My initial observations of LMDE

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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby azathoth on Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:55 pm

@OP
Clem DID say at the release of LMDE that it wasn't going to be as "user friendly" as their mainstream editions.
Mint has many ootb editions available which are likely much better suited to many users.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby k3lt01 on Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:49 pm

omns wrote:
k3lt01 wrote:Sooooo, if you don't mind I would appreciate it IF you would now keep to the point of this thread which is "My initial observations of LMDE". Thank you.

^ Yes of course, I don't mind at all. If vigorous discussion is not the intention of this thread then I apologise and am happy to move on as per your (the op's) request. In regard to LMDE your observations are interesting, well thought out and thought provoking. Thank you for sharing them with the community.
Vigorous discussion about LMDE is the intention, bashing an old OS distributed by another manufacturer is not. I find other OS bashing really boring and I have moved away from other communities because it is something I am seeing more and more of. I am here using LMDE because it is not a fork of a fork, I find it interesting people here in Mint bash Ubuntu when regular Mint is a fork of it.

If you feel so inclined please join me in vigorous discussion about LMDE and lets help LMDE mature into a really nice OS.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby k3lt01 on Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:17 pm

azathoth wrote:@OP
Clem DID say at the release of LMDE that it wasn't going to be as "user friendly" as their mainstream editions.
Mint has many ootb editions available which are likely much better suited to many users.
I know but I read a thread the other day saying how easy LMDE is to set up and use and that it is being used by people who are nearer to 100 years than I am. This thread is, unfortunately, the exact opposite of that. In its current state on my laptop I wouldn't, actually in all good conscience couldn't, advise people install LMDE simply because it does take more work than it should to get it going and to maintain. I'm not saying the other thread isn't an accurate representation of that users experiences but I am saying it is far removed from what I am experiencing.

If you read my previous posts I DID say I test Ubuntu, I DID say I am here because I like the idea of a rolling release, I have said I am using LMDE because it is not a fork of a fork. I am trying to help test it. Nick_Djinn said "Its going to be a while before LMDE is as refined as Ubuntu, but something tells me that I might like the direction they ultimately take better." and he is spot on the mark with this comment. I don't know about everyone else but I'd like to be a part of the shaping of LMDE and because of that if I come across a problem I would like to feel that I have the freedom to discuss it with other LMDE users before I post bugs on Launchpad.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby azathoth on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:40 pm

k3lt01 wrote:
azathoth wrote:@OP
Clem DID say at the release of LMDE that it wasn't going to be as "user friendly" as their mainstream editions.
Mint has many ootb editions available which are likely much better suited to many users.
I know but I read a thread the other day saying how easy LMDE is to set up and use and that it is being used by people who are nearer to 100 years than I am. This thread is, unfortunately, the exact opposite of that. In its current state on my laptop I wouldn't, actually in all good conscience couldn't, advise people install LMDE simply because it does take more work than it should to get it going and to maintain. I'm not saying the other thread isn't an accurate representation of that users experiences but I am saying it is far removed from what I am experiencing.

If you read my previous posts I DID say I test Ubuntu, I DID say I am here because I like the idea of a rolling release, I have said I am using LMDE because it is not a fork of a fork. I am trying to help test it. Nick_Djinn said "Its going to be a while before LMDE is as refined as Ubuntu, but something tells me that I might like the direction they ultimately take better." and he is spot on the mark with this comment. I don't know about everyone else but I'd like to be a part of the shaping of LMDE and because of that if I come across a problem I would like to feel that I have the freedom to discuss it with other LMDE users before I post bugs on Launchpad.


I actually agree in that I wouldn't recommend LMDE as such to a noob. What I might consider extremely convenient somebody who doesn't enjoy working with their system might have some trouble with or perhaps find themselves somewhat disillusioned about. But on the other hand, I think many of us would hate to see LMDE stray too far from Debian. (take *buntu for example.) Then you open up a big ol' can of worms of bloat and compatibility issues.
LMDE really IS very easy to install and configure when compared to Debian proper, Arch, Gentoo or Slack. Clean and mean isn't usually compatible with "universally user friendly" but I think Clem and the team have gone as far as anyone could reasonably hope for in marrying the two. Convenience necessitates some bloat. You have to add code, there's simply no way around that. Although a more configurable install might provide the possibility of some compromise there.
Last edited by azathoth on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby msuggs on Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:42 pm

k3lt01 wrote:I find other OS bashing really boring and I have moved away from other communities because it is something I am seeing more and more of. I am here using LMDE because it is not a fork of a fork, I find it interesting people here in Mint bash Ubuntu when regular Mint is a fork of it.

