Development

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Re: Developemt

Postby cmost on Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:14 pm

mandog wrote:Parsix uses Lenny/Sid with Gnome with no problems, Stop putting Gnome down I use E17 Gnome And KDE and my preference is in that order I use KDE on ARCH, and only Arch, Its so Boring, technically its superior but thats where it stops. Gnome is a good base and customises well and hides the Technical stuff under the hood. e17 is the eye candy I use it 99% of the time. Back to parsix its good very good as with Sidux the scripts are good and they port a few of the better ideas from Ubuntu like, and they work.


Nobody is putting Gnome down. It's a known fact that Gnome is not as well maintained in Debian as KDE and becomes broken much more frequently than KDE. The suggestion to use KDE over Gnome was based purely on that reason. On the other hand, you're right by pointing out that some Debian based distros do use Gnome without difficulty. The problem will come when users attempt to upgrade to the latest Gnome release. I hope you're standing by to field the myriad of problems that likely will occur. :wink:
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Re: Developemt

Postby sundayrefugee on Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:35 pm

Agreed. Nobody is putting down GNOME. As a user capable of stage 3 gentooing at will, I kinda, sorta, am aware of what desktop environment I'm in while I'm using my beloved Mint :wink:

However, as alluded to above, and as Clem has even said, it runs flawlessly to you, largely because MUCH, MUCH effort has been taken to work out the kinks, knots, and bugs before you see them, which are much less frequent in Debian KDE.

This is in NO way an indictment of which desktop environment is *better* (there's no such thing, only which works better for you), etc...

It's been brought up and discussed only from the perspective of possibly having to be on the maintaining side of it.

As a simple, undisputable, and unfortunate fact, maintaining Debian KDE is a touch easier than maintaining Debian GNOME.

In my own little Minty, Debian perfect world, I don't like the idea of *one* person being in charge of a Debian *community* distro. For one, it gets touchy, as for instance we've had no feedback from Zonas in a while. Has he lost interest and wandered off, or is he so deep in coding that he's lost track of posting? There's no dev-list email group.

A Debian Mint should have a Debian Mint board, and a true Debian Mint *community* involved in it's making, it should be totally transparent, and there should be an email list for it. I've been wanting to say this for a while. Anything else is, well, not Debian :(

I think we should gather a *group*, not a single individual, decide on a direction *together*, delegate teams and responsibilites, elect a board, have 1 member 1st among equals (Clem?) in case there (and only in case) there is a deadlock, and develop on a rolling basis as a community.

For instance - An admin team (keeps track of the project as a whole), art team, theme team, kernel team, multimedia team, wiki team, promotion team, etc.... Public bug-testing and reporting. There should be something there that every forum member can do. This is the Debian way (with a little Mint thrown in).
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Re: Developemt

Postby idiotkiwi on Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:07 am

Sundayrefugee

Agree with you 100%
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Re: Developemt

Postby VaMPiRiC_CRoW on Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:48 am

Why not base it on sidux?
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Re: Developemt

Postby cmost on Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:51 am

idiotkiwi wrote:Sundayrefugee

Agree with you 100%


I second that. Let's get started!
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Re: Developemt

Postby sundayrefugee on Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:16 pm

cmost wrote:
idiotkiwi wrote:Sundayrefugee

Agree with you 100%


I second that. Let's get started!


Let's do it.
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Re: Development

Postby sundayrefugee on Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:08 am

Ok.

By my reckoning, it should start with a proposal of intent and a mission statement to Clem. Obviously, he will either approve or deny the trying of the project. It would have to be approved by at least 2 people interested in being in the group before being submitted to Clem for approval. And note that we would obviously be subordinate to him ;) But hopefully such a project could give back to Mint as much as it took from it.

Anyone approve or deny that?

And, anyone want to add to what I wrote breifly above, which would probably be included in a proposal? I nominate that the proposal be put for public vote before being submitted for approval as a project to Clem. I value transparency in a Debian project.

