to stable would give the dev's a little more time to polish LMDE.
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby tek_heretik on Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:39 pm

Well haven't I been schooled on rolling, semi-rolling, etc, lol, anyway, rolling has become a blanket-term for not having to re-install. Unfortunately, with any distro, if you can resist the urge to customize, surgical in-place mini-upgrades (like forcing higher versions of only certain software), then you might avoid the upgrade bork, with any distro upgrade, it's keep your fingers crossed, especially if it's not 'virgin'. :mrgreen:

Edit: As for Arch users, I've read/heard many stories of it working and upgrading fine for a while, then supposedly it gets tripped up by the smallest thing, IMHO, Debian has a far better quality control system than Arch, Debian's quality control is waaaaaaay more structured than Arch's. Apparently their forums are like a cat (you) in a junkyard full of angry dogs (them), lol, again, I can't totally confirm that because I don't like Arch and have no use for their forum, I will say one thing, their Wiki is exceptional, I have actually found useful tidbits and answers there.

Edit 2: This is an eye-opener, and a very long read, it's the upgrade release notes from Squeeze to Wheezy, after reading that, it looks like just backing up all your stuff and doing a fresh install would be a lot easier. :? So whoever said Debian releases are a lot like Ubuntu LTS releases, you were absolutely right, again, I [s]stand[/s] sit on my stinky worn computer chair corrected. :oops: :shock:
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby killer de bug on Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:59 am

tek_heretik wrote:Edit 2: This is an eye-opener, and a very long read, it's the upgrade release notes from Squeeze to Wheezy, after reading that, it looks like just backing up all your stuff and doing a fresh install would be a lot easier.

No! I have read the document yesterday. It clearly says to:
  • Back-up your data
  • apt update
  • apt upgrade
  • apt dist-upgrade

It's like LMDE at the moment, except they recommend a partial upgrade first...
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby xenopeek on Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:07 am

killer de bug wrote:
  • Back-up your data
  • apt update
  • apt upgrade
  • apt dist-upgrade

Edit your sources.list somewhere also? :)
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby killer de bug on Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:22 am

xenopeek wrote:Edit your sources.list somewhere also? :)

It depend of your sources.list file. If you have 'stable' hard coded you don't have to do it. Of course if you are using Wheezy or Jessie code name, you should change them before upgrading.

For example LMDE use testing and not Jessie...
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Re: Would you like LMDE to be based on Stable, not on Testin

Postby tek_heretik on Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:16 am

killer de bug wrote:
tek_heretik wrote:Edit 2: This is an eye-opener, and a very long read, it's the upgrade release notes from Squeeze to Wheezy, after reading that, it looks like just backing up all your stuff and doing a fresh install would be a lot easier.

No! I have read the document yesterday. It clearly says to:
  • Back-up your data
  • apt update
  • apt upgrade
  • apt dist-upgrade

It's like LMDE at the moment, except they recommend a partial upgrade first...

You did read the part about system level OS directory changes, etc, right? So when it comes time to migrate to Jessie from Wheezy, will Mint write special scripts for all those hidden but critical changes? That is why I said (I guess I should have specified for me) it would be easier to do a fresh install, everything will know where directories and config files are. :?

It was not meant for advice for other people, I was just simply speculating out loud what I may do. :? My bad, sorry. :oops:
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