LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby mushotoka on Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:15 am

Please allow me to express my grief. This is not meant as an insult to anyone.

It is difficult to deal with the inevitable death of Gnome 2. A most emotional crisis. We want to strike out at all who cause us such pain.

Why is there not room for both Gnome 2 and Gnome 3 development? Limited resources? Or forced retirement by idealistic youngsters?

Events such as these make our enemies stronger and demean our users. Is this perhaps the work of spies?

I hang my head in shame and hope for yesterday. A fool who owes a lot to so few.
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby autocrosser on Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:22 am

Interesting that I heard much the same about the change from the original Gnome to Gnome2....I find that I'm also in the same position as I was back then....testing the new & no looking back. And for interest sake, there is "fallback" Gnome, which looks very much like Gnome2---but uses the new Libraries from Gnome3....So as soon as Gnome3 settles down you will not notice very much difference from what you already use.
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby samriggs on Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:45 am

mushotoka wrote:Please allow me to express my grief. This is not meant as an insult to anyone.

It is difficult to deal with the inevitable death of Gnome 2. A most emotional crisis. We want to strike out at all who cause us such pain.

Why is there not room for both Gnome 2 and Gnome 3 development? Limited resources? Or forced retirement by idealistic youngsters?

Events such as these make our enemies stronger and demean our users. Is this perhaps the work of spies?

I hang my head in shame and hope for yesterday. A fool who owes a lot to so few.


Thanks for your comment and to tell the truth at first I felt the same way until I tried it out for a while, and now I like it, but I understand what you mean, I have to convert two more people that use gnome 2 that I have to update and love the old way, one thing I like now with gnome 3 is I don't have a messy desktop any more :D it killed my laziness for that and made me more organized. the fact that gnome 2 just had a drop down menu and bam you were there was gone, until someone made an extension that brought it back so that part is the same as gnome 2 now, personally I use a dock which allows me to zip through what I want to get to, so far as navigating goes, it now is as easy as gnome 2, and more extensions will be made to make things even better as time goes by.
The reason they cannot have both and why gnome 2 will become obsolete in the very near future is because there were issues with the coding, a lot of bugs, (if you ever made a theme in gtk2 you would of noticed some of them) gnome 3 uses css instead which makes it a lot simpler (once you get used to it for those who aren't) and it's cleaner, because of this it is completely different from the gtk2 coding (just try and match a gtk2 theme with a gtk3 and you would know what I mean) So eventually all programs will make there way over to gtk3 and gnome 3 and gtk2 and gnome 2 will become a thing of the pass, it would be too much to try and run two different ways of coding at once (as it is now) and way to messy and would only lead to more bugs then there was in the beginning, for themers right now it's a bit of a nightmare because of this issue as it is I take it for programmers making software.
It is a big change but it is a neater and cleaner way of coding things in the end. If you don't like the activites sections well you can set it up so you would never have to see it also and just run your system like a normal gnome 2 desktop with some added bonuses.
For themers, they are adding some new toys in gtk3 and gnome 3.2 for us to play with and one thing I do know is they are adding border-image to gtk3 now :D
I'm still begging for opacity, background-image repeat and non-repeat and more images to be allowed in the gtk3, they also have about 5 other things I can't remember right now that they are adding for us to play :D
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby linuxviolin on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:01 pm

samriggs wrote:until someone made an extension

It is a such cr** than people must create extensions for it be somewhat usable... Great progress. :twisted:

samriggs wrote:gnome 2 will become obsolete in the very near future (...) gnome 2 will become a thing of the pass

Well, this is already the case. GNOME 2 is dead, it IS a thing of the past. Period.

samriggs wrote:there were issues with the coding, a lot of bugs,

Yes but it should be possible to correct them... if the GNOME developers made correctly their work. :roll: Btw, you'll have the same thing with GNOME 3...
Last edited by proxima_centauri on Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited for language
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby samriggs on Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:06 pm

The world is round

Just seeing if he has something to add about this lol
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby craig10x on Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:07 am

He will probably say...no it's really square :lol:
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby autocrosser on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:28 am

No----really it's--------PURPLE :lol:
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby autocrosser on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:34 am

linuxviolin wrote:
samriggs wrote:until someone made an extension

It is a such cr** than people must create extensions for it be somewhat usable... Great progress. :twisted:


Funny that you would say that because most of what you like about Gnome2 was at first a "hack"...Early Gnome2 was more barren to start with--made the first release of Gnome3 look finished by comparison.

linuxviolin wrote:
samriggs wrote:gnome 2 will become obsolete in the very near future (...) gnome 2 will become a thing of the pass

Well, this is already the case. GNOME 2 is dead, it IS a thing of the past. Period.


