Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See...

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Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See...

Postby malligt on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:42 am

I recently installed Crunchbang Statler on a old desktop computer.

After the installer completed, and I rebooted, I was offered several "options"---one of which was the "option" to select and install the liquorix kernel and have it be the default kernel. (The default debian kernel is still installed, too.)

For what it's worth, It also offers another option---- to install xfce.

I thought WOW! They (the Crunchbang Development Team) really get it! How nice! So, I selected the option for the liquorix kernel, and have been favorably impressed.

So, as a suggestion here, why can't the MINT DEV Team, code-in this kernel option during the LMDE installation? Seems like a really great idea to me. Might smooth out some of the "rough edges".

Since MINT LMDE is a dvd installation, why not offer these options? We can't be talking about too much additional disc space on a dvd.

Before someone writes back flaming me to say that, yes, YOU, the owner, can install the liquorix kernel at anytime, which I already know, The point is simply one of convenience.

Thanks!
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby viking777 on Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:36 pm

Oh please never let this happen :(

Despite my puny knowledge of Linux, I still try to help people with computer problems, and nothing infuriates me more than to spend about 15 posts racking my brain trying to fix somebody's problem only to be told that "Oh, BTW, I am using the Debian Experimental repos and a kernel I downloaded from somewhere in the Andromeda galaxy" :evil: (OK it is a very long download - and a very old kernel by the time it gets here :lol: )

Of course in that situation I can just ignore them, but if alternative kernels are made a part of the standard LMDE install, I would just have to give up trying.
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby gavinhc on Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:46 pm

I understand viking's concerns with offering alternative kernels through official Mint channels. I don't think we should do that unless we are willing to fully support people who encounter problems.

Having said that, when I installed Crunchbang to try it out, the post-installation script was the thing I was most impressed with. On top of offering the Liquorix kernel, it asked if you would like to install additional desktop environments, software development tools, some proprietary software (e.g. the Sun Java VM), replace abiword and gnumeric with OpenOffice and some other things I'm probably forgetting. I can see Mint doing a lot worse than mimicking this and giving users the option to install additional DEs from the repos (no need to make the ISO bigger that way). This could also incorporate the proprietary graphics driver installation that many have asked for.

malligt wrote:Since MINT LMDE is a dvd installation, why not offer these options? We can't be talking about too much additional disc space on a dvd.

For what it's worth, I think all the new things Crunchbang gives you the option to download using this script come straight from the repositories, so they don't make the ISO bigger. Crunchbang does fit on a CD after all.
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby M_onkeyman on Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:04 pm

Since Ikey supposedly is out of LM team, and considering he was the LMDE maintainer, it'll probably be awhile before some of those CrunchBang features are in LMDE
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby Halzen on Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:08 pm

LMDE's entire installation process is due for an overhaul, so I don't see why we can't add functions like those mentioned in this thread. Since Mint Debian isn't typically used by "Linux newbies" (who are more likely to use Ubuntu or Mintbuntu), a few post-install functions wouldn't be terrible.
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby panzer on Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:56 pm

M_onkeyman wrote:Since Ikey supposedly is out of LM team, and considering he was the LMDE maintainer, it'll probably be awhile before some of those CrunchBang features are in LMDE


Maybe I missed something, but do you mean there is no more maintainer of LMDE at the moment :?:
Just asking, because I love LMDE but if nobody is working on this project, then why should I stay with this distro?
Thanks for your answer.

(Sorry for my bad English)
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby Roken on Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:00 pm

I love LMDE but if nobody is working on this project, then why should I stay with this distro?


Because it works, and it will go on working and being updated. Because LMDE is based on Debian testing and is a rolling distro, after the initial install apart from a couple of "unique to mint" items (mint update, mint menu etc.) it can survice and be updated quite happily on its' own.
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby malligt on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:38 am

@viking

There is no reason to degenerate the liquorix kernel by saying it is from another galaxy. Yes, LMDE and Crunchbang are shipped with the default Debian Squeeze(Crunchbang) and/or Debian Testing(LMDE) kernels respectively.

However, you cannot deny there have been postings on this forum where people have claimed that they could not get certain LMDE elements to work on the default kernel, but worked successfully after installing the liquorix kernel.

Let me name 2 such posts that I recall the liquorix kernel benefiting LMDE users:

1. Hibernation and, 2. printer sharing to a Windows PC.

FWIW, and I am not a linux guru like yourself, nevertheless, I like to keep an open mind of new things I see in linux debian and try them out out, and then openly suggest them to the LMDE maintainers/developers.

I got the Crunchbang information from this very forum (prior to Mint releasing XFCE debian). So, as I see it, it's a win-win situation.

Regards!
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby viking777 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:11 am

malligt wrote:@viking

There is no reason to degenerate the liquorix kernel by saying it is from another galaxy. Yes, LMDE and Crunchbang are shipped with the default Debian Squeeze(Crunchbang) and/or Debian Testing(LMDE) kernels respectively.

However, you cannot deny there have been postings on this forum where people have claimed that they could not get certain LMDE elements to work on the default kernel, but worked successfully after installing the liquorix kernel.

Let me name 2 such posts that I recall the liquorix kernel benefiting LMDE users:

1. Hibernation and, 2. printer sharing to a Windows PC.

FWIW, and I am not a linux guru like yourself, nevertheless, I like to keep an open mind of new things I see in linux debian and try them out out, and then openly suggest them to the LMDE maintainers/developers.

