Really rolling?

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Re: Really rolling?

Postby MALsPa on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:30 pm

kmb42vt wrote:Of course it's a bad idea. But no worse than running any other "rolling " distro. Besides, what is actually "bad" about it is strictly subjective on any users part. :mrgreen:


Yeah, it's interesting that Mint is the only distro I know of where having a "Mark All Upgrades" button in Synaptic is considered a "bad idea." But, yeah, strictly subjective.

Thinking of newbies who use use LMDE, though... if I'm understanding things correctly, it won't be truly a "rolling release" unless either a) level 4 and 5 updates are enabled, b) apt-get dist-upgrade is used, or c) Synaptic is used with the default "Smart Upgrade." Hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong about that.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby MALsPa on Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:52 pm

gotjazz wrote:oh synaptic uses dist-upgrade?
Then I was talking gibberish earlier :)


Not gibberish, sir. Apparently, while "Smart Upgrade," which uses dist-uprade, is the default setting in Synaptic, at least in most distros, if you change the setting to "Default Upgrade," you using apt-get upgrade.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby kmb42vt on Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:14 pm

MALsPa wrote:
kmb42vt wrote:Of course it's a bad idea. But no worse than running any other "rolling " distro. Besides, what is actually "bad" about it is strictly subjective on any users part. :mrgreen:


Yeah, it's interesting that Mint is the only distro I know of where having a "Mark All Upgrades" button in Synaptic is considered a "bad idea." But, yeah, strictly subjective.

Thinking of newbies who use use LMDE, though... if I'm understanding things correctly, it won't be truly a "rolling release" unless either a) level 4 and 5 updates are enabled, b) apt-get dist-upgrade is used, or c) Synaptic is used with the default "Smart Upgrade." Hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong about that.


Just thinking out loud here. I'm getting the impression that we're not applying the definition of "rolling" correctly here. I even find myself thinking of "rolling" as relating to Debian where a true rolling release would mean using sid (unstable), not testing or at least testing and accepting all updates. The thing is we're talking about Mint which is based on and compatible with Debian but the fact is, it's not Debian, it's Mint. So the definition of rolling has to be looked at in a different manner. In other words, this is a Linux Mint (type) rolling release, not what we would consider a pure Debian based rolling release which would more likely be based on sid or at least testing with the flood gates left wide open.

Am I making any sense here? :D
Last edited by kmb42vt on Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby MALsPa on Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:31 pm

kmb42vt wrote:The thing is we're talking about Mint based on and compatible with Debian but the fact is, it's not Debian, it's Mint. So the definition of rolling has to be looked at in a different manner.


Hm. Hadn't thought of it that way, but you might be absolutely correct!
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby msuggs on Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:25 pm

^^ Bingo, someone finally hit the nail on the head. In the main edition the kernel etc doesn't update and no one bats an eyelid. Clem has stated this issue will be addressed and a workable solution thought through and implemented after the Mint 10 release. I can live with the current situation until then.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby meandean on Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:35 pm

Both apt-get and aptitude use apt and dpkg behind the scenes, the difference is simply how they choose to handle certain situations. Anymore one functions about the same as the other...depending on how you use it.

Back to the subject at hand, if you want to stay fully in sync with debian testing then you should keep the system upgraded regularly and dist-upgrade may be necessary due to changing dependencies and package names. Most of the time (possibly all the time) it will not do anything different than a regular upgrade but the possibility does exist. I certainly would not go longer than a week although with the freeze things will be slower than usual.

Now if you want to stay fully 'mint' then....well....I have no idea what that would be... :P
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby red123 on Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:54 am

The complication discussed in this thread kind of made a newb like me want to switch back to Mint 9. =(
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby gotjazz on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:39 am

red123 wrote:The complication discussed in this thread kind of made a newb like me want to switch back to Mint 9. =(


ah it's gonna be alright :)

and should any problems arise (I don't think they will) you can switch back then not right away
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby The Garage on Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:51 am

From my experience with debian based rolling releases:

Upgrade using "dist-upgrade" as dependencies change & new libs come in. If you only use upgrade....some packages will stop rolling!

