Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Forum rules
Before you post read how to get help. Topics in this forum are automatically closed 6 months after creation.
fraxinus_63

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by fraxinus_63 »

What are the lessons we must learn from all of this?

I have always been keen on the idea of Mint advertising the LTS editions more strongly than it does at present, especially as (thanks to Ubuntu's policy changes) the half-yearly issues are now supported for such a brief period.

People who download the LTS editions should be told (perhaps via a screenload of advice while installing, or a very prominent README) that there are different ways of managing them. For example, you can opt in to backports if you want recent desktop enhancements at the earliest opportunity, but with a warning that desktop configuration and theming issues may sometimes arise and that this is perhaps more appropriate for more experienced users.

One of the many great things about the LTS releases is that you can use them for years. Enabling backports means that, over that length of time, you are actually ending up with something more like a 'rolling release', with core elements changing over time. The thing is, you don't have to take this route and the choices need to be made clearer.

Rolling releases are not for everyone, for many reasons. I used PCLinuxOS - an excellent distro - for many years but I ended up switching to Mint because it didn't roll. In the end, my problem with PCLOS was that occasionally a major update which broke some aspect of my workflow would come "down the wires" unexpectedly, and there was no way of rolling it back. With Mint LTS I have the best of both worlds. I can take and try the backported goodness, but if it really doesn't work out for me I can always reinstall and start again with backports not enabled ...
User avatar
clem
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 4303
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:34 am
Contact:

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by clem »

Thanks. That captures the issue very well.

We want people to have access to new technology but as an opt-in. What we learnt here is simple... it was too easy for people to opt-in without meaning to. We'll need to make sure the process remains easy for people who actively want backports, but out of reach for people who don't. We should also include warnings and more information in relation to the risks involved, how to troubleshoot and how to backup/snapshot/restore the system in case things go wrong.

The dev. team is discussing the idea of sticking to LTS and there are reasons for us to consider using our own package base. Although that's very much R&D at this stage and nothing was decided yet, let me assure you upgrade paths, regressions, opt-ins and backports are at the heart of our preoccupation. Like you, we want something rock solid which doesn't move, but also the ability for people who want new technology, to easily access it.

I understand that people expect everything to work perfectly always and don't necessarily understand the complexity associated with updates and the inherent risks of regressions when it comes to software updates. Some of the feedback we're getting is testament to that. When somebody says "there's no sound module in cinnamon settings", we act quickly and add cinnamon-control-center to mint-meta-cinnamon. When somebody says "there's two System Settings in my menu, what's going on?", we understand they don't have the same knowledge we do about GNOME vs Cinnamon and so we communicate about this on the blog. When somebody says "this destroyed my computer", or "nothing works", we understand that person isn't experienced enough to even describe his/her situation, and whether he/she is actually facing an issue or just lacking competence, what we learn from that is that this person shouldn't have been served these backports.

Quantitatively it's hard to assess how many experienced users opted-in and enjoyed the backports, and how many people didn't opt-in and still enjoy Maya without them. There are a few people here and on the blog who opted-in by mistake and if we get the proper feedback from them, we'll help them getting back on their feet (we're on the IRC, that's probably the best place for them to reach us). Going forward we'll make sure to add more red flags, more info and to target people a little bit better.

We're very proud of Maya and we're very proud of the improvements that came in Nadia, Olivia and Petra. Upgrading software is always a risk. That's why Mint is a frozen distribution, that's why it takes us a full month to release an edition, that's why we don't recommend updates and that's why we don't recommend upgrades from one release to the next. We need to communicate on that risk a little bit better.

I'd like to apologize to everybody here who clicked on that "Backports" checkbox thinking "cool, more stable software". That's not how it works. There was a risk here and we failed to properly explain it. In terms of timing also, there is a blog post accompanying these backports. The fact that people opted-in from the Software Properties, maybe a long time ago, and were surprised by level 1 and 2 updates this week without warnings, without necessarily knowing about the blog post and trusting them as being safe... that's also something we need to look at and improve upon.
Image
User avatar
Pierre
Level 21
Level 21
Posts: 13192
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:33 am
Location: Perth, AU.

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by Pierre »

The real problem here, as I see it, is that it's way too easy for people to enable backports without worrying about what it means.
which shouldn't be done, - if your PC is your main production PC.
- test it first, - on a non-critical PC. :)
There's no way I reinstalling, so I guess I going have make do with XFCE
why can't you just re-install Mint 13 ??.
- yeah there's gonna be a heap of updates, but that's to be expected.
Image
Please edit your original post title to include [SOLVED] - when your problem is solved!
and DO LOOK at those Unanswered Topics - - you may be able to answer some!.
User avatar
clem
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 4303
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:34 am
Contact:

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by clem »

One thing we know is that both MATE 1.6 and Cinnamon 2.0 work very well. So if we get feedback that is detailed enough from people experiencing problems, we can help them.

Usual causes are:

- incomplete updates (someone stuck with a partial interrupted update)
- incompatible configuration (for instance a 3rd party applet which was previously installed and doesn't work with Cinnamon 2.0)
- missing packages

In some cases there are also issues with the software itself, and if they're properly described we can fix them. With that said, both of these DEs went through full QA, RC and stable releases with Linux Mint 16 Petra, so they should work pretty well.
Image
Trapper
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:21 pm
Location: North Port, Florida USA

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by Trapper »

clem wrote:The fact that people opted-in from the Software Properties, maybe a long time ago, and were surprised by level 1 and 2 updates this week without warnings, without necessarily knowing about the blog post and trusting them as being safe... that's also something we need to look at and improve upon.
From what we've seen from this last backport situation it's looking as if some sort of warning/caution message may need to be displayed prior to downloading any backport files so the user gets that one last chance to understand they are not doing a normal update, the possible consequences involved and that one last chance to say yes or no.
User avatar
clem
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 4303
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:34 am
Contact:

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by clem »

I think it's the opt-in itself which is too trivial... I'd rather show red flags and make it harder for people to opt-in than do it in the update manager itself. To be honest, most people dismiss dialog boxes without reading them when they get in the way of common tasks.

Typically here, Mint 13 shipped with the ability to graphically enable backports, before any information on future backports was even written. Ideally, we'd have people read the blog, consider the backports being offered, understand the risks involved, know where to find help if things go wrong and decide whether they want to make the jump or not.

We can offer an opt-in with a download link from a blog announcement for instance, rather than a simple checkbox in the OS itself.
Image
Trapper
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:21 pm
Location: North Port, Florida USA

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by Trapper »

clem wrote: We can offer an opt-in with a download link from a blog announcement for instance, rather than a simple checkbox in the OS itself.
This idea gets my vote. :)
fraxinus_63

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by fraxinus_63 »

Thanks for your comments, Clem.
We can offer an opt-in with a download link from a blog announcement for instance, rather than a simple checkbox in the OS itself.
Good idea. Alternatively, you could still have a backports tick-box, but make it display a warning message of the kind you have when changing certain settings in Firefox. "Don't proceed unless you follow the Linux Mint blog and know what you might be letting yourself in for."

I guess the same should apply to the Unstable packages (Romeo) option!
User avatar
clem
Level 12
Level 12
Posts: 4303
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:34 am
Contact:

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by clem »

Yes, but the question itself is probably wrong, even if you add warnings. Ideally you don't want to bother everybody with something only a few are interested in, and you want them to read these warnings when the time comes, and with information relevant to the content itself, not 2 years earlier in a vague "will you want whatever backports we throw at you in the future?".

This is turning into a design session :)
Image
BrunoMiranda
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:22 pm

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by BrunoMiranda »

Yes, a warning before updates would be good, just to call out attention we might break things. Something like on LMDE when applying Update Packs as it reads the changelogs, pops it open for us to read and we must close it in order to go on. And there should be some sort of categorization where we should understand that some updates are regular safe ones, and some others are backports that just aren't that safe.

This Debian Weather way is nice! :) (but it seems the link is now broken, hope it comes back to life)
http://edos.debian.net/weather/

For example, with this update we're discussing, there could be a pop up image, showing us if we have backports enabled or not, with a sunshine icon if not (safe to upgrade), and a rainy or thunderstorm icon if backports were on (this has been breaking things for a high percentage of installs), also giving us the chance to accept the risk and proceed, and also a checkbox to disable backports for now and just install the safe stuff.

For the terminal, there could be a sentence saying: "Warning: These are backport updates."


I was working and multitasling at the time this update came in and just got happy when I saw a Caja update, I just smilled and thought "Huuu, bring it on!", not thinking twice. Some warning would have called my attention and I would have waited a few hours or days until the work was done, made a backup and then throw the thing at the computer without fear of breaking it.

That's exactly what I'll do on my other laptop. Learned my lesson about backports... ;)
Bye for now,
Bruno


(Always backup before you screw up :)
joncr

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by joncr »

Fascinating discussion. I would add the obvious caveat that no matter how many red flags are waved about backports and updates, many people will still push the button without a moment's thought. (I 'd also question how many users know what a "backport" actually is.)

IIRC, a lot of similar ire was raised at the mate-desktop.org forums when 1.6 was released as an update. Folks ran what they thought was a routine update to 1.4 installations and got 1.6 plus breakage, particularly from the mate-conf to gsettings shift.
norm.h
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:45 am
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by norm.h »

I have 2 laptops and a desktop, all running Mint 13.
When I installed the recent update for MATE from 1.4 to 1.6 on one laptop, I had the same reported issues with the desktop which were quite easily overcome as my configuration is simple and I'm not dual-booting.
I couldn't understand why my other laptop didn't show the same updates, until I discovered it was because "backports" wasn't selected. So I enabled them and did the updates, followed by my desktop.

All seems OK on all machines except that on both laptops, there is no login sound.
I've checked the files and they are there and they do work, so it seems to be a configuration issue.
The sound preferences are set correctly, but still no login sound, although sound is OK in all other respects.
Not a major problem, but a tad irritating. I can't check my desktop as sound is disconnected for other reasons.

The other issue is with the desktop only.
Although it's set to require a login, it logs in automatically.
Again, the settings are correct, but something isn't right.

If these issues are configuration, where should I be looking? Or are they "bugs

If I disable the backports repo, how will I know when anything becomes available, so I can choose whether or not to install them?
Trapper
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:21 pm
Location: North Port, Florida USA

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by Trapper »

norm.h wrote: The other issue is with the desktop only.
Although it's set to require a login, it logs in automatically.
Again, the settings are correct, but something isn't right.
Are you referring to Users and Groups settings, MDM Auto Login settings or both? If memory servers me correctly there was a time when both Users & Groups and MDM login had to be set for auto/no auto login. I think with the new MDM the Auto Login setting in mdmsetup is only needed to control auto/no auto login. Someone correct me if I am wrong.
norm.h
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:45 am
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by norm.h »

Thanks for your reply.
I'm using Login Window Preferences (Auto login tab) as found in Main Menu > Control Centre > Login Window.
Neither option is enabled, yet the PC logs in automatically.
Are these the "MDM Auto Login settings" you refer to?
I'm the sole user, there are no groups.
My settings are the same on all 3 machines and both laptops and work as expected.
Trapper
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:21 pm
Location: North Port, Florida USA

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by Trapper »

norm.h wrote:Thanks for your reply.
I'm using Login Window Preferences (Auto login tab) as found in Main Menu > Control Centre > Login Window.
Neither option is enabled, yet the PC logs in automatically.
Are these the "MDM Auto Login settings" you refer to?
I'm the sole user, there are no groups.
My settings are the same on all 3 machines and both laptops and work as expected.
How about System/Administration/Users and Groups? Is the user that logins in automatically set up to have password asked for at login? I suspect you've already checked that but I am just following through. If your MDM is set for no auto login and users&groups is set up the same way I really don't know what else to tell you regarding how to fix your problem.
norm.h
Level 5
Level 5
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:45 am
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by norm.h »

That was it - thank you so much.
Just the no login sound issue remains, but not really a problem.
Trapper
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 357
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:21 pm
Location: North Port, Florida USA

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by Trapper »

norm.h wrote:That was it - thank you so much.
Just the no login sound issue remains, but not really a problem.
Glad you found the problem with the login. Hopefully someone shares a resolve for your sound issue in MDM. All I do with MDM is set it for auto login because I use full disk encryption and really have no other use for it and don't pay particular attention to options, settings, etc. Have a good day, today and every day.
rbeltz48
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:08 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by rbeltz48 »

clem wrote:The dev. team is discussing the idea of sticking to LTS and there are reasons for us to consider using our own package base.

I'd like to apologize to everybody here who clicked on that "Backports" checkbox thinking "cool, more stable software". That's not how it works. There was a risk here and we failed to properly explain it. In terms of timing also, there is a blog post accompanying these backports. The fact that people opted-in from the Software Properties, maybe a long time ago, and were surprised by level 1 and 2 updates this week without warnings, without necessarily knowing about the blog post and trusting them as being safe... that's also something we need to look at and improve upon.
Thanks for your comments Clem and for the humility to make an apology about the Mate 1.6 update. I agree that you and the team should seriously consider sticking to LTS releases as a rolling release and also seriously consider using Mint's own package base AND your own repositories as opposed to Ubuntu who apparently seems content to go in their own direction. My wife and I are still using Mint 13 but have disabled backports. This is the 3rd time I had to install Maya on my laptop and I hope it is the last. Thanks again.
fraxinus_63

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by fraxinus_63 »

rbeltz48 wrote:My wife and I are still using Mint 13 but have disabled backports