LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby gotjazz on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:25 pm

ah don't be so strict - as long as noone is posting screenshots :mrgreen:
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby NCCarlos on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:44 pm

oscar799 wrote:meandean,
That is too much information - we'd rather not know
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oscar, if this is the meandean from debian user forums - and, really, why would anyone impersonate him - he's quite the joker.

@meandean: the truth comes out in jest, doesn't it? :mrgreen:
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby meandean on Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:54 pm

NCCarlos wrote:@meandean: the truth comes out in jest, doesn't it? :mrgreen:

what jest :shock:
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby fluxlizard on Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:03 pm

well, I've been using linux since about 2001. I'm a user, not a super geek.

with lmde I

-am still a little hazy about how to properly update even though I have read how on the forums. No how to was included with the distro- if not for the forums I would not even be able to keep it up to date correctly because it is not as simple as clicking the icon or updating in synaptic.

-still cannot play a dvd. I have tried the suggestions I found in a thread here on the forums. No luck. Can't get it to read my dvd.

-have sound problems- sound server will only work for one app at a time.

-don't want to try and tackle getting compiz to work.

-had to read here on the forums to get my nividia drivers installed. Not a huge biggie, but many distros these days have simple installers for this.

I was very excited and used it for a couple of days because of speed. Love the speed of lmde.

But had to take a break because of these other issues the past couple of days and use normal mint.

These simple problems indicate that for me at least, it isn't "RUBISH" or "piffle" to call it a non-beginners distro.

It could be if these were fixed out of the box.

But normal users will be very turned off by these problems.

Even a long time linux user like me will have their enthusiasm tested by problems like these.

In spite of the problems- love the easy install and polished look- very nice and the speed is incredible. So I'll tinker until I get the box fixed.
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby meandean on Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:15 pm

-am still a little hazy about how to properly update even though I have read how on the forums. No how to was included with the distro- if not for the forums I would not even be able to keep it up to date correctly because it is not as simple as clicking the icon or updating in synaptic.

I update the same way I update my debian squeeze install. Seems to work...

-still cannot play a dvd. I have tried the suggestions I found in a thread here on the forums. No luck. Can't get it to read my dvd.

no problems here

-have sound problems- sound server will only work for one app at a time.

can play as many sounds as I like

-don't want to try and tackle getting compiz to work.

good

-had to read here on the forums to get my nividia drivers installed. Not a huge biggie, but many distros these days have simple installers for this.

apt-get install nvidia...stuff is all I do

I was very excited and used it for a couple of days because of speed. Love the speed of lmde.

mine was so fast I had trouble catching it

These simple problems indicate that for me at least, it isn't "RUBISH" or "piffle" to call it a non-beginners distro.

depends on the beginner

But normal users will be very turned off by these problems.

what is a 'normal' user?

Even a long time linux user like me will have their enthusiasm tested by problems like these.

not this one...

In spite of the problems

cant say I have a single problem
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby tdockery97 on Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:24 pm

I had read posts about sound not working in more than one app at once. I just noticed while I was on Pokerstars and watching a Youtube video (about lmde) at the same time I got sound from both...don't know why but it just works. :P
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby FewClues on Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:28 pm

fluxlizard wrote:well, I've been using linux since about 2001. I'm a user, not a super geek.

with lmde I

-am still a little hazy about how to properly update even though I have read how on the forums. No how to was included with the distro- if not for the forums I would not even be able to keep it up to date correctly because it is not as simple as clicking the icon or updating in synaptic.
.


I will join you in this is not a distro for a beginner. I have been a Linux user since 2001 and am used to having to mess with a couple of things to get it my way. But after moving to Ubuntu the messing stopped - with the exception of having to go load "Ubuntu-restricted-drivers" and download the two Broadcom drivers. As soon as Mint came out I sold out. I moved my LUG 100% to mint - 82 senior citizens not having any trouble with Mint at all. I have had five folks give LMDE a shot and ... they hate it.

Download and burn the ISO and install. The install is not nearly as friendly. Setting up the partitions was a problem for most. Then getting the OS spun up everyone INCLUDING ME crashed trying to install the wireless drivers. Plug in the Ethernet and .. its time to upgrade.. OK... 300+ programs. OK... it took 20 minutes to download the ISO and 4.5 hours to download the upgrades. NOW THAT SUCKS!! 53 KB download???? Are they using a commodore pet for their server?