You can achieve this by:
1: apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade
2: us synaptic [set to "smart upgrade"]

3: BEST OPTION is to use smxi [set to use apt-get] it avoids pulling in incomplete packages until they are complete, allows easy install of some readily used softwares, easy kernel upgrades & removals, easy graphics driver installs & rebuilds & much more. It is, by far, IMHO the best way to maintain a debain based rolling release, either testing or sid based. For LMDE to offer long term stability it should be considered to use smxi for all upgrades. Yes, it needs to be run out of X, big deal. Feel free to install any packages using synaptic [set to smart upgrade], but use smxi for the dist-upgrades & your system will upgrade smoothly for a long time!

Other upgrade options may work for a while, but when the big changes come you'll be glad you were using smxi all along!
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby Stennie on Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:35 am

If Debian is a Rolling release should we all not still be using version 1 as its always been upgraded... :D
Why the need for new releases....
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby indaymadel on Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:48 am

The Garage wrote:From my experience with debian based rolling releases:

Upgrade using "dist-upgrade" as dependencies change & new libs come in. If you only use upgrade....some packages will stop rolling!

You can achieve this by:
1: apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade
2: us synaptic [set to "smart upgrade"]

3: BEST OPTION is to use smxi [set to use apt-get] it avoids pulling in incomplete packages until they are complete, allows easy install of some readily used softwares, easy kernel upgrades & removals, easy graphics driver installs & rebuilds & much more. It is, by far, IMHO the best way to maintain a debain based rolling release, either testing or sid based. For LMDE to offer long term stability it should be considered to use smxi for all upgrades. Yes, it needs to be run out of X, big deal. Feel free to install any packages using synaptic [set to smart upgrade], but use smxi for the dist-upgrades & your system will upgrade smoothly for a long time!

Other upgrade options may work for a while, but when the big changes come you'll be glad you were using smxi all along!


Can you post a command to download (latest version) and install smxi? Can't install with "sudo apt-get install smxi".
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby vincent on Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:33 am

Code: Select all
su -
cd /usr/local/bin && wget -Nc smxi.org/smxi.zip && unzip smxi.zip && smxi


If this is the first time that you've used smxi, even though it's pretty intuitive, it'd be a good idea to read up on it first. (http://smxi.org/docs/)
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby tdockery97 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:27 pm

Stennie wrote:If Debian is a Rolling release should we all not still be using version 1 as its always been upgraded... :D
Why the need for new releases....

That only applies if you had installed version 1 when it was released and kept it upgraded during all these years. If you tried installing the first release now, it wouldn't work out too well. The developers have kept it up to date for you by re-releasing a new version periodically so that those who come in at this time will still have the latest.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby craigevil on Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:20 pm

Rolling release - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_release

Unless I am missing something, according to that article Testing isn't technically a rolling release. However Debian sid/unstable is considered a rolling release distro.

Which is how my crappy Dell has managed to have the same install on it since Feb 2004. I installed Debian, upgraded to sid, and have been doing apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade daily ever since. Six years and counting still haven't had to reinstall. I have had to put in a new video card, and I replaced the ram, but haven't had to reinstall.

Reinstalling every six months or however long has always sounded more like the Windows way of doing things.

Even with a totally messed up system you can fix it 99% of the time without reinstalling.

my crappy Dell Desktop:
Code: Select all
System:    Host craigevil Kernel 2.6.35-6.dmz.3-liquorix-686 i686 (32 bit) Distro Debian GNU/Linux squeeze/sid
CPU:       Single core Intel Pentium 4 (-HT-) cache 1024 KB flags (lm nx sse sse2 sse3) bmips 5585.78
           Clock Speeds: (1) 2792.894 MHz (2) 2792.894 MHz
Graphics:  Card nVidia G96 [GeForce 9400 GT] X.Org 1.7.7 Res: 1280x1024@50.0hz
           GLX Renderer GeForce 9400 GT/PCI/SSE2 GLX Version 3.3.0 NVIDIA 260.19.06 Direct Rendering Yes
Audio:     Card Intel 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) High Definition Audio Controller driver HDA Intel BusID: 00:1b.0
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Version 1.0.23
Network:   Card Intel 82562ET/EZ/GT/GZ - PRO/100 VE (LOM) Ethernet Controller driver e100 v: 3.5.24-k2-NAPI at port dcc0 BusID: 03:08.0
Disks:     HDD Total Size: 160.0GB (24.0% used) 1: /dev/sda WDC_WD1600JS 160.0GB
Partition: ID:/ size: 103G used: 36G (37%) fs: ext3 ID:swap-1 size: 5.25GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap
Info:      Processes 110 Uptime 13 min Memory 256.1/2015.9MB Runlevel 5 Client Shell inxi 1.4.20

