LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

[sackofspuds]

I've spent far too long over the last few days trying to decide which distro to install on my recently acquired but secondhand desktop as a dual boot with Windows 7.

I use LMDE on my laptop and that was the first obvious choice for the desktop. I'd like a distro that can be updated without a complete reinstall, ie, a rolling update of some sort. What concerned me though was the arrival of Gnome 3. Clearly, the disadvantage with a rolling distro is that the latest versions are coming your way, like it or not.

So, I checked out a few of the latest major distros and, having nobody else to talk about such a geeky subject with, thought I'd post my thoughts here.

To get an idea what Gnome 3 looked like I tried out Fedora 15. Now, I'm not too fussy about the desktop manager because I don't tend to tweak it too much. I have compiz running on LMDE which is groovy but, guess what, after the initial "gee whizz" of it all I soon stopped noticing the eye candy or using the "features". So, I found that I could live with Gnome 3 apart from one really irritating thing; the lack of a taskbar. Just to be clear, I found that when I minimised an application in Gnome 3 it just vanished. Yes, I could (as I recall) click top left to view and select minimised applications but found it a hassle.

I've read that you can install taskbars for Gnome 3 but I'm concerned that subsequent updates will break any such taskbar.

So, being a little unimpressed with Gnome 3 I tried Ubuntu 11.04 with its Unity desktop. You know what, I can't remember much about it! However, I'm a bit cautious going down that route because Ubuntu seems to be the only distro using it.

Next up I tried KDE 4.6 via OpenSUSE 11.4. I have to say I really liked it. Has some of the compiz-like features available and OpenSUSE has the advantage of supporting version updates along the lines of apt-get dist-upgrade. There's also a project called Tumbleweed to allow more incremental updates.

Then, just for fun I downloaded the latest LMDE and tried that on my desktop. It reminded me why I like LMDE so much. So darned fast and such an elegant looking desktop.

Guess I probably will go down the LMDE route and take my chances with Gnome 3. However, I am disappointed with the recent fragmentation in terms of desktop manager. I know it's all meant to be about choice but this fragmentation can only slow the adoption of Linux on the desktop. So much wasted time!

[tdockery97]

In the near future LMDE will have a KDE edition as well. I am using one that I constructed myself and am completely satisfied with it. I like being able to use Mint Debian without the inevitable arrival of Gnome 3. Now every time I get the urge to distro-hop I stop and ask myself, "can it really be better than LMDE KDE?". I find that I no longer want to even download and try anything else. Best of luck in your search.

[sackofspuds]

Yup, I have no desire to distro-hop either, hence the attractions with a rolling release like LMDE or at least one that allows version updates without a total reinstall.

A bit off-topic but I find the multitude of distros and desktop managers rather depressing. Just strikes me as making it less likely that Linux desktop gains market share. Also emphasises how Linux desktop is more of an enthusiast's OS than a commercial one. If all the development effort went into improving a couple of distros, perhaps Linux desktop would give Windows more of a run for its money. Playing devil's advocate, couldn't Mint have been an installation option for Debian rather than a whole different distro?

Of course, on the server side it's a different story and Linux servers have very significant market share. I was introduced to Linux via web and mail servers and it's this area where I'd like to improve my skills. Googling the stats on Linux web server usage, I found a site that said that CentOS has about 38% share with Redhat on around 12% so 50% for the Redhat based distros. Debian has around 30% and Ubuntu about 18% so 48% total for the Debian based ones. The rest combined have about 2% and this includes OpenSUSE which I was a bit surprised about. On the job ads it's Redhat / CentOS that outnumber Debian / Ubuntu several times over.

Again, sorry this is off-topic.

[craig10x]

tdockery97 i know is very happy with his "kde-ized" LMDE....

However, i would like to point out that you may not have to go kde, xfce, fluxbox or whatever just to escape the unity or shell of gnome3...Even though it will be necessary for Clem to go gnome3 because gnome2 is no longer supported, gnome 3 offers the "fallback mode" and as i mentioned in other threads, it shouldn't be all that difficult for Clem to USE the fallback, set it to the gnome mint desktop we have always known and loved (lol) and still keep it as the standard desktop in both ubuntu based main edition as well as LMDE gnome version too...Of course you will have the OPTION of installing either unity or gnome shell from the repos no doubt...

