Can we improve MintUpdate?

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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby viking777 on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:55 am

You are wrong here


No I am not, because you are talking about scripts and I am talking about terminal commands - very different.


It'd be better idea to type exit, instead of fish
.

That certainly is true.

In case you are interested the way I start fish is simply to amend the current terminal program launcher or keyboard shortcut whichever you use to look like this. Instead of:

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gnome-terminal


You use:

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gnome-terminal -e fish


Or, If you have a shortcut to a root terminal you use:

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gksu "/usr/bin/gnome-terminal -e fish"
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby jeffreyC on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Regarding the earlier statement to only upgrade out of X

The creator of smxi is changing it to be mostly runnable in X.

He is moving away from the dogmatic position of the Aptosid group

Personally I have always used Synaptic to upgrade because it tells me what it is going to do before it does it.
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby h2-1 on Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:22 am

"He is moving away from the dogmatic position of the Aptosid group"

That happened some years ago now, so I'd say a 'he long ago moved away from... ' would be more accurate. Take everything those guys say with a large dose of salt, a single grain is not nearly adequate, you may need a shovel. Sometimes they say true things, sometimes not, sometimes they happen to be right by chance, sometimes not, I consider nothing from them as truth or correct until it's been externally verified.

Here's the deal with upgrading in X for regular users who don't really know what all the packages mean in an upgrade:

If gnome updates, it must be restarted to be safe, same with kde. If xorg updates, or if a new kernel is installed, and if non free drivers are used, they must be reinstalled. If distro packaged drivers like nvidia-glx or fglrx-driver are used, no x restart is required instantly, but it should be done soon.

If the direct binary install of drivers is required, those CANNOT be done in x, period.

So basically what I've looked at re supporting updates in X was testing the upgrade package list for all core kde/gnome packages, if they are present, alert user they must restart desktop to be safe. If user runs nvidia or fglrx non free driver and xorg updates, alert user they must reinstall the driver. Same goes for new kernel. smxi already tells users they have to reinstall non free drivers if xorg or kernel updates, it tracks the versions pre and post upgrade and then determines if they have changed.

However, since only one case handles all users all the time safely, that is the upgrade out of X with the desktop killed, that's what I've opted for as an imperfect solution to this complicated set of scenarios.

Re dogmatic claims in general, test for yourself, test with others, and see. Of course, don't make the mistake of thinking, ah, one test case works, therefore all work, the ideal is all working, or at least most of them.

As an initial test I added the -G option, which lets you run all parts of smxi except the warning/upgrade section in X, no problems there of course. G for Gui-mode.

I've been lazy re really testing and implementing the last step, it's a lot of work and requires fairly heavy scripting to make sure all cases, or most, are correctly handled, and since smxi already has the main case of do it out of X working for all users all the time, the motivation has not been heavy on my part to spend more time to achieve what can at best be only imperfect results.

However, I may add even more features soon, in package install, a fairly complete, except for illegal in some areas codecs/packages, multimedia installer section. We'll see.
smxi/sgfxi site (manuals, how-to's, faqs) :: script forums :: Check out inxi sys info script!
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby Cliff on Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:10 am

Hi Folks,
I have been using MintUpdate levels 1,2,3 on LMDE with no problems (so far).
After reading the update discussion I enabled levels 4 & 5 in MintUpdate and then went to synaptic and checked the upgradable packages for comparison.
They are identical. I then checked and found that VLC and libva1 were replaced on the 17th March apparently with no problems - none that I could see anyway. So far all is well.
I also believe as most of you do that LMDE needs a different way of handling/notifying the updates.
I never really worry too much about breaking my system with updates.
I have root and home on separate partitions so I can reinstall the system in about 15-20 minutes, download my favorite packages and I'm back in business. But then I would have to determine why it broke.
Overall I must say I'm happier with Mint than any other distro and I've tried and installed quite a few since 2006.

Anyway, keep the ideas and advice coming.
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby adolson on Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:10 pm

I just changed my second of three PCs to LMDE, and I wanted to upgrade everything. I set up MU to all 5 levels, but it comes back and tells me to "fix broken packages first." (I checked for these broken packages in Synaptic and on the command line, and nothing is broken...)