Good riddance...The Gnome3 code base is much cleaner.

linuxviolin wrote:
samriggs wrote:there were issues with the coding, a lot of bugs,

Yes but it should be possible to correct them... if the GNOME developers made correctly their work. :roll: Btw, you'll have the same thing with GNOME 3...


I've talked to quite a few developers about this & it was FAR easier to learn from the past & start fresh with a accepted standard---CSS is easy to understand...try reading the documentation for GTK2 sometime.
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby samriggs on Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:59 pm

I agree autocrosser, it took me a few weeks to get gtk2 down to a point that I could actually use it to make a theme, metacity about 2 days, if tha,t because it uses standard xml,(the only issue was figuring out how it tiled images) it took me one day to learn gtk3 for the most part because it uses css another standard that anyone who ever made web pages already should know, all I had to figure out was what part of the css did what, which was easy enough to figure out.
Another good thing is extensions can be easily made using javascript instead of trying to make add ons using python or C or C++ or some other language.
Allowing extensions is also good because your not stuck with what they give you, you can actually add what you want or change things with a web based standard programming language that can be learnt in 24 hours for most folks.
Actually the only thing I can see to complain about (for me, I'm sure there are others that can find more) is navigating through activities which you also don't have to do any more, actually you never have to see it if you simply use a drop down menu or a dock or both. This was my biggest complaint at first until I found out I can still navigate the old way which I am used to and like.
For programmers who made software, using css for the gtk is going to be a lot easier then gtk2 and should be a lot quicker to get newer versions out to be compatible.
Are there going to be bugs? Of course, almost all new things have bugs, that's why they have bug reports so they can be fixed, this is something that is almost impossible to avoid with anything that is programmed. For those that complain about bugs, I only have a word of advice, either take up programming and become better then the ones you complain about or be patient and thankful for something you never had to pay for.
If you think you can do better please do it and give it away for free like everyone you complain about.
Do you have advice on how to improve something, please talk to the makers of what you think needs improving, they do it on their own time and if they like the idea they will try and do it if it is possible, or if they want to.
If they don't, again take up programming and take their open source code and make a new version of it and open up five emails for the complaints that will come your way :lol:

And the world is round but it's flat like a pizza pie :lol:
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby linuxviolin on Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:19 pm

autocrosser wrote:I've talked to quite a few developers about this & it was FAR easier to learn from the past & start fresh with a accepted standard---CSS is easy to understand...try reading the documentation for GTK2 sometime.

Well, from the beginning their policy is stupid. They develop a version and when it is out they stop to maintain it to play with their new toy, the next version, without never correct the bugs (e.g. there are some old gedit or other bugs which have never been corrected version after version) and/or make some maintenance job. Really, this is just stupid. I'm sorry.

Wait some times, and we'll probably see the same things in GNOME 3 and then they will explain us GNOME 4 is "cleaner" etc...

Btw, I have no real faith in the developers.

samriggs wrote:Another good thing is extensions

No, extensions is not a good thing. And even, we should not need them.
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby zerozero on Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:04 pm

no, linuxviolin, i'm sorry, but it's not because you repeat something to exhaustion that it becomes true :lol: extensions are not a bad thing in the same way the applets were not, and if you don't accept one concept you can't accept the other - they are basically the same rationale, done differently because the underlying technologies are also different.
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby samriggs on Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:13 am

Btw, I have no real faith in the developers.