I will continue to be a huge fan of the stuff Clem and crew do - - with this one exception. I will continue to support financially because its obvious they're short handed. And in the meantime I'll keep my LUG out of LMDE!
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby gotjazz on Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:46 pm

fluxlizard wrote:-have sound problems- sound server will only work for one app at a time.


viewtopic.php?f=141&t=55381#p318668
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby ukbrian on Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:54 pm

Sorry to hear about your problems. I would suggest you start a new Topic listing your hardware, sound driver etc
if possible and the apps you are having trouble with. The more info you can give the better.

The problems you had with nividia was because the installer isn't quite finished yet I think but
I would say it is already the best installer I have used and I've tried a lot of distros.

Regarding
But normal users will be very turned off by these problems.

A normal user buys a box with an OS already installed, do most drivers service or build their cars,
If you're installing your own OS then you sir, are not a normal user.

Normal users given a machine with LMDE installed on it will have a much better experience with no virus problems etc,
compared to someone who gets a machine with Windows installed on it that last but a few months before they start having serious problems.
that they have to pay someone like you to fix.

I install OS's on machines for folk that have Teamviewer and Skype installed and set up so they only have to click a button and I can remotely show them how to do anything on the monitor in front of them, this method works extremely well with children who tend to move on from the Facebook, Messenger phase a lot quicker.

Good luck with your problems, I to would be lost without the help I have received on this amazingly friendly forum.
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PS there is a Tutorials/Howtos thread at http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewforum.php?f=42 but I think most are about the Ubuntu based distros
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby jesica on Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:55 am

Well LMDE is very cool and nice

but if you have no experiene and want to work in the terminals and setup a server and work with clusters and so on, then Ubuntu might be easier and I also reckon their is more help on Google then

but yes, anyone will found LMDE friendly and easy to use in the GUI
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby fluxlizard on Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:20 am

Don't get me wrong- I really like the debian base and the distro.

But compared to normal mint where things just work- it has a long way to go. I would use normal mint as the standard for a beginner distro.

As for nvidia installer- I didn't even find one. I followed directions here on the forums that told me to install a couple of packages one at a time, then several more, then uninstall a couple of packages, then reboot. It worked. But compared to normal mint (my definition of a true beginners distro) this was way more complicated and without actually taking the time to read the forums and carefully follow step by step directions, I would have never been able to figure out how to install nvidia.

I guess for me that is what makes a beginner's distro- most things on a box can be figured out and most things are automatic and have a gui. From my reading of these forums- you can't even update lmde from the gui- you must use the terminal. My little update notification shield in the tray isn't working either- it always says I'm up to date until I click on it and open it, and then I have updates.

Doesn't mean I don't like the distro and I won't continue to use it- I will. Like I said I love the speed and I like the mint look that has been transferred. I've been curious about debian for a long time but never made a successful install (debian and gentoo- I've installed the other popular and many not so popular distros). But I won't be transferring "normal" users to this one- I'll stick with normal mint and keep the tweaking away from them because I know 90% of normal users will be turned off to linux by this one until more stuff works properly and automatically (like my elderly parents, or my friends whose computers I have built and installed linux on).

thanks for the links by the way. Will definately check them out. And thank you for the distro- I'm not arguing against the distro, just the premise that it is a good one for beginners as it stands. I plan to enjoy the distro for myself for a long time to come.
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby meandean on Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:11 pm

As for nvidia installer...... I would have never been able to figure out how to install nvidia.

If you had never been spoiled with a GUI and knew how to install nvidia drivers then you would not have had any problem. Are you sure those GUI programs that do things for you are a good thing?

I guess for me that is what makes a beginner's distro- most things on a box can be figured out and most things are automatic and have a gui.

That would be a excellent beginner distro for beginners that want to stay ignorant about their system. It seems to me that allowing someone to remain ignorant kind of goes against the ideals of a free/open system as a free/open system can actually be completely understood.

From my reading of these forums- you can't even update lmde from the gui- you must use the terminal.

thats a good thing :wink: A user should be active in updating and be encouraged to examine updates and be sure they are something they want rather than just blindly installing them.