So I did as advised earlier in the thread and installed update-manager, and this is what I get:

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dana@jadis:~$ update-manager
/usr/share/themes/Shiki-Wise/gtk-2.0/gtkrc:126: Murrine configuration option "gradients" is no longer supported and will be ignored.
[CRITICAL:UpdateManager.Application] Invalid implementation name LinuxMint
dana@jadis:~$ sudo update-manager
[CRITICAL:UpdateManager.Application] Invalid implementation name LinuxMint
dana@jadis:~$ ps aux | grep -i upda
dana     11173  0.0  0.0      0     0 ?        Z    16:34   0:00 [update-manager] <defunct>


I am not sure why this is happening, but clearly something isn't ready for Mint in update-manager.

I thought Synaptic would work. It could be more user-friendly, as it hasn't really changed a whole lot since the first time I tried it (though I thought the last time I tried it, there was a button for updating - that's gone on LMDE? or maybe a config file or something in my /home that's tripping it out?). In any case, I tried to do a system upgrade with it next, so as far as I can tell, I need to go to Status > Installed (upgradeable), then click on a package, then press Ctrl+A to select all, then right-click and go to Mark For Upgrade, then I am presented with a list of additional changes, so I have to click Mark, and then it breaks:

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gstreamer0.10-plugins-really-bad:
  Depends: libgstreamer-plugins-base0.10-0 (>=0.10.32) but 0.10.30-1 is to be installed


*sigh*

apt-get dist-upgrade on the command line is smarter:

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The following packages have been kept back:
  gstreamer0.10-plugins-really-bad


I have run Linux exclusively for nearly a decade (I'm counting), and I've spent most of that time running Debian, and then Ubuntu, and now I'm here (wanting to get away from Ubuntu's brand-happy stupid decisions - they can't even make their Dropbox clone work properly, and here they want to make their own desktop? No thanks..).

I don't have a problem with the command line whatsoever myself, but it'd be nice to have something that works as well as apt-get dist-upgrade for those users who are not as seasoned (and just for general usability - i.e.: I'd use a GUI tool if it worked). I don't know what it would take to get update-manager working with LMDE, but it mostly seemed to work well on Ubuntu for me. I think that'd maybe be the solution here, but if it can't/won't be done, and MU is not going to cut it as is, why not just have an even simpler app for these rolling versions (call it MintRoll? MintRollOn? I don't know) that just monitors for updates as MU does, and then when there are updates, the tray icon indicates as such? When the user clicks, it just lists all the changes the exact same way that apt-get does (formatted how Synaptic does it, or prettier/better), and then allows the user to cancel or accept, and then it just does it. There could be a handful of options or warnings as well, like a safety to only allow upgrades (or warn when upgrading) if nothing is held back, a kernel is being updated, conflicts, or whatever. I don't know python at all, which is unfortunate, and I already have my hands full with PHP for my home projects and Perl at work, or I'd try to whip this up myself. It doesn't seem too difficult.
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby zerozero on Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:14 pm

Adolson, hi and welcome to Mint :)

just a few notes about your post:
1- by update-manager i assume you are talking about Ubuntu's update manager, right? if so, it's always a bad idea to mix ubuntu and debian pkgs in a debian system, ubuntu is no more debian-compatible and sooner or latter something is going to break, and above all leave the upgrade tasks to an alien pkg; not the best idea, imho;

2- MU 4.2.8 handles better LMDE updates, you can follow a discussion about it here viewtopic.php?f=34&t=69859 , but if you feel comfortable with the terminal as it seem use for now apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade;

3- or synaptic, you will find that in v0.75 the mark all upgrades button is back;

4- about
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gstreamer0.10-plugins-really-bad
, just don't worry, it's broken in LMDE now, not only in your system, the fix will roll-on soon :)

have fun with LMDE
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby vincent on Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:12 pm

zerozero wrote:1- by update-manager i assume you are talking about Ubuntu's update manager, right? if so, it's always a bad idea to mix ubuntu and debian pkgs in a debian system, ubuntu is no more debian-compatible and sooner or latter something is going to break, and above all leave the upgrade tasks to an alien pkg; not the best idea, imho;


Nope. Ubuntu's update-manager was backported to Debian (and a lot of other Ubuntu-branded tools, e.g. Software Center), and is even installed by default if you choose to install a "Desktop environment" as one of tasksel's choices (during an installation of Debian proper). To clarify, you should not install a package directly from Debian's repositories in Ubuntu, and vice versa, but that does not mean that Debian and Ubuntu can share their work with each other; in fact, with many packages, all you may need to do is just dget the sources from Ubuntu, and use debuild/pbuilder to build it on your Debian system, without needing to make any modifications. And in fact, 74% of all packages in Ubuntu's repositories come directly from Debian, unchanged except for being rebuilt in an Ubuntu environment (18% of Ubuntu's packages are imported from Debian with varying degrees of modifications, and 7% are Ubuntu-only packages).