I got the Crunchbang information from this very forum (prior to Mint releasing XFCE debian). So, as I see it, it's a win-win situation.

Regards!


I take your points entirely malligt, and I experiment with my computer and I would encourage those who have the time and inclination to do the same. What I don't encourage is folk who experiment on various kernels/sources etc and then when it goes wrong, post their problems on the LMDE forum, because they aren't using LMDE any more they are using a distribution of their own making and therefore the proper place to post the problem would be under "other distributions". If people don't want to do that then at least they should declare at the beginning of their post that they are not using a standard kernel or sources.

A simple suggestion that others have already adopted is that if you need the liqorix kernel for some reason then don't delete the standard kernel. If you run into a problem then boot into the standard kernel and see if the problem is still present. If it is then it may well be an LMDE problem, but if it goes away then it is not an LMDE problem it is a liqorix problem so post it on their forum instead.

Of course this doesn't work if you change your sources. In that case the only way to test if your problem is really anything to do with LMDE is to have two separate installs, one with standard sources and one with whatever else you want.
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby gavinhc on Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:57 am

viking777 wrote:What I don't encourage is folk who experiment on various kernels/sources etc and then when it goes wrong, post their problems on the LMDE forum, because they aren't using LMDE any more they are using a distribution of their own making and therefore the proper place to post the problem would be under "other distributions".

I have seen you and others post this sentiment on the forum previously and it has me confused.

I understand that installing a kernel other than the default shipped with a distribution would change things significantly enough that it can cause problems that can be hard for other users of the distribution to diagnose, but I do not see how that makes it a distribution of their own making. If we are to accept that changing the kernel makes it a new distribution, what else makes it a new distribution when changed? If I add KDE or Xfce to my LMDE install does that make it something other than LMDE? What about something as minor as installing Chrome or Opera instead of Firefox? Basically what I'm asking is how much of the default software that ships with a distribution needs to be changed before it is a new distribution? (If I understand where your are coming from, I would guess somewhere between my new DE and my new browser examples.)

As a disclaimer, I am not trying to start a flame war or anything, I simply wish to understand where you are coming from with this.
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby mads on Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:16 am

gavinhc wrote:
viking777 wrote:What I don't encourage is folk who experiment on various kernels/sources etc and then when it goes wrong, post their problems on the LMDE forum, because they aren't using LMDE any more they are using a distribution of their own making and therefore the proper place to post the problem would be under "other distributions".

I have seen you and others post this sentiment on the forum previously and it has me confused.

I understand that installing a kernel other than the default shipped with a distribution would change things significantly enough that it can cause problems that can be hard for other users of the distribution to diagnose, but I do not see how that makes it a distribution of their own making.


I must say I agree with viking777. When you install liquorix or any other kernel, you should post your question like this:
I am running a modified version of LMDE with liquorix kernel and I have a problem with my ...
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby viking777 on Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:01 am

@ gavinhc

My opinion is that the two things I have mentioned constitute a 'different' distribution a different kernel or different sources. Certainly not applications or even DE's (I am running Fluxbox on my LMDE - so I would have to ban myself from posting here if that were the case :lol: ). But the thing is I run fluxbox over gnome so if I get a problem which may have been caused by fluxbox I log into gnome and try it out there. If the problem is still present then it is probably LMDE that is at fault. If the problem goes away it is probably Fluxbox that is at fault so I don't post it here.

I would be quite happy with the sort of intro suggested by mads in the previous post at least that gives us a clue, or logging into the correct kernel and testing it out there before posting would do as well.

Please remember this is only my opinion, as always there will be dissenting voices, but I certainly wouldn't think it worth a flame war and I did not interpret your post in that way at all.
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby CiaW on Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:16 am

panzer wrote:
M_onkeyman wrote:Since Ikey supposedly is out of LM team, and considering he was the LMDE maintainer, it'll probably be awhile before some of those CrunchBang features are in LMDE


Maybe I missed something, but do you mean there is no more maintainer of LMDE at the moment :?:
Just asking, because I love LMDE but if nobody is working on this project, then why should I stay with this distro?
Thanks for your answer. (Sorry for my bad English)

Your English was fine. LMDE is being maintained by Clem, as he has recently made updates to the Mint Update package and posted to the LMDE breakages thread. Of course he's also working on the forthcoming Mint 11, etc., but it's not like it's been abandoned or anything. (And I'm not a dev or anything, just a happy LMDE user....)
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Re: Possible Idea For Mint 11 LMDE? Things I'd Like to See.

Postby malligt on Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:02 pm

Back on the original point, about optionally adding the liquorix kernel at the time of initial set-up....

One would have to think that the Mint Dev Team use different kernels when preparing any/all of their wonderful releases, because they have to know that time moves forward, and so do kernels...

http://www.kernel.org/

I would therefore conclude that the Crunchbang team did testing on the liquorix kernel, since they offer anyone the ability to run it on their distro.

FYI...In my own experience with Crunchbang Statler, the optional liquorix kernel that was offered was the 2.6.36 level kernel...

Clem and the Mint Team could do this as well....in my humble opinion.

@viking 777 et al

I do agree and think it is nice for posters to mention what their respective systems are, when asking for any assistance. Or, if it in formation is not present, we should abssolutely feel free to ask what exactly the system config is, rather than go back-forth for 15 exchanges to find it was a 2.6.57 flavor kernel by the original poster?
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