As for myself, i had used LMDE for a few months, got discouraged by breakage and mint updater problems and returned to Mint 11 main edition but since the "re-spin" iso has finalized, i re-installed LMDE 64 bit and running it now...Since Mint updater was customized for debian testing and using the new "update packs" pointed to the default "latest" i am hoping to STAY with LMDE now, especially if it will now be possible to have a pretty smooth and reliable system...I too prefer rolling release because with the main edition i always give in to the temptation of installing the latest version of Mint

And with LMDE i won't have to

[autocrosser]

I'm the author of the Gnome3/Gnome-Shell thread & if you go the "fallback" Gnome route you will not have as many options as Gnome2----BUT Gnome3 is gaining every day--more options are being added & the interface is increasingly being smoothed out & speedups are happing all the time.

Plus---you can peer into Gnome-Shell whenever you want by just ticking the choice at GDM.... We are working hard to flesh out Gnome-Shell & make it more friendly...

So, not as many options right now, but all the future goodies will be available....not a bad thing at all...

I'm running "Expermintal" sources & have not had downtime or b0rkage for 3 months now...not bad for the raw-bleeding edge end of the distro

[henrydubb]

So, is the latest LMDE Gnome 3. System Manager says I am running Gnome 3.0.2. So is this fallback mode or am I misunderstanding something. It feels like Gnome 2.

[autocrosser]

If it feels like Gnome2, you are running the fallback mode. You would have a panel set like Gnome2 & the look/feel is almost the same. Only "real" difference is that there are less options. Browse gnomelook.org & start picking up GTK3 themes & you are set to go.....See if you can install Gnome-Tweak (right now it not working though) to change your theme options...

[michaelzap]

I'm actually coming at this with goals more like autocrosser's (so maybe you'll have some tips for me). I think that I'm ready to try Gnome Shell on my main production machine, but I want to run it on LMDE. I have a separate Fedora partition on which I've been testing and tweaking Gnome Shell to my liking, but I want a Debian system (and I really like the new updating method in LMDE).

A while back I got Gnome Shell running on Debian using the experimental repos, but it wasn't stable enough to use for work. I see now that the experimental repos have much more up-to-date Gnome 3 packages than they did then. I don't want to risk borking my main system constantly, especially since I'll be running it on an encrypted partition and that always makes repair and recovery more difficult.

I'm also psyched to try Gnome 3.2 when it comes out, but I expect that I'll need to be patient and wait for the packages to trickle into Debian again.

Back when Unity was released, I tried it for a while and really didn't like it. Besides the general (and rapidly increasing) bloat in Ubuntu compared to Debian, I just didn't think that the Unity devs had any coherent plan or design principles at all, and my work flow was hard to adapt to the Unity UI. Half a year later or so, I think that I understand why they split off from Gnome Shell and created Unity instead, although I still believe that it was a mistake and damaging to the Linux software community. Unity is much more touchscreen-friendly than Gnome Shell, and I think they're betting heavily on that technology over keyboards and mice (or magic trackpads or whatever else is the next big thing). I have an Android tablet that I love and an iPod Touch that I use a lot, so I definitely get the affinity for touch screens that seems to be driving most UI design nowadays (witness Windows 8), but as much as I've tried I just can't get work done on a touch screen the way that I can with a mouse and keyboard. For media consumption and writing emails and whatnot they're great, but for anything that requires a lot of copying and pasting or visual editing (images, video, etc.), it's going to be quite a while before touch screens will suffice (and probably with the addition of a stylus). Gnome Shell is much more of a mouse/keyboard UI, and in my opinion it's a really well-designed one that makes my work flow easily instead of getting in my way.

Right now I'm running XFCE on my main system, and it's a perfectly good workhorse. But I miss Gnome a bit, and I keep checking to see when I can run Gnome Shell reliably in Debian. Maybe that time is now?

