LMDE Chaos Theory!

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LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby viking777 on Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:32 pm

There is a massive interest in LMDE at the moment and that is not surprising as to my mind it is the best thing to have happened to Linux for years. But I can see a big problem rearing up in the near future. I have already read dozens of posts from folks saying - I want my LMDE track debian stable or I want it to track sid or even I want it to track aptosid or a mixture of all three!! Then there are those that want to go for the names like I wan't to track Squeeze or Lenny or whatever. Well all that is great, it is your machine and you do what you want with it, I fully support your right to do that. But please get one thing straight, LMDE tracks testing, nothing else just testing. If you change your sources to track anything else you are not using LMDE you are using a distribution of your own making and therefore to my mind you should not post any problems you may have in the LMDE forum (unless it is divided into subforums for the various sources you have, which I doubt will happen). If you do alter your sources and post here the forum will become unmanageable as the number of variables will be beyond the capacity of anybody to respond unless they have the same sources as you, and most won't have because, like me, they will remain on testing.
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby rivenathos on Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:37 pm

Point made. Yes, there probably needs to be some kind of disclaimer in the forum saying that any deviation from the LMDE setup can lead to unforeseen consequences. It is great to experiment, but it is going to be extremely difficult to help troubleshoot LMDE installations with all the different factors coming into play.
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby tdockery97 on Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:04 pm

It's good to see this point brought up. This should be required reading for all LMDE users and potential users. Perhaps Clem could do a Blog posting bringing this to the community's attention.
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby vrkalak on Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:33 pm

I see these same kind of posts over in the Debian User Forums.

Someone complains about Debian (stable) -- crashing or not being very stable or everything is outdated?

Debian is well-known for being rock solid stable -- always.
Debian only releases a new release when it is 'bug-free' ... when it's ready -- or it's not released.

People need to remember, as you have stated, that once you change things . . . .
Add another Repro or alter the sources.list in any way ... you are no longer using Debian's stable release but a distro of your own making.

If you have Debian stable and you keep up with the updates ... you're good to go.
Whichever Apps you add from the 'stable' repros are good ... everything else, not so much.
As everything in the stable repros have been thoroughly tried and tested.

All these same things apply to LMDE .... stay with Squeeze (new stable) release and you've got an awesome, very stable OS . . . now 'testing' on the other hand?

Don't get me wrong ... I love and use 'testing' and it has proven to be quite stable on it's own. But, 'testing' is not the stable branch of Debian.
. . . . . . . . .

EXAMPLE:
"How come the 2.6.32 kernel in Debian stable / LMDE is so out-of-date? The newest kernel is 2.6.37"

Granted the newest 'stable' release of the Linux Kernel is 2.6.37 . . . but, that kernel has not been found to be as stable as Debian wants. 100% bug-free
And the testing of the kernel goes on ... when it is found stable enough to pass approval through Debian 'unstable' it moves on to Debian 'testing' for another round of testing and bug-fixes.
Once it has passed through all other branches of Debian, the new kernel will be added to the Debian stable repros and upgraded.
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby zerozero on Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:38 pm

1- This is power of Linux - the freedom!
2- I agree that once one change his original setup (i did) should be fully responsible for that;
3- A reminder to the former, yes, maybe should be more visible.
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby gotjazz on Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:31 pm

absolutely - as long as this doesn't turn into sidux.

"Boohooo you used apt-get autoremove and have therefore broken your computer and noone should even think about your problem"
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby Rifester on Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:02 pm

I agree with all of this... I have seen posts from people stating they have been using linux for 2-3 months, they have installed LMDE, and they want to run SID. I am torn between posting to stop them (and ask them WHY?) and letting them get into a situation that forces them to learn... Using Debian has made me learn. I know enough to know I don't know enough, and don't often do things to compromise my system. People want to install things outside of the repos (but want stable)). At some point you have to learn you can't have it both ways... When I switched to Debian I went back several versions on every application that I use. I have found that I don't miss anything except one feature Amazon store in Banshee), but I am willing to live with it because of the stability Debian offers. I get bored, I get adventurous, and I have pushed enter when I shouldn't have. I do believe that there should be some statement about LMDE and switching to stable or sid. Should users that switch expect to be "on their own"? I don't really see what could go wrong tracking stable... But I don't believe people who are not experienced with package management should run Sid. I have considered it, but know that I am still not where I need to be. I think.


