Really rolling?

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Re: Really rolling?

Postby tdockery97 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:31 am

Great explanation on updating. Thanks, and welcome to Mint. Hope you see things here you like.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby simpleblue on Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:42 am

Nebeli wrote:
vincent wrote:Yes, Debian recommends the use of aptitude. On the other hand, Ubuntu is actually planning to remove aptitude from its base system by Ubuntu 11.04, and recommend people to use its Software Centre instead (or Synaptic and apt-get).


They are planing to remove Synaptic from Ubuntu 11.4 too... :evil:
http://www.webupd8.org/2010/09/synaptic ... -soon.html

nebeli

Try to think of yourself as a newbie. Ubuntu and Mint have 3 ways of downloading programs. Is that not a little bit overboard?

Though I must say that I so very much like synaptic, so I'll be downloading it when it disappears in Ubuntu. :wink:
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby MALsPa on Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:51 am

simpleblue wrote:Try to think of yourself as a newbie.


That's very hard to do sometimes!

simpleblue wrote:Though I must say that I so very much like synaptic, so I'll be downloading it when it disappears in Ubuntu.


I think I will, too. But it'll be a long time before I have to do that -- I only use LTS versions, anyway.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby axel668 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:27 am

vincent wrote:...
Ubuntu seems to insist on people using their Software Centre, for some reason (and maybe it's for a good reason...Synaptic is a more powerful tool, but newbies don't find it as intuitive as Ubuntu Software Centre or mintInstall). I'm just glad that Mint comes with both Synaptic and mintInstall by default...to be honest, I use neither (I prefer apt-get), but I like the fact that both tools are available and easily accessible if I ever choose to use them.


The reason for this is pretty obvious, in my opinion: Ubuntu wants to create their own App Store (a key indicator for this is the "free" price tag on ANY package in 10.04 Beta). Add a payment system, and they can make money from selling commercial applications, which will be advertized in the "Featured" Section (at the cost of OpenSource software, that doesn't earn them a provision because it's free).
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby kmb42vt on Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:39 pm

axel668 wrote:
vincent wrote:...
Ubuntu seems to insist on people using their Software Centre, for some reason (and maybe it's for a good reason...Synaptic is a more powerful tool, but newbies don't find it as intuitive as Ubuntu Software Centre or mintInstall). I'm just glad that Mint comes with both Synaptic and mintInstall by default...to be honest, I use neither (I prefer apt-get), but I like the fact that both tools are available and easily accessible if I ever choose to use them.


The reason for this is pretty obvious, in my opinion: Ubuntu wants to create their own App Store (a key indicator for this is the "free" price tag on ANY package in 10.04 Beta). Add a payment system, and they can make money from selling commercial applications, which will be advertized in the "Featured" Section (at the cost of OpenSource software, that doesn't earn them a provision because it's free).


In that case it may be that LMDE might find a more prominent place in the current Mint editions than expected. Perhaps a bit sooner than expected as well but that's just conjecture on my part. I have no problem with Ubuntu apparently going the way of Apple. I believe it was Mark Shuttleworth who made the statement just prior to the 10.04 release that Apple's OSX, not Microsoft Windows was the real competitor to Ubuntu and certain minor GUI changes already made and future changes like removing aptitude and Synaptic seem to show that Ubuntu is indeed attempting to compete with OSX and, in some ways, Apple's business philosophy as well. That's all fine and dandy and more power to them but I won't be joining the Ubuntu ride. Not if that's the way it's headed.

Just my opinion of course.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby vicshrike on Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:08 pm

are aptitude and synaptic going to disappear from Mint too?
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby soreil on Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:19 pm

vicshrike wrote:are aptitude and synaptic going to disappear from Mint too?

Mint does not work with the same software manager as Ubuntu as far as I know. I wouldn't like to see them remove it. Aptitude however I haven't heard anything about. I don't use it myself but I do know a few people that do.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby hcueva on Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:46 pm

So as a conclusion: since LMDE is based on testing, I don't have to do dist-upgrade, but a simple apt-get update && apt-get upgrade once a week will do? or besides the weekly apt-get update && apt-get upgrade I'd still have to run dist-upgrade every once in a while?

I'm sorry to be redundant, but I'm a "rolling release newbie" here.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby tdockery97 on Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:41 pm

The clearest explanation I have found on the difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade is here:

http://serverfault.com/questions/46748/ ... ade-for-me

This part in particular:

man apt-get

upgrade
upgrade is used to install the newest versions of all packages
currently installed on the system from the sources enumerated
in /etc/apt/sources.list.

dist-upgrade
dist-upgrade, in addition to performing the function of upgrade,
also intelligently handles changing dependencies with new versions
of packages;
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby vincent on Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:00 am

I think the following explains it better:
The command apt-get upgrade will not add or remove packages. apt-get dist-upgrade will add or remove packages as required.


Both "upgrade" and "dist-upgrade" will upgrade your packages, but if upgrading the packages in question requires other packages to be installed or removed (which often takes place when a completely new release of a given software package is released, and various libraries thus need to be installed or removed to accomodate it), "upgrade" will not go ahead with the upgrade, while "dist-upgrade" will. Ex. If you want to upgrade package foo, but the maintainers of that package have decided that it was necessary to add package bar as a dependency for the newer version of foo due to various major changes in foo, and if you do not already have package bar installed, "upgrade" will not upgrade anything; "dist-upgrade" will upgrade both foo and bar.

"dist-upgrade" will often be necessary in a rolling release (e.g. Debian Testing/Unstable, LMDE). In a stable release, i.e. Debian Stable/Ubuntu, libraries should remain pretty static and no major software updates should be released unless it's a security patch (which is why you get so many outdated packages in the repos), and thus "upgrade" is sufficient.