inxi -t cm5
Processes: CPU - % used - top  5 active
           1 - cpu: 3.4% command: X pid: 1497
           2 - cpu: 2.8% command: google-chrome pid: 4661
           3 - cpu: 2.7% command: chrome pid: 5736
           4 - cpu: 1.3% command: bash pid: 15071
           5 - cpu: 0.8% command: okular pid: 3550
           Memory - MB / % used - top  5 active
           1 - mem: 81.20MB (4.0%) command: google-chrome pid: 4661
           2 - mem: 45.86MB (2.2%) command: X pid: 1497
           3 - mem: 39.04MB (1.9%) command: chrome pid: 5736
           4 - mem: 37.65MB (1.8%) command: chrome pid: 8350
           5 - mem: 36.67MB (1.8%) command: soffice.bin pid: 2536
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby msuggs on Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:29 pm

Keep in mind that LMDE was a 'testing' release in itself. There is still much to be learnt and worked through.

Clem has stated on the blog that he will work on resolving this issue in MintUpdate after the release of Mint 10. I'm happy to let my system ride until then. Others will probably follow the advice above. My main concern in dist-upgrading is breaking the Mint tools which has happened to me in the past (mainly the menu) when dist-upgrading the ubuntu base.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby msuggs on Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:41 pm

kmb42vt wrote:Just thinking out loud here. I'm getting the impression that we're not applying the definition of "rolling" correctly here. I even find myself thinking of "rolling" as relating to Debian where a true rolling release would mean using sid (unstable), not testing or at least testing and accepting all updates. The thing is we're talking about Mint which is based on and compatible with Debian but the fact is, it's not Debian, it's Mint. So the definition of rolling has to be looked at in a different manner. In other words, this is a Linux Mint (type) rolling release, not what we would consider a pure Debian based rolling release which would more likely be based on sid or at least testing with the flood gates left wide open.

Am I making any sense here? :D

I would say that sums up the situation quite well :)
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby tdockery97 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:22 pm

craigevil wrote:Rolling release - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_release

Unless I am missing something, according to that article Testing isn't technically a rolling release. However Debian sid/unstable is considered a rolling release distro.

Uhhh...LMDE is mentioned at least twice as a rolling release.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby linmint777 on Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:45 pm

quiet, clem said that version 6 out of debian reveal the right way to do an update of mint-debian.
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby misGnomer on Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:29 am

Rolling is good.

What might be even better is a rolling distro with timely updates to key components. Opinions naturally vary, but let's just say this entails kernel, DE (say, Gnome here, although some Gnome devs get very grumpy is you use the term "desktop" these days..), X.org and possibly some most central apps like browser and LibreOffice.

I realize anything's timely compared to Debian Stable, but as the Debian CUT proposal successfully argues, in terms of bug-fixing and reporting, using the most current versions of software is generally ideal. Versions that are still getting .point updates and close developer attention...

I'm probably preaching to the converted here, but wouldn't it be great if some developers from each of those key projects could be persuaded to use Mint Debian as their reference release build, fixing and testing platform? I'm only talking about building and maintaining their latest official releases here.

The MintUpdate manager could still be used for allowing slightly more conservative users to choose updating only when the "upstream releases" have been vetted and okayed for interoperability by the Mint Debian developers and feedback from cutting-edge users.

I realize that the above scenario presents a real "testing case" challenge, but I've always dreamt of not having to wait for many, many moons until I get to enjoy of the freshest, mintiest fruit. :wink:
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Re: Really rolling?

Postby Lolo Uila on Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:37 pm

MALsPa wrote:
ej64 wrote:Seems to me that one could accomplish the same thing by using Synaptic instead of mintUpdate if you mark all upgrades and apply (here's where it would be nice to have that "Mark All Upgrades" button put back in Synaptic! -- is it there in LMDE, by the way?).

Yea, kinda sucks they removed that button. But it's pretty easy to create a custom filter to do the same thing.
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