So no matter what they do it won't be what you want unless specified by you I guess.
Oh well can't please everyone.
One thing I learnt is nothing is perfect, the other part I learnt, don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Gnome also welcomes programmers, which opens the door for you LinuxViolin.
I hear you complain a lot but do nothing but complain how much it's all wrong and how everything is not what you like it to be.
Since I came to linux I do hear this from the few, complaining about something they never had to pay for and are rarely thankful for it even if it's not exactly what they want (but then what is), one thing I never hear from the complainers though is "I will join the programming team and help make it better"
C is really not hard to learn, I have three things I would like added for themeing myself to make it better, will I get them? who knows? I did leave suggestions to what I would like and the reasons for them, but then it's up to the programmers themselves if they can do it and if they want to. I am not willing to get involved in the programming of gnome myself because I have other things that take up too much time, so I really don't complain about it because I know if I did get involved I would go nuts coding to add those parts I want which I know would benefit it, so unless I am willing to add these parts myself I can only hope but it's not my project and my involvement only goes as far as themeing.
But as far as having gnome I am very thankful for the programmers that put it together as they sacrificed a lot of time to make this project free for everyone to use.
All those people who cannot afford windows updates and upgrades don't have to worry because they can use linux, all those who can but prefer this OS are thankful for the most part but to constantly complain about something that is freely given and do nothing about it to make it better that's another story.
Besides this linux offers xfce if you don't want gnome, there is unity (not my fav but hey a lot of folks like it) choices are included in attempt to make others happy, probably from those who didn't like one method and made another choice (good for them).
Is anything perfect and bug free? not in this world, but it's nice to see a lot of folks trying to make something for free for themselves and also for others to use, again at no cost to them.
So for all the developers out there, THANK YOU!
There are two other choices also if you hate linux so much (but you will have to pay for them), if it's just gnome you despise then again you have choices.
If you want to still use gnome and have some time, please feel free to join the gnome team and swat all those bugs you hate out of existence you'll make the thankful even more thankful :D
The reason extensions are a good thing is because it opens the door for other things to be added (like drop menus for one) that gnome 3 didn't have, which lets us navigate as usual, it opened the door for a theme viewer, also to place themes in the .theme folder also to change the power, suspend, hibernate buttons and a lot more things which were not there, some folks like some things added where some folks don't want certain things added, this again gives us another choice how we want to set up our desktops, so yes it is a good thing when we have more choices, other wise were stuck with what they give us only, I think allowing extensions to be added was by far one of the best things they did, and allowing it to be programmed in a web based language is even better, just think of all those web developers who have some cool toys to be added because of this.
Choices in an OS is always a good thing :D
Just wait until html5 gets is allowed to the degree web based is, there doing some really great things with it now.
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby linuxviolin on Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:18 pm

samriggs wrote:So no matter what they do it won't be what you want unless specified by you I guess.
Oh well can't please everyone.

No. I have seen what developers have done with some/many projects, apps, desktops... I have read posts and articles by developers, even talked with sometimes, I have seen their tone and attitude towards people/users etc etc So, after all of that, I can say I have no (real) faith in them. Sorry for that. But it's me, my opinion. ;-)
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby samriggs on Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:26 pm

That's why I suggested joining the team if you have time :D
Some great software has been made by folks not happy with the current one and took it and made it better.
Look at all the linux versions for example.
You can do all the things you don't like what is happening and hopefully make a change.
You could then change your name from linuxviolin to linuxcreator :D
Just one question for you, have you ever developed anything yourself?
lol have a good day linuxviolin
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby linuxviolin on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:00 pm

samriggs wrote:That's why I suggested joining the team if you have time :D
Some great software has been made by folks not happy with the current one and took it and made it better.
Look at all the linux versions for example.
You can do all the things you don't like what is happening and hopefully make a change.
You could then change your name from linuxviolin to linuxcreator :D

A long time ago now, I have almost helped some team, yes. Not a very good experience... Also I don't like the mentality of many developers etc and other things too. I should rather create my own distro maybe but unfortunately I have no time for that and I fear my goals can not be obtained in the Linux world (See some of my many posts in this forum if you really want for more) Plus, I am not sure to be able to do this. :D

Have a good day samriggs...
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby samriggs on Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:35 pm