Note that this is also some enthusiasts hoping, and may or may not even be approved at all by Clem. If not, no hard feelings - I'll be using Mint 4.0 (and 5.0) as usual. This is nothing more than a seed of an idea that will be submitted to be kicked around and see what Clem thinks of it ;) Also note that I have in no way had ANY communication with him in any way, shape or form, although I'd like to, concerning this project. I'm just an ordinary user like everyone else who's excited to be a part of a team that can take a stab at this ;)

Any and all comments welcome :D
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Re: Development

Postby awong on Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:36 am

I like the idea of a team working on the community editions. I'm tired of reading about e17/debian/whatever mint ce's remaining vapourware because the one person team got bored and changed hobbies after posting all the great things that he/she did or had an iso ready for testing and poof - gone. I also like the idea of asking Clem for approval, since Mint is his brand. I can't contribute much except to cheer on the sidelines and perhaps do beta testing, but I agree with sundayrefugee.
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Re: Development

Postby clem on Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:58 am

It's an interesting idea. The number 1 question should be whether you want it to be an edition or an independent project. I can explain further in details the difference between the two if you want me to.

Clem
PS: I prefer Gnome myself for this edition because the core of what is added to Debian (Mint tools mostly) is closely linked to it and written in python/gtk. Also, I'm not sure how the rolling aspect of debian is going to manage the future transition between KDE 3 and KDE 4, so there's a question mark here.
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Re: Development

Postby frank392 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:17 am

I think it should be based on Debian stable.
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Re: Development

Postby changturkey on Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:38 am

Debian Stable or Lenny, you choose. MEPIS does a great job with KDE, so don't get discouraged, and though Debian is mainly GNOME, don't be afraid to use KDE 3 or 4. My opinions..
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Re: Development

Postby sundayrefugee on Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:02 pm

I prefer Debian Stable myself.

@ Clem - GNOME - noted, will do ;-) I'd like to know the differences in your thought between the two version possibilites. I think it should be in the "Mint" family, if that makes any sense. I really don't have any interest in doing an independant fork, myself, but I guess I could help out anyone who does.

For those wondering what you can do? There need to be administrative overseers who help manage the project as a whole, keeping track of details, bugs, deadlines, personell. That requires no extraordinary skills except your time ;-) Also, BUGTESTERS, BUGTESTERS, BUGTESTERS!
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Re: Development

Postby sundayrefugee on Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:26 pm

changturkey wrote:Debian Stable or Lenny, you choose. MEPIS does a great job with KDE, so don't get discouraged, and though Debian is mainly GNOME, don't be afraid to use KDE 3 or 4. My opinions..


That's the thing. I don't think any one person should choose, although I should get a vote, just like everyone else ;)

Also, note that if there aren't a sufficient amount of people to get the thing started (I think more would join in later as they saw it develop), then I have no interest in going forward. I'm not a 1 person show myself - I simply don't have the time or skill, to be honest. It *has* to be a community undertaking, or no-go, I think ;)

I also don't see any competition between a Debian Stable GNOME Mint and Mint as we all know and love. Two very different concepts - Debian GNOME Mint would be older package editions for the less adventurous, run on less intensive hardware, probably not come with Compiz or Beryl by default, and would be rolling in some fashion. I think of it much more as a complimentary sub-project with different aims.
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Re: Development

Postby VaMPiRiC_CRoW on Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:31 pm

So, this is a new beginning for the Mint Debian CE?

It will be based on Debian Stable, Testing or Unstable?

What will be the default Desktop Environment, Gnome or KDE?

Greetings
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Re: Development

Postby sundayrefugee on Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:52 pm

VaMPiRiC_CRoW wrote:So, this is a new beginning for the Mint Debian CE?

It will be based on Debian Stable, Testing or Unstable?

What will be the default Desktop Environment, Gnome or KDE?