Again, yes of course, I find it equally tedious. I've been here a long time and hope that most people see my thoughts that way. Usually they end with something like, I don't really care what brand of Linux you use as long as you are happy with it and enjoy it. Equally I don't participate in the Windows or Ubuntu sucks threads. Many people here know I'm also a mac user so bashing Os' is kind of hypocritical in that sense. I think you'll find my opinions on Windows not to be bashing but in fact an objective opinion of my user experience as it compares to Linux. Somewhat like you are trying to achieve in this objective thread about your experiences with LMDE :) Some of those views are being challenged by others but you seem more than capable of justifying your opinions ;)
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby k3lt01 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:57 pm

azathoth wrote:I actually agree in that I wouldn't recommend LMDE as such to a noob. What I might consider extremely convenient somebody who doesn't enjoy working with their system might have some trouble with or perhaps find themselves somewhat disillusioned about. But on the other hand, I think many of us would hate to see LMDE stray too far from Debian. (take *buntu for example.) Then you open up a big ol' can of worms of bloat and compatibility issues.
Yes I hope LMDE stays close to its Debian base. Each distro has its good and bad points and its fans and knockers, I'm just looking for what's best for m and my systems and if I can help with the distros I see a bright future with I will do my best.

azathoth wrote:LMDE really IS very easy to install and configure when compared to Debian proper, Arch, Gentoo or Slack. Clean and mean isn't usually compatible with "universally user friendly" but I think Clem and the team have gone as far as anyone could reasonably hope for in marrying the two. Convenience necessitates some bloat. You have to add code, there's simply no way around that. Although a more configurable install might provide the possibility of some compromise there.
I said in my OP it was dead easy to install, my only problem with installation seems to have been not enough RAM. Apart from that installation was extremely easy and very Windows like (IMHO :wink: ). I do however prefer the regular Debian style of installation. I like my Live and Alternate CDs to have a pool folder full of debs. It is just my preference but it allows the installation to match the hardware better.

omns wrote: Many people here know I'm also a mac user so bashing Os' is kind of hypocritical in that sense.
Ah, you may get a few PMs from me then. I was given a G3 server and I am lost with how to get Debian or Ubuntu onto it.

omns wrote: I think you'll find my opinions on Windows not to be bashing but in fact an objective opinion of my user experience as it compares to Linux. Somewhat like you are trying to achieve in this objective thread about your experiences with LMDE :) Some of those views are being challenged by others but you seem more than capable of justifying your opinions ;)
Thanks for the compliment. I'm a school teacher by profession and a motor mechanic by trade. Bashing things that are different is something I have seen in my working life since I left school. Infact it was something that I saw daily when I was a kid.

My views of LMDE are pretty positive it just takes a "little" work to get it how I need it. Let it be known I don't leave Ubuntu standard either but it's 10 minutes work and that is set up how I want it.

I did the Debian base install yesterday and may I just say what an absolutely beautiful system it is now. I still has initial difficulty with the keyboard but that was fixed within minutes of finding it. Everything else so far is working as expected although I haven't given flash a work out yet so I don't know what it is like atm. Ndiswrapper wouldn't play very well but MintWifi got that going nicely.

So, so far it seems both the keyboard and ndiswrapper issue are more Debian related and my initial LMDE LiveCD install just didn't want to play nice. I still believe it is because of the defaults with the LiveCD install clashing with my system as I didn't choose everything in the Mint repo just the things I needed and wanted.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby msuggs on Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:15 pm

k3lt01 wrote:Ah, you may get a few PMs from me then. I was given a G3 server and I am lost with how to get Debian or Ubuntu onto it.

I'm not a big believer in that. Macs are built for OSX and should stay that way.
k3lt01 wrote:Thanks for the compliment. I'm a school teacher by profession

That's a coincidence, so am I. No wonder we think we know everything :P ;)
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby k3lt01 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:11 pm

omns wrote:
k3lt01 wrote:Ah, you may get a few PMs from me then. I was given a G3 server and I am lost with how to get Debian or Ubuntu onto it.

I'm not a big believer in that. Macs are built for OSX and should stay that way.
k3lt01 wrote:Thanks for the compliment. I'm a school teacher by profession

That's a coincidence, so am I. No wonder we think we know everything :P ;)
Think? aren't we supposed to know for certain?

I think, lol, that I have finally fixed my keyboard issues. 2 settings needed adjusting, 1st was keyboard layout 2nd was keyboard model. Both easy fixes but when you think the settings are already in place you don't go looking at the obvious :lol:
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby k3lt01 on Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:54 am

Ok here is question for you all. How do I change the section in Gnome-System-Monitor that tells you what distro etc you are using to shpow LinuxMint and Debian Edition instead of Debian and Testing (Squeeze)? Please don't tell me to use the LiveDVD to install it :lol:

Check the screenshot to see what I mean.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby twa on Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:56 am

Schermata-Ubuntu Tweak.png
Schermata-Ubuntu Tweak.png
k3lt01,
is this what u mean ???
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby k3lt01 on Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:00 pm

twa wrote:k3lt01,
is this what u mean ???
No, I mean Gnome-System-Monitor (GSM) as is shown in the screenshot on my post, not Ubuntu Tweak which while a good program is not something I use.