I hear you on developers, I had issues when learning how to program myself, a lot of them have the superior attitude that drives me nuts and put noobs down and refuse to help at the same time, there are a lot of good ones out there, I've dealt with them in the past but then you got the other ones, I guess there is good and bad in everything.
I was thinking last night about trying to fork gnome 3 to get rid of activities altogether but not sure how to go about it myself, it's been way to long for me since I programmed that much, activities is great for designing purposes because it gives us more to play with in designing stuff, but how many really use it is another question, me personally I use a dock and a menu and that's it, although I admit I love designing for the activities part, for me it is pretty much useless, although I do like the other parts of gnome 3.
Looks like Clem is keeping gnome 2 going and using a forked version called MATE by what I read in the blog, so that is good for anyone wanting to keep it.
Just for your reading pleasure though I thought you would love this blog about gnome 3 and how the father of linux (Linus Torvalds) hates it and unity it can be read HERE
Have a great day :D
Sam
EDIT: for those interested in the MATE gnome 2 fork you can read about it HERE also fedora is forking there own gnome 2 environment so it looks like gnome 3 and unity will have more competition after all which is also good for making better software, if enough switch back you know what what that will mean for gnome 3 and unity.
For me what I would love to see is keep the gnome 3 css stuff and a lot of toys they added, it does run smoother, and easier to theme now, plus I do like extensions, any add ons are good for me that I can pick and choose which ones I want, but allow the desktop to be the way it was in gnome 2 (where I can add my files and shortcuts on the desktop) and get rid of activities since all this is pretty much useless if you use a menu and or a dock (yes even though it looks cool when you theme for it), it still is useless for me, I thought it was cool at first but I haven't used it in so long that I forgot how it looked liked with my own theme :lol:
Wish I knew more about this stuff I would fork the heck out it and make my own version but which have a bit of both gnome 2 and 3 mixed together.
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby Lippy on Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:47 pm

I've given Gnome 3 a spin myself by pulling it from the Sid repos. After using vanilla Gnome Shell for a week, I can say it's nowhere near as bad as what some people think. It took me a day or two in order to fully adjust to the new concepts and it's grown on me. I don't miss the old panels at all. To be honest, before I installed Gnome 3 on here, I was using Xfce because I was pretty sure that I wouldn't like the Shell. I was ready to revert back if I didn't like it, but it's turned out not to be the case. My initial impression is that it's very barebones, but it's remarkably polished for an initial release. I think it has great potential. :)

Anyway, the vanilla Gnome Shell seems to be like Marmite. People either love it or hate it. However, I think extensions will fix this. It should still be possible to make it look closer to the Gnome 2 interface for those that want it. I think the only real problem is that the Shell requires enough graphical power and working drivers in order to run it. For those who lack those prerequisites, it looks like their only choice is to use an alternative desktop environment. I can't see Fallback Mode ever being a serious option and there is a good chance that it won't be around for much longer either.

I think the main cause of the uproar with Gnome 3 is simply because it is still in the transition phase. Once it matures and has the extensions to tweak it to anyone's liking, I think people will settle down again. To sum it up, if you like the vanilla Shell, great! It can only get better. If you don't, I'd wait a little longer and it should later become much more usable with extensions.

This has ended up teaching me a lesson. I was ready to join the Gnome 3 hate club by judging it based on the screenshots. However, by giving it a try, I've ended up in the crowd who likes the Shell instead. I actually find it more efficient to use than the old panels and I don't think I'd be able to go back now. This leaves me with a problem; I installed the wrong edition of LMDE! :lol:
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Re: LMDE,Gnome 3 and other distros

Postby craig10x on Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:24 pm

I couldn't agree more...actually, i have been running with ubuntu 11.10 for a while now and i even like unity...like you, i didn't think i would like the "shell concept" because of all the negative things people were saying but it quickly grew on me and now i love it!...I haven't tried the gnome 3 shell version but since it's similar to unity, i am sure i'd like that too...also right now, gnome 3 shell version is more flexible with all the extensions coming in...I'm sure even unity will also become more flexible in the near future...both are young...and there is plenty of room for them to grow... :)
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