But I won't be transferring "normal" users to this one- I'll stick with normal mint and keep the tweaking away from them because I know 90% of normal users will be turned off to linux by this one ....

I think I would prefer the 10% that is attracted by the ideas of understanding and being able to tweak everything. I think they are the 'right' people to attract.
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby DrHu on Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:16 pm

MALsPa wrote:Is everybody here ignoring what Clem said in the Linux Mint Blog post? "For this reason, LMDE requires a deeper knowledge and experience with Linux, dpkg and APT." If the guy behind it all say that it requires experience, it seems reasonable to pay attention to what he's saying, doesn't it?

No, because he is addressing his market, which he is likely to know more about than most of us that are not in-the-loop
--so his viewpoint reflects that bias: he wants to make sure that anything he says about the Mint distribution(s) versions can be considered reliable; so giving a friendly warning about the Debian based version in-line with that, even if it is also just as likely that Lmde will hardly ever be a cause of any problem for most users

Perhaps he is concerned about the terminology and the difference; that Lmde is a rolling release and that the Ubuntu based versions are essentially new releases every 6 months or so..

And again, despite his greater background in the matter, it is still only one opinion after all: could be not even the other developers in-the-loop would agree
--and we don't need to know the score one way or the other to decide for ourselves..
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby DrHu on Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:25 pm

ukbrian wrote:Sorry for the shouting but it makes me angry when folk say such things.
I've seen some post on the forum that state one way or another that LMDE is not for novices, you need some Linux experience.

I have to agree with ukbrian
--it is abundant nonsense and piffle for sure: to say, that almost any Linux distribution in use today, is beyond the comprehension of the common dunderhead..
    It so obviously is not, despite the mania of questions that daily appear !

Pick any Linux distribution extant today, become somewhat familiar with it, just as you have to do with Windows or Apple's OS's, and either find a trouble-free experience or some problems that you have to discover how to resolve
    No OS is perfect, nor should it claim to be !
    --despite any advertising agenda to the opposite

If you want an OS that can be considered not great (good) for beginners, try OpenBSD; since, in that case you do need knowledge about the normal UNIX operations to get through it..
--Linux has that battle won hands down
    By that, I, of course mean, only in its ease of installation and use..
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby fluxlizard on Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:46 pm

If you had never been spoiled with a GUI and knew how to install nvidia drivers then you would not have had any problem. Are you sure those GUI programs that do things for you are a good thing?


Well, actually I could have downloaded and installed the nvidia installer from nvidia's site.
I started on redhat 7 or 8 (forgotten) and used stock nvidia drivers foryears.

But if I did that, x would break and I'd have to mess with the nvidia driver when kernals are updated down the road. When appropriate solutions are to be found in a distro's official repos, I tend to want to go with that distro's "official" solution.

That would be a excellent beginner distro for beginners that want to stay ignorant about their system. It seems to me that allowing someone to remain ignorant kind of goes against the ideals of a free/open system as a free/open system can actually be completely understood.


Well, most users want to be ignorant of the system.

It's a reasonable desire- most want a tool they can use and they want it to save time, not a time-consuming do it yourself project.

You don't have to be a mechanic who fixes cars or engineer who builds cars to drive a car, yet cars are still useful for many millions of non-mechanics.

How many people who have been using linux for years I wonder completely understand the whole of the linux operating system? I dare say not many, especially when specialty problems dealing with sound and video and the like come up. Oh sure, many know the basic parts and file structure.

A user should be active in updating and be encouraged to examine updates and be sure they are something they want rather than just blindly installing them.


Really? So you don't blindly install most of your updates? You look at all 300+ on the fresh lmde install and carefully examine each to be certain you really want each update? You actually worry about how each update you include or omit might break or be needed by something else?

I don't have that kind of time, and it is ludicrous on a modern operating system that contains many thousands of packages to not be able to expect automatic updates that are intelligently and safely applied...

I think I would prefer the 10% that is attracted by the ideas of understanding and being able to tweak everything. I think they are the 'right' people to attract.


Well, I am not talking about who the target audience to attract should be.
That would be up to the distro's creators.

I am very interested and attracted to LMDE for one.