Basically I need to know what file GSM uses to obtain and then display the relevant information. The sources.list is one, I can change it around and GSM changes from Debian Testing to Debian Sid, but there must be another that I am unable to find.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby uRock on Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:27 pm

I've been playing with this edition for about a week now in a VBox and I must say that I like it. Whenever I get around to doing a full install, I will be able to give a true assertion of how well the install goes.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby k3lt01 on Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:40 pm

uRock, is that you? meaning from Ubuntu Forums?

If you are the uRock I am thinking of I think you will like LMDE. I'd be very interested in your observations.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby riki on Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:14 am

You say you are happy with the defaults so I am assuming you need (meaning use) samba, ndiswrapper, bluez, bogofilter, cabextract, compiz, 13 different firmwares, gparted, just to name a few. To me, so this is just my opinion, many of these things just add to the size of the install DVD without adding anything to the user experience.


k3lt01,

I have not read the whole thread but your post has reminded me of some of the software that I will never use on this machine. I didn't use a DVD to install LMDE but even the CD install contains stuff that many of us will never use, however, most of it is not worth bothering to remove as the files are too small to bloat the system. One can become obsessed about streamlining!
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby k3lt01 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:22 pm

Riki, 2 screenshots for you, the one with the LOTR background is Maverick the other is LMDE. I know both have plenty of room to move but why should I, after I change the default applications to the ones I use and like e.g. Totem to VLC etc, still have a difference in size from Ubuntu to LMDE?

What some people call obsessive others call learning, I learn by getting in and doing things. Right now I am trying to learn, you may have seen me say in another thread that I'm doing a Linux From Scratch build, what is needed for an OS to work and what is not. People say Ubuntu is bloated and buggy, well the screenshots should indicated that Ubuntu is not bloated.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby riki on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:02 pm

k3lt01, I appreciate what you are saying but the two screenshots are almost identical! Surely there must be a difference between distros?
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby msuggs on Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:12 pm

k3lt01 wrote: People say Ubuntu is bloated and buggy, well the screenshots should indicated that Ubuntu is not bloated.

When people say that they often refer to the amount of ram that the system uses and its overall speed and responsiveness. How do find the use of ram compares between the two systems after a first boot and is in an idle state? My personal experience on first boot is that Ubuntu uses about 50mb of extra ram due the amount of extra services and background programs that are running by default. I don't have an ubuntu installation at the moment to give an accurate set of data but this from memory is a rough estimate of the difference between the two installs.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby Gerd50 on Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:10 pm

Hello Mintworld,

first of all, my english is...learned it about 45 years ago at school :mrgreen:

second, i changed from MS to Mint about one and a half year ago. The best thing i could do after six years with XP.

third, LMDE is running on my PC since three weeks now. No problems with installation, only Nvidia driver install and font fix wasn't easy for me.
But with some help of friends in my german Mint forum it went fine.

After the last updates i've got some trouble with the network manager, changed to wicd and it was ok.

So all i can say is, i'm looking forward for a good time with LMDE. I like it. Thank's for this distribution.

Greetings from Germany, Gerd
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby uRock on Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:42 pm

k3lt01 wrote:uRock, is that you? meaning from Ubuntu Forums?

If you are the uRock I am thinking of I think you will like LMDE. I'd be very interested in your observations.

Yup, it's me. I am still using LMDE in a VBox, but I do like it. Like Crunchbang, I hope Mint keeps doing their own thing and making yet another great Debian based distro.
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Re: My initial observations of LMDE

Postby k3lt01 on Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:09 pm

Omns, my LMDE and Ubuntu installs are quite close but LMDE uses more RAM when in an idle state and also more when I have apps like Firefox open.

Just out of interests sake I have also compared LMDE and Maverick with an appropriately modified Squeeze. When I say appropriately modified I simply mean same packages etc. For all intents and purposes the 3 installs are the exact same except for Mint and Ubuntu specific packages in LMDE and Maverick. Squeeze is the best of the lot running with approximately 115 MB RAM at idle compared to 130-150 for LMDE and Maverick.

While I absolutely love Ubuntu and LMDE I'm thinking Debian is my best option, it is now my daily use OS. But I will keep them all on this laptop to see how both LMDE and Ubuntu keep maturing.
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