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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby rhodry on Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:27 pm

I agree that this has the potential for some difficulty, but, having said that, the Debian Forums face the same thing every day and they seem to cope ok. Different resource base I know, but perhaps they've just had longer to deal with it.

A fairly constant 'sticky' education system will probably help. Maybe asking people to enter something like this command in a terminal & post result will help quickly identify where they are coming from:

$grep "debian" /etc/apt/sources.list

In my case

deb http://mirror.waia.asn.au/pub/linux/lin ... mint-repo/ debian main upstream import backport
# deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian testing main contrib non-free
# deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free
deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org testing main non-free
deb http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb http://mirror.internode.on.net/pub/debian-security/ testing/updates main contrib non-free
# deb http://liquorix.net/debian sid main

it is fairly clear to see that I am tracking testing so LMDE is ok, I run a local Mint mirror, my ISP's local debian mirrors and debian multimedia. I also tried out the liquorix kernels ( and changed back to standard btw). Any one experienced can see the perspective for my question.

Pointing out to newbies particularly that they risk being ignored unless they make the effort to inform the group about their environment when asking questions.

Like the "Linux is not Windows" stuff; LMDE is not Squeeze (permanently), LMDE is not Debian Stable, LMDE is not Debian Sid - LMDE IS DEBIAN TESTING ++ MINT EXTRAS!! It will take a while, but I think we will get there.

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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby MALsPa on Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:25 am

viking777 wrote:If you change your sources to track anything else you are not using LMDE you are using a distribution of your own making and therefore to my mind you should not post any problems you may have in the LMDE forum


I hope this remains only a "suggestion" and doesn't become a forum rule.
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby craig10x on Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:35 am

The problem with going off and doing "your own thing" with LMDE is that if you don't keep it to the default (which is debian testing) you won't be giving the proper feedback to Clem and the team as to how this system is working out and what improvements may help...When you were on main edition, you were on an ubuntu base and willing to accept that..why this mad dash to change it to other things (like debian stable, unstable, whatever) ?

Use the system as it is presented to you....LMDE is already an excellent distro for the short time it has been around...help them make it even better! :wink:

They are putting in a lot of work to make this great...help them out...run the system as it is MEANT to be run :)
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby viking777 on Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:55 am

MALsPa wrote:
viking777 wrote:If you change your sources to track anything else you are not using LMDE you are using a distribution of your own making and therefore to my mind you should not post any problems you may have in the LMDE forum


I hope this remains only a "suggestion" and doesn't become a forum rule.


by gotjazz on Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:31 pm
absolutely - as long as this doesn't turn into sidux.

"Boohooo you used apt-get autoremove and have therefore broken your computer and noone should even think about your problem"


Yes good points from both of you. Maybe it would have been better to say:


you should not post any problems you may have in the LMDE forum without first making it clear that you are not using LMDE


But then in that case the best place to post would be 'Other Distributions' because that is what it is.
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby MALsPa on Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:50 am

craig10x wrote:Use the system as it is presented to you...