But the topic is whether LMDE is a good beginners distro. I think most would define a beginner's distro as easy to install and easy to maintain.

Your definition seems to be a distro that forces a beginner to learn linux inside and out.

If you want to learn linux inside and out, sure a beginner could pick any number of distros and learn it.
That's not my definition of a beginners distro though.

By your definition, I'd argue gentoo or linux from scratch would be much better for beginners...
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby meandean on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:04 pm

You don't have to be a mechanic who fixes cars or engineer who builds cars to drive a car, yet cars are still useful for many millions of non-mechanics.

But you still have to learn the basics....and even better if you know how to check the oil, change a tire, and so forth...

How many people who have been using linux for years I wonder completely understand the whole of the linux operating system? I dare say not many, especially when specialty problems dealing with sound and video and the like come up. Oh sure, many know the basic parts and file structure.

the whole...none....
how many know how to get the info they need about the whole....many...
how many know enough to troubleshoot and learn....many....


Really? So you don't blindly install most of your updates? You look at all 200+ on the fresh lmde install and carefully examine each to be certain you really want each update?

Carefully examine....nah....look at them....OH YEA...especially when I am using a distro that has constant updates and changes...

I don't have that kind of time, and it is ludicrous on a modern operating system that contains many thousands of packages to not be able to expect automatic updates that are intelligently and safely applied...

Uhm...well....for those that are using a stable OS and only applying security updates then I agree but that isn't what we are talking about. Now if you are saying that a constantly evolving system is not a good choice for a beginner then we are right back to defining what type of beginner we are talking about. If you mean aunt martha then I probably agree with you. But then again, if I set it up and take care of it for her then she has nothing to worry about anyway.


That's not my definition of a beginners distro though.

So what is your idea of a beginner automobile....a taxi? :lol:
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby fluxlizard on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:14 pm

So what is your idea of a beginner automobile....a taxi? :lol:


LOL nice one :lol:

My definition though- one that doesn't require constant maintenance that the user can turn on and drive where he wants to go because it "just works" without first finding the right brand of starter, a compatible battery for the starter, rewiring the engine, and pulling out and putting in a random part here and there because it doesn't work for him until he does so. Of course regular simple maintenance by pumping in a little gas and changing the oil is necessary. And you want a car that isn't going to break down and need repairs every week or so for a new driver. But handing someone who has never looked under the hood a car that can't drive until they repair a few problems is a good learning experience, but if the car is wanted to get to work the next day, not a good thing for a beginning auto enthusiest.

Basically any car that "just works" without repairs on purchase I would classify as a beginners automobile.

I think a taxi for a beginner would be more like having a system admin on hand for a beginner or even a secretary or personal assistant who uses linux to get done what you, the boss who pays them, wants to accomplish.
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby meandean on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:19 pm

fluxlizard wrote:Basically any car that "just works" without repairs on purchase I would classify as a beginners automobile.

strange that they offer classes that teach the basics of driving to beginners....shouldn't it be easy enough that they just get in and go....just like a beginner linux distro :wink:
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby fluxlizard on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:23 pm

strange that they offer classes that teach the basics of driving to beginners....shouldn't it be easy enough that they just get in and go....just like a beginner linux distro :wink:


The classes aren't for operation so much as for obeying the law.

Years ago my preschool cousins drove the pickup truck for my uncle who stood in the back and tossed hay out to the sheep. One stepped on the brake when they needed to stop, the other steered. They were too short for either to do both at the same time. I learned to drive stick when someone dropped me off in the middle of nowhere and asked me to drive their pickup home because they needed to drive another home. Driving is simple and anyone with reasonable intelligence who has ever seen one in operation can get in and drive a vehicle.

Obedience to the traffic law is another topic.
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Re: LMDE is not a beginners distro RUBISH, absolute piffle

Postby meandean on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:36 pm

fluxlizard wrote: Driving is simple and anyone with reasonable intelligence who has ever seen one in operation can get in and drive a vehicle.

Using software is simple and anyone with reasonable intelligence who has ever seen the software in operation can use it.

installing, updating, administrating is another matter...

some can easily drive a stick shift and some can easily deal with a package problem....others fall to pieces regarding either one...
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