Greetings


It could be ;)

I'd like Clem to explain the details of the differences, but if I'm not missing my mark, I'd like it to be an "Edition", subordinate to Mint.

The desktop environment would be GNOME. I'm thinking Stable (which, by the time anything "official" was out, would probably be Lenny anyway, so we should probably shoot at developing with Lenny to begin with), but again, that's something that would be up to the community. I'm just trying to guage some interest and see if we have the resources and teams to pull it off - I'm certainly not in charge that I know of, nor would I want to be, although I'd be delighted to be a part of such an undertaking ;) If there's not enough resources, though, it's kind of a dead project. Let's see what we have, and who's interested in helping. Maybe a post in another part of the forum would be appropriate to draw attention?

Something I've noticed a bit to some initial posting - I don't want to bash the "lack of transparency" or "one-man shows" of other Mint projects - these guys work DAMN hard, and the time taken shows just how hard such an undertaking would be. I'll have no part of bashing these guys, their development model, their months of hard work, etc... I'd like to see this happen because I think Debian stability and Mint tools, focus on user-freindliness, and penchant for style and beauty are a perfect marriage. Or at least a worthy option. I also think such a project could give back to the parent Mint project.

I'm stressing board, community, and openness of development as a model not because of dissatisfaction of any project, but because that's the Debian way, and I thought it appropriate for a Debian project.

But certainly, if anyone has pent up frustration or whatnot and a need to contribute that isn't being met, this would certainly be a worthy undertaking.

We'll see if this even has enough support to get off the ground.

Again, though. Ideas?
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Re: Development

Postby awong on Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:06 am

Apologies for bashing one-man-no-shows. :wink: I acknowledge the hard work they put in; it would be nice if they had shared their work-in-progress before they disappeared as the works were Linux community editions, but each person has their freedom to do as they want (and this is the beauty of Linux).

Back to the main idea; as time permits, I could do the "testing testing testing" part. I don't know if I have the time to do administration or promotion, with family and a full-time job.
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Re: Development

Postby sundayrefugee on Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:00 am

awong wrote:Apologies for bashing one-man-no-shows. :wink: I acknowledge the hard work they put in; it would be nice if they had shared their work-in-progress before they disappeared as the works were Linux community editions, but each person has their freedom to do as they want (and this is the beauty of Linux).

Back to the main idea; as time permits, I could do the "testing testing testing" part. I don't know if I have the time to do administration or promotion, with family and a full-time job.


Aye, same here mate. Full-time job, family, hobbies. God bless Clem, his talents, and his gang. I sure as hell don't have the time or talent to do it alone ;)

Every bit helps, though, and with a project that might shoot for Debian Lenny (becoming Stable) GNOME, "TESTING, TESTING, TESTING" will be as important as anything - maybe THE most important thing ;) You don't know what to fix if you don't have people willing to break it :lol: And the great thing is, as Debian has always said "If you break it, you get to keep both halves" :lol:

But if there aren't more posts here soon, I'd like to ask for a post guaging interest in team participation in a more visible part of the forum. I wonder how many people visit this subfora now?

Anyhoo, onwards. My personal proposal:

1. Ok, this one comes from Clem, and I agree: GNOME. The Mint tools are already designed in GTK. KDE4 is also a gigantic uncertainty at this point.
2. I propose using Lenny now, as a base for eventually releasing under Stable. The catch is that by the time a release-worthy client is available, Lenny will likely either already be declared Stable by Debian, or be close enough that the hump shouldn't be too hard. From there, rolling shouldn't be TOO hard, and hopefully a dilligent team pinning will help, along with an augmenting repository.
3. Eyewateringly gorgeous Mint artwork. Does this even have to be mentioned? :lol:
4. Full mutlimedia by default, with possibly an option for a "lite" version for USA legal reasons only. Yes, I know this goes against the grain of everything Debian ever stood for, and I've proposed several Debian-style methods so far. Why the change? Mint is about useability, user-freindliness, among many other things. Default Debian is stupendously easy to get up and running. We want to be different, and we want to come with an "out of the box" experience that is *based* on Debian, but is Mint ;)
5. No Compiz by default. Yes, every review seems to center on "spinning the cube". I like the idea, rather, of either asking to enable it during install, or having a Mintinstall package easily available. Compiz is still not stable, is full of memory leaks, etc... Instead, I propose a more modern re-theming.
6. Why? Well, several reasons, actually. First of which would be "why not?" If you weren't at least a *little* curious, you wouldn't even be using Linux ;) Second, Mint is a very ambitious and yet stable, up-to-date OS. A Debian sub-project would be more conservative as to hardware requirements and Compiz bling, but at the sake of cutting-edge. Third, the worst we can do is either only 4 people even respond to this thread and we never get off the ground, or utterly, completely fail. In either situation, hopefully what we learn from failure furthers Mint. And if it succeeded? Then there's another, distinct choice in the Mint family :wink:

Again, though, and it can't be stressed enough: it would require time and people. The first is plentiful. The second, we'll see ;-)
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Re: Development

Postby clem on Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:12 pm

Ok here we go :)

Difference between Derivative Distro & LM Community Edition:

It's all about control and image.

If you want to maintain your own distribution, form your own community, take care of all aspects of the project (not just the ISO) then you should make a derivated distribution. Or if you have ideas or a vision for the ISO which ae not shared by the Mint team you can implement them yourself in a separate distro. It's hard and it's long and chances are it'll take for the project to become popular, but this way you have full control over it.

If you're only interested in the resulting ISO and don't want to worry about other aspects of a distro, then you should opt for a Community Edition. You basically work in close collaboration with the team, you're given an FTP access to which you can upload your ISO, it gets tested by the Mint team, you get feedback from the testers and they eventually release it for you. As a Mint edition it gets a lot more attention and you can fully focus on the product itself. The drawback of course is that the Mint project takes responsibility over what you make, the team releases it for you, it's bearing the "Linux Mint" name and impacts its image so there's constant talks about this and that between you and the team and they have the final say on everything. If the team judges that the ISO isn't suited for public release it doesn't get released.

Now, whether you're maintaining a distro or an edition it can of course be fully transparent. We encourage maintainers to participate in the forums and to actively exchange ideas and feedback with the community. The one important thing though is that there is 1 appointed maintainer for the edition, and this maintainer becomes part of the Mint team.

The same way people can give feedback on the forums, new ideas, and even sometimes direct contributions for the Main Edition, the same way I give feedback as to how ready is the next release, a maintainer can do that with a community edition. The one important thing is that the edition is labelled "Linux Mint" and so consequently the maintainer doesn't control every aspect of it, or its release plan.

Back to the Debian:

Mint tools don't work with Debian Stable, python is too old in this version. Also, the real advantage of Debian IMHO is its rolling aspect and so the most interesting development I think would be to base on top of Debian testing and modify mintUpdate to simulate mini-jumps from one know stable configuration of Testing to another.

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Re: Development

Postby clem on Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:18 pm

As to why a Debian Mint CE?

-> It would be faster (much faster).
-> It would be rolling (install now and use it for the next ten years with everything updating itself).
-> There would probably be a little "je ne sais quoi" about it. With each CE comes a different maintainer so you always get a mix of severe strict control from me and exploder and crazy/bold/genius innovative ideas from the maintainer. (For instance you can see how KDE CE and XFCE CE are truly Minty but also unique in their own way... this is due to the continuous talks we have together with Boo and Merlwiz for instance, each bringing in new ideas and me looking after consistency and being a real kill-joy :)).

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Re: Development

Postby clem on Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:19 pm

By the way. Zonas already started working on this. Does anyone know if he still is? I haven't been in contact with him for a while now.

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