I understand the point that's being made, but... How many people DON'T use the system as it was presented? Debian Stable users use Backports. Ubuntu and Mint users use PPAs. In Fedora, I use some of the Fedora People repos. Folks are doing different things to their systems all the time. I always add alternative DEs and/or WMs and so forth. It's never how the system was presented to me.
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby bobcollard on Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:26 am

See my signature. I agree, nothing is pure if you change it. Freedom means using whatever desktop or kernel you choose. If I have a problem the specifics of my system are on hand for those capable of reading. If people would make the necessary system changes available to the forum then we should be able to help them, but, on an average you get something like: "I got a problem" With nothing to go on.
Edit: I have not altered the Software Sources, it is still "Testing."
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby craig10x on Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:18 pm

Well then i think it is important (when they post about a problem) that they specify...i am using the debian unstable back end on this i added kde desktop...or whatever, just so that if anyone on the team reads it they don't think it's a problem relating to the default set-up...otherwise, it will create a lot of confusion :wink:

I'm sure most here would agree on that :)
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby VK7HSE on Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:13 pm

I accept the points raised in this thread, personally I've changed my sources to track Debian Sid. This is entirely my choice as I'm totally comfortable with the fact that I may experience some breakage, but this is never going to be the fault of LMDE! as this is a end user choice and I accept that I'm on my own!

I use Debian Sid on my main desktop pc for daily use, so I'm familiar with the idiosyncrasies that pertain with it. Personally I see LMDE as Debian with mint addtions, and at this stage until there's a defined path testing is the official release, but if you do alter the sources.list then you are in effect running a hybrid system.

Just my 2 cents worth!

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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby DrHu on Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:29 pm

Yes, I think tracking the Debian testing sources is the best bet, and likely what most people want, the newest apps and the latest fairly stable sources

And just as in every other mixed or combination sources setup, whether you add in ppa or other you are risking your system, if you are in any way unsure of its operation..
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby autocrosser on Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:21 pm

Well---I have also changed my sources to sid---on 1 of my installs..,...I always keep a "baseline" install to compare to (and to have when the "unstable" one I use b0rks up--comes from my years of testing Ubuntu ;) ). That most likely makes me "abnormal?"---I have a converted Natty-Testing-to-Mint 10, a "stock" Mint 10, a Sid-Mint Debian, a "stock" Mint Debian, A Elive 2.0 & "cough" a Xpee install currently in my system---I feel comfortable running my system that way & have plenty of backups if problems crop up..... That being said--I agree that if one is not running a rather "stock" config---that should be made VERY clear when one is asking for help---or a separate thread should be setup for "custom" installs.

About options during install---I had said that it would be "fun" to have the option to choose "stable" or "testing" or "sid" during install---upon reflection I retract that thought...Let's keep it on "testing" as currently done---at least until there is enough manpower to branch to the other 2 options......I for one would help in testing a Mint-Sid-Debian variant at the drop of a suggestion............
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby sgosnell on Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:05 pm

I'll bet that the percentage of users who maintain a stock LMDE system approaches zero. As soon as you add a package, any package, your system is different, and everybody adds packages. Insisting on maintaining a stock LMDE system as a prerequisite for asking for help with a problem is breathtakingly arrogant and elitist. If LMDE can't handle changes, then it's simply not a viable distro, and if the forums can't help people with problems unless they have a completely stock install, then they're essentially worthless. I don't want to see that.
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby zerozero on Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:55 pm

Alternatively, since a core focus of the aptosid project is providing a safe and consistent upgrade path for the debian "Unstable" aka "sid" repository, it's possible that a word relating to tools, packages or processes which greatly increase the risk of compromising the stability of your system has been included in the censor list. This will only happen in extreme cases, with the more likely outcome being that a moderator or admin will move the thread to the Experimental section of the forums.


For software deemed so unsafe for your system that it has been censored, there will be no aptosid support channel that will endorse or support it. It is critical you understand the risk you are taking, what the software does and how it can damage your system, and that it will make it much more difficult to get assistance from aptosid users and developers for future problems on this system.

taken from the the aptosid forum here http://aptosid.com/index.php?module=Con ... iew&pid=10

Replace the words aptosid for Mint and sid for testing and you get an idea of what is proposed in this thread!!

I don't wan't want this in my forum!!
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Re: LMDE Chaos Theory!

Postby Rifester on Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:20 pm

I don't think anybody is implying that the Mint Forums should assume the same conditions as the Debian or Aptosid forums for support. What I do think is being suggested, is that people are advised of what is supported by Mint, and that is running testing...
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