Back to update-manager...this is irrelevant to Mint/LMDE anyways, since it uses mintUpdate.

zerozero wrote:4- about
Code: Select all
gstreamer0.10-plugins-really-bad
, just don't worry, it's broken in LMDE now, not only in your system, the fix will roll-on soon :)


For clarification, this isn't an issue with Mint, it's an issue with the Debian Multimedia repository, and only for users who are using Debian Multimedia's testing branch as opposed to unstable.
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby adolson on Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:23 am

vincent wrote:
zerozero wrote:1- by update-manager i assume you are talking about Ubuntu's update manager, right? if so, it's always a bad idea to mix ubuntu and debian pkgs in a debian system, ubuntu is no more debian-compatible and sooner or latter something is going to break, and above all leave the upgrade tasks to an alien pkg; not the best idea, imho;


Nope. Ubuntu's update-manager was backported to Debian (and a lot of other Ubuntu-branded tools, e.g. Software Center), and is even installed by default if you choose to install a "Desktop environment" as one of tasksel's choices (during an installation of Debian proper). To clarify, you should not install a package directly from Debian's repositories in Ubuntu, and vice versa, but that does not mean that Debian and Ubuntu can share their work with each other; in fact, with many packages, all you may need to do is just dget the sources from Ubuntu, and use debuild/pbuilder to build it on your Debian system, without needing to make any modifications. And in fact, 74% of all packages in Ubuntu's repositories come directly from Debian, unchanged except for being rebuilt in an Ubuntu environment (18% of Ubuntu's packages are imported from Debian with varying degrees of modifications, and 7% are Ubuntu-only packages).

Back to update-manager...this is irrelevant to Mint/LMDE anyways, since it uses mintUpdate.

zerozero wrote:4- about
Code: Select all
gstreamer0.10-plugins-really-bad
, just don't worry, it's broken in LMDE now, not only in your system, the fix will roll-on soon :)


For clarification, this isn't an issue with Mint, it's an issue with the Debian Multimedia repository, and only for users who are using Debian Multimedia's testing branch as opposed to unstable.


I dunno if you use LMDE or not (your sig doesn't indicate it) or how much you know about it, and I know nothing about Mint 9/10. LMDE, however, does use Debian Multimedia out-of-the-box, and it's based on Debian testing.

I mentioned update-manager as a potential solution because it was suggested earlier in the thread, and because mintUpdate was not working correctly.

My entire post might have been pointless, now that I see the other thread linked by zerozero. I didn't see that thread earlier when I posted, and it looks like a lot of fixes have come to mintUpdate. That's good news - and I'll give it a shot once I've updated my systems (I have now converted all three to LMDE, fresh installs off the 201101 ISO). I've also set up apt-cacher-ng, for faster updates on all three systems. Hopefully a new ISO will be built soon, as I've been praising the distro to some co-workers who have been using outdated Ubuntu installs for far too long. :) Anyhow.
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby wayne128 on Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:48 am

I dunno if you use LMDE or not (your sig doesn't indicate it) or how much you know about it, and I know nothing about Mint 9/10. LMDE, however, does use Debian Multimedia out-of-the-box, and it's based on Debian testing.


Oh please..
signature might not tell much.

read these and you should understand how much vincent knew about LMDE.
these tutorial was create before the LMDE 64-bit was released.
http://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/197
http://community.linuxmint.com/tutorial/view/198

I have benefited by following his tutorial too.
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby mads on Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:27 am

Hi!

I would like to know if mintUpdate (Update Manager) asks the user to keep/overwrite configuration files or if it automatically installs the package maintainer's version. Thanks.
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby adolson on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:48 pm

wayne128 wrote:Oh please..
signature might not tell much.

read these and you should understand how much vincent knew about LMDE.


OK, that's nice... I wasn't trying to offend him or his fans, nor was I assuming anything negative. I was simply stating some truths about the default LMDE setup; I didn't research everyone who posted in the thread.

I'll be more careful before I bother posting anything here again. Please accept my deepest apologies.
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby CiaW on Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:22 am

mads wrote:I would like to know if mintUpdate (Update Manager) asks the user to keep/overwrite configuration files or if it automatically installs the package maintainer's version. Thanks.