I hope that in the near future the Mint devs switch to a customized Gnome Shell release because they'd probably improve it quite a bit (and personally that's what I want to use). It is a fairly major UI change, but it's a lot more extensible than some people realize and I easily changed the things that didn't work for me and adapted it to my liking. I tried using a traditional task bar and launcher for a while, and while I had no problems with it I actually found that I liked the Gnome Shell way better once I got used to it so I removed them.

[DrHu]

A bit off-topic but I find the multitude of distros and desktop managers rather depressing. Just strikes me as making it less likely that Linux desktop gains market share. Also emphasises how Linux desktop is more of an enthusiast's OS than a commercial one.

Also emphasizes how Linux desktop is more of an enthusiast's OS..
Succinctly put, it (Linux) and the number of options available does tend to emphasize its enthusiasts' nature

Just as in the beginning of the micro revolution: S100 (original hobbyist micros), Apple, Commodore, Microsoft etc, when everyone was an enthusiast

Because Linux is not commercial, it is fairly unlikely that it would ever take market share away from commercial vendors, read Apple (now #1) and Microsoft and of course Google rapidly matching/surpassing or following..

[autocrosser]

If you look at the Gnome3 thread--about page: viewtopic.php?f=141&t=65745&start=360 and go back a couple of pages--you'll see the current best way to install Shell (look at Sam Riggs posts & mine). I realize that the thread is getting a bit long (19 pages!), so do a bit of reading--I've got "all" the taps turned on ("Expermintal", Sid & Testing plus the new Incoming sources)--only have a few things held pinned (the xorg 1.11 stuff due to nvidia drivers, plus some Python- pinned at 2.6.7-3 & Perl-pinned at 5.12.4-4) but I have not (knock on wood) had a b0rk for over 3 months now. I just keep a VERY close eye on what is going into my system & follow the Sid breakage thread---plus I was a 'buntu alpha tester for 5+ years (so I know what REAL b0rkage is )

There are many people running Shell now & it's coming along very nicely....there are LOTS of custom Shell themes & GTK3 themes--Final freeze for 3.2 is in ( http://news.gnome.org/ ), so I am expecting to see it in Experimental at the latest next month

So it's a very exciting time to be running Shell--looking better every day (and is getting a few speed increases also )...I think that Gnome3/Shell is almost ready to be used The non-dev Gnome community has stepped up with themes, mods & other good stuff to increase the options/customization of Shell...I can't wait to see what the next year holds!!!!

I'm actually coming at this with goals more like autocrosser's (so maybe you'll have some tips for me). I think that I'm ready to try Gnome Shell on my main production machine, but I want to run it on LMDE. I have a separate Fedora partition on which I've been testing and tweaking Gnome Shell to my liking, but I want a Debian system (and I really like the new updating method in LMDE).

A while back I got Gnome Shell running on Debian using the experimental repos, but it wasn't stable enough to use for work. I see now that the experimental repos have much more up-to-date Gnome 3 packages than they did then. I don't want to risk borking my main system constantly, especially since I'll be running it on an encrypted partition and that always makes repair and recovery more difficult.

I'm also psyched to try Gnome 3.2 when it comes out, but I expect that I'll need to be patient and wait for the packages to trickle into Debian again.

Right now I'm running XFCE on my main system, and it's a perfectly good workhorse. But I miss Gnome a bit, and I keep checking to see when I can run Gnome Shell reliably in Debian. Maybe that time is now?

I hope that in the near future the Mint devs switch to a customized Gnome Shell release because they'd probably improve it quite a bit (and personally that's what I want to use). It is a fairly major UI change, but it's a lot more extensible than some people realize and I easily changed the things that didn't work for me and adapted it to my liking. I tried using a traditional task bar and launcher for a while, and while I had no problems with it I actually found that I liked the Gnome Shell way better once I got used to it so I removed them.

[linuxviolin]

However, I am disappointed with the recent fragmentation in terms of desktop manager. I know it's all meant to be about choice but this fragmentation can only slow the adoption of Linux on the desktop. So much wasted time!

Don't worry. there are many of them but just some are really usable, at least if you want a complete modern desktop from the 21st century. Although with GNOME 3 and Unity the choice is more and more narrow...