So basically, if you're using LMDE, get used to running "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade" / "aptitude update && aptitude full-upgrade" on a regular basis. In a rolling-release, I would also update much more regularly than in a stable release. Once Debian Testing is unfrozen and a deluge of updates is released from upstream Unstable, I'm sure you'll see what I mean. :P
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby Damian on Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:17 am

It really won't be too big of a deal when testing opens up again. I switched my LMDE over to Sid and only had an hour wait while it downloaded around 250 packages. Time enough to eat dinner and watch some TV. I'm using Mobile Broadband2Go so I'd imagine if you had a hard line connection you will have faster results than I did. I have "Back in Time" installed to help in case something goes wrong. It'll take snapshots of my system day to day that I can restore to if needed.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby vicshrike on Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:59 am

if in DOUBT... leave it at its default level...
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby ej64 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:03 am

vicshrike wrote:if in DOUBT... leave it at its default level...

I think, you didn't get the point of this discussion (which I initiated, btw).

The point is, that LMDE is honoured for being a rolling distribution. And that it's not possible to "let it roll" with the usual Mint means and the default settings (If that's enough for you, that's just fine -- but it's not the point of this thread). With mintUpdate and the defaults you will never ever get a new kernel or some of the core applications (e.g. the xserver).

(And that's my conclusion, as far as I see:)
So, if you want a rolling distribution, you have to use the command line with apt-get/aptitude dist-upgrade on a regular basis.
If you do not want a rolling distribution, it's best to change the repos to squeeze.
Anything inbetween will inevitably lead to unstable or no longer updateable systems or applications (with time).
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby MALsPa on Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:53 am

ej64 wrote:The point is, that LMDE is honoured for being a rolling distribution. And that it's not possible to "let it roll" with the usual Mint means and the default settings (If that's enough for you, that's just fine -- but it's not the point of this thread). With mintUpdate and the defaults you will never ever get a new kernel or some of the core applications (e.g. the xserver).

(And that's my conclusion, as far as I see:)
So, if you want a rolling distribution, you have to use the command line with apt-get/aptitude dist-upgrade on a regular basis.
If you do not want a rolling distribution, it's best to change the repos to squeeze.
Anything inbetween will inevitably lead to unstable or no longer updateable systems or applications (with time).


Seems to me that one could accomplish the same thing by using Synaptic instead of mintUpdate if you mark all upgrades and apply (here's where it would be nice to have that "Mark All Upgrades" button put back in Synaptic! -- is it there in LMDE, by the way?).
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby gotjazz on Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:19 am

MALsPa wrote:
Seems to me that one could accomplish the same thing by using Synaptic instead of mintUpdate if you mark all upgrades and apply (here's where it would be nice to have that "Mark All Upgrades" button put back in Synaptic! -- is it there in LMDE, by the way?).


If I'm not mistaken that'd just equal apt-get upgrade not dist-upgrade. And by the way: it's not there and I guess the reason is that using it wouldn't be a good idea ;)
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby ej64 on Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:21 am

I'm not sure wether synaptic is a good choice. There must be some reason why the guys from aptosid/sidux explicitely recommend it this way:
ej64 wrote:According to the aptosid (rolling sid distribution, formerly "Sidux") manual a dist-upgrade should be performed at least once a month (to not run into dependency troubles). This dist-upgrade must be run within a tty, logged out from any X DE and within runlevel 3 to be safe.

Perhaps you can't uninstall libs a running xorg depends on (if this is necessary one day). To me it seems the safest and completest way to upgrade is via terminal in runlevel 3.

But do as you like -- only time will tell. (And I'm sure I will break my system anyway ... :mrgreen: )
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby kmb42vt on Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:47 am

I would think enabling level 4 and 5 updates in LMDE's Update Manager would be sufficient enough. Leaving the update manager wide open will port through all updates including all kernel and xorg updates. It works for me.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby MALsPa on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:07 pm

gotjazz wrote:
MALsPa wrote:
Seems to me that one could accomplish the same thing by using Synaptic instead of mintUpdate if you mark all upgrades and apply (here's where it would be nice to have that "Mark All Upgrades" button put back in Synaptic! -- is it there in LMDE, by the way?).


If I'm not mistaken that'd just equal apt-get upgrade not dist-upgrade.


That's what I thought, too, until I read the descriptions for "upgrade" and "dist-upgrade" in man apt-get. And, check this out:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticHowto

Dist-upgrade is the default upgrade method used by Synaptic.


gotjazz wrote:And by the way: it's not there and I guess the reason is that using it wouldn't be a good idea ;)


Well, the reason it isn't there is to "protect" newbies from possibly borking their systems. If it's such a bad idea to use it, then it's an equally bad idea to use apt-get update or apt-get dist-upgrade, and also a bad idea to enable level 4 and 5 updates in LMDE's Update Manager. :wink:
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby gotjazz on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:11 pm

oh synaptic uses dist-upgrade?
Then I was talking gibberish earlier :)
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby kmb42vt on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:17 pm

MALsPa wrote:
Well, the reason it isn't there is to "protect" newbies from possibly borking their systems. If it's such a bad idea to use it, then it's an equally bad idea to use apt-get update or apt-get dist-upgrade, and also a bad idea to enable level 4 and 5 updates in LMDE's Update Manager. :wink:


Of course it's a bad idea. But no worse than running any other "rolling " distro. Besides, what is actually "bad" about it is strictly subjective on any users part. :mrgreen:
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