I discovered this morning the answer to your question is that it will ask whether to keep or overwrite the config files and give you an option to see the differences first. I had an update to cups-pdf and it asked, and I had it install the package maintainers (new) config. file.
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby mads on Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:18 pm

CiaW wrote:
mads wrote:I would like to know if mintUpdate (Update Manager) asks the user to keep/overwrite configuration files or if it automatically installs the package maintainer's version. Thanks.

I discovered this morning the answer to your question is that it will ask whether to keep or overwrite the config files and give you an option to see the differences first. I had an update to cups-pdf and it asked, and I had it install the package maintainers (new) config. file.

At last!
Thank you very much CiaW. :D
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby zerozero on Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:19 pm

mads wrote:
CiaW wrote:
mads wrote:I would like to know if mintUpdate (Update Manager) asks the user to keep/overwrite configuration files or if it automatically installs the package maintainer's version. Thanks.

I discovered this morning the answer to your question is that it will ask whether to keep or overwrite the config files and give you an option to see the differences first. I had an update to cups-pdf and it asked, and I had it install the package maintainers (new) config. file.

At last!
Thank you very much CiaW. :D


hi mads, you missed this one :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=69859&p=406354#p406173
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby mads on Sat Apr 09, 2011 8:00 pm

zerozero wrote:hi mads, you missed this one :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=69859&p=406354#p406173

Thanks. :)

Is something wrong with the forums? I didn't get any "Topic reply notifications"!
When I checked it was several new posts there. :shock:
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PINNING in Synaptic does not work with Mint Update

Postby GeneC on Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:54 am

Since the latest MintUpade upgrade (4.2.9), I noticed that an app I had "pinned" in synaptic is NOT reconized when using MintUpdate.
This installation is tracking SID, but that should not matter,
Tomboy Notes is pinned at 1.2.2 (there is a bug in 1.6), but MintUpdate would upgrade it anyway.
Not good!

I would use Synaptic for updates, as I ususally did, but the "Mark all Upgrades" is gone (Yes, its .075)

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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby ukbrian on Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:28 am

Since the latest MintUpdate upgrade (4.2.9), I noticed that an app I had "pinned" in synaptic is NOT recognized when using MintUpdate.
When Tomboy Notes shows in MintUpdate right click on it and you can pin it there, I had the same problem with Xvidcap which I had pinned in Synaptic because the versions in the repos are crap with audio.

I think MintUpdate is coming on really well, thanks for your efforts Clem & team. :D I think the repo snapshots idea is bril and will make LMDE a much easier package for newcomers which should be the aim of any distro:D
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby GeneC on Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:36 am

ukbrian wrote:
Since the latest MintUpdate upgrade (4.2.9), I noticed that an app I had "pinned" in synaptic is NOT recognized when using MintUpdate.
When Tomboy Notes shows in MintUpdate right click on it and you can pin it there, I had the same problem with Xvidcap which I had pinned in Synaptic because the versions in the repos are crap with audio.

I think MintUpdate is coming on really well, thanks for your efforts Clem & team. :D I think the repo snapshots idea is bril and will make LMDE a much easier package for newcomers which should be the aim of any distro:D


Thanks for the tip ukbrian. :wink:
I am sure this works, but also can see lots of people getting updates to things they THINK they have pinned in synaptic, and Mint Update ignores. Something folks should be aware of...
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby ukbrian on Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:48 am

Thanks for the tip ukbrian. :wink:
I am sure this works, but also can see lots of people getting updates to things they THINK they have pinned in synaptic, and Mint Update ignores. Something folks should be aware of...
Agreed but MintUpdate is under development.
Life is easier if you do regular image backups as I know you do with Clonezilla, I dual boot my machines with Windows for the odd app so I use the free version of Macrium Reflect which I have reliably used for over two years without any problems.
I've used Acronis and others in the past but I really like Macrium's GUI, I keep meaning to do a video walk through for it.
http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.asp

PS maybe this thread should be sticky?
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Re: Can we improve MintUpdate?

Postby GeneC on Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:02 pm

ukbrian wrote:...... Agreed but MintUpdate is under development......



Yes, I seem to be just a tad short of patience, today... :)
As I didn't use MintUpdate, I found the changes it made to Synaptic particularly aggravating.
But it does look like MintUpdate is coming along well.
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