Linux desktop is more of an enthusiast's OS than a commercial one.

Yes.

There are many people running Shell now

Well, there are many idiots... (sorry )

The "fallback" mode is not something for a real base for the future. Either you want using GNOME 3 and so you use the "real" GNOME 3 or you hate it and use another desktop.

[samriggs]

Well, there are many idiots... (sorry )

Really???
How about window users?
Mac users?
unity users?
etc etc etc
personal choice, some like one thing, some like others, nobodys an idiot for what they like in binary code lol
just a matter of personal choice thats all and that fact we have choices is a good thing
I hated unity (personal choice) I loved and love gnome 2 personal I also hated gnome 3 at first till I started using it and love it now also but I like themeing so I love the choices gnome 3 gives me in themeing.
Choices are a beautiful thing.
what your saying is anyone that doesn't like what I like is an idiot
should I put a laughing face here now

[autocrosser]

There are many people running Shell now

Well, there are many idiots... (sorry )

I must admit to being quite offended by your comment---I do not call you a "Idiot" & I do request you not call me one because My choice of Desktop is not fitting your sensibilities.

I had thought that civil discourse was what is requested on this forum. I have been involved with Gnome-Shell development for almost 3 years now & am fairly happy with it...Maybe you should "really" try it before making judgment.

[sackofspuds]

the number of options available does tend to emphasize its enthusiasts' nature just as in the beginning of the micro revolution: S100 (original hobbyist micros), Apple, Commodore, Microsoft etc, when everyone was an enthusiast

I guess what disappoints me is that the beginning of the micro revolution was in the 1980s. Here we are 30+ years later and we have Linux servers running a good deal of the world's web sites yet on the desktop side we have total defragmentation.

Because Linux is not commercial, it is fairly unlikely that it would ever take market share away from commercial vendors, read Apple (now #1) and Microsoft and of course Google rapidly matching/surpassing or following..

Again though, on the server side, Linux did take away massive market share from Microsoft and the Unix vendors such as Sun (now Oracle), IBM, HP, etc. Unfortunately that success in the server space wasn't able to be translated into success on the desktop.

I've read quite a few comments concerning Unity and Gnome 3 that point out they are suited to smart phones, tablets, netbooks etc. This, clearly, is the next OS battle ground but Apple and Google have made huge inroads into it already so I'm tempted to think that this space has already been pretty much carved up.

[linuxviolin]

I must admit to being quite offended by your comment---I do not call you a "Idiot" & I do request you not call me one because My choice of Desktop is not fitting your sensibilities.

I had thought that civil discourse was what is requested on this forum. I have been involved with Gnome-Shell development for almost 3 years now & am fairly happy with it...Maybe you should "really" try it before making judgment.

autocrosser, samriggs too, even if this is my opinion or not, I wrote that sentence as a little joke, as shown by the smileys used. Sorry if this was not clear enough.

And to answer you, I have tried it and I'm sorry but I can't like it. Idem for Unity, although it can be better, maybe.

And about "civil discourse", yes, OK. But what about the truth for instance? So, even if you don't like or if you find something or somebody "idiot", "stupid", "cr**"... or other, you can't say it because "civil discourse"? So it's worse than in politics for example, especially do not say, do not shock, do not say what you really think... Hmm, seems somewhat hypocritical... Dr House, where are you?

Oh and yes, I'm probably also idiot.

[autocrosser]

Valid points---I can agree that those thoughts pass my mind, but I tend to keep them to myself & not put them in black/white.....There is far more strife in this world without adding to it.

I left Ubuntu due to "Unity"--I had got involved with Gnome Shell in Oct 2008 & felt it was a better choice. I can say that I heard the same noises when Gnome made the switch from 1.x to 2.x--In about a year or so all the dust will settle & then let's see where we really are.

In my 30+ years working with computers I've see lots of things come & go........

[al1]

It seems some people still think gnome 3 is gnome-shell only but it isn't that. Gnome 3 is one thing and then you can use it with gnome-shell (like Fedora) or with Unity (like Ubuntu 11.10). Debian Wheezy has not gnome-shell yet but gnome 3 is already here. It is normal you see Gnome 3.0.2 without gnome-shell and it isn't related to the fallback mode.

[samriggs]

The only real problem I seen yet on gnome 3 is navigating, much like unity (although I found unity a heck of a lot worst), who wants to go through click after click to get where they want to get going, where in gnome 2 or other versions, you put a link on the desktop and bam your there in one click.
That's pretty much the only issue I have with it.
My solution to this, cairo docky, or thos who perfer it, avant dock. add what you want and one click bam your there again, the only thing is, now your desktop is nice and clean also when you minimize something it can be clicked on the dock also instead of going into activities.
you can also add links to the panel as well.
My wife was hesitant about gnome 3 as well and loved gnome 2 but after installing fedora on hers, she loves it also now and refuses to go back, I can't even get her mint anymore until it comes out with the full version in gnome 3 that can updated like normal.
So it converted two of us by just giving it a test run for a month or two, I'm sure there will be complaints there always is, but then there's choices
gnome isn't the only thing out there if someone doesn't want it.
@linuxviolin
I know you meant it as a sarcastic joke, but calling someone an idiot (even as a joke) is one of those words that drives me nuts, no one is an idiot.
you can say it (as long as it's allowed in the forum) but expect a response.
I could say more but enough of this nonsense.
For all those who don't want to make the big leap to gnome 3 when it takes over eventually just keep the old system with gnome 2, as long as nothing needs updating to work, it's all good

[monkeyboy]

autocrosser, samriggs too, even if this is my opinion or not, I wrote that sentence as a little joke, as shown by the smileys used. Sorry if this was not clear enough.

If you repeatedly get called on something ,like insulting people then it becomes an obvious and conscious choice and trying to hide behind the excuse of its a joke doesn’t cut it. Those emoticons just aren’t that big.

And about "civil discourse", yes, OK. But what about the truth for instance? So, even if you don't like or if you find something or somebody "idiot", "stupid", "cr**"... or other, you can't say it because "civil discourse"? So it's worse than in politics for example, especially do not say, do not shock, do not say what you really think... Hmm, seems somewhat hypocritical... Dr House, where are you?

So, if I am convinced you are a troll then its alright to call you one? I can ignore "civil discourse" and go with my opinion. Does it mean you won't go and whine to the mods about it or launch a whining rant about being called a troll? If so I support of your decision to ignore "civil discourse".

Oh and yes, I'm probably also idiot. [/quote]

No, you are intelligent enough to make conscious choices and should be willing accept the results.

[linuxviolin]

I didn't think a simple little sentence written as a little joke at first would be so commented by some, although I could think so for some... This is relatively comical.

If you repeatedly get called on something ,like insulting people then it becomes an obvious and conscious choice and trying to hide behind the excuse of its a joke doesn’t cut it. Those emoticons just aren’t that big.

Insulting? No. Like already said, this was not an insult and if you re-read it I talked about nobody here, and I have named nobody, I guess. If someone thinks this was towards him/her, well, it's his/her problem, not mine, because then it's just an illusion and in his/her head. So, maybe he should learn to read for instance or/and know that everything is not directed to him/her...

So, if I am convinced you are a troll then its alright to call you one? I can ignore "civil discourse" and go with my opinion. Does it mean you won't go and whine to the mods about it or launch a whining rant about being called a troll? If so I support of your decision to ignore "civil discourse".

A troll? I have already said what I think of this word, I don't repeat myself here, but if you want calling me "a troll", well, if you can be happy with, personally I don't care and yes, I "won't go and whine to the mods about it"

No, you are intelligent enough to make conscious choices and should be willing accept the results.

I have no problem with "the results". It's rather the others who seem have some problem sometimes... Specially when they think to be more or less "concerned" by something when it's not the case... This could just be almost comical.

Really, it is surprising as some people find interesting to comment about a simple sentence, even if they not concerned, but if they are happy with this, good for them. But maybe it should be possible and better to talk about more serious things...

As some people seem happy to comment when one dares to say something that seems unpleasant, even if it's in their heads, here's a little comment to offer some food for them:

no one is an idiot

You think really this? Yet, I can say I know and I met some, if not many, of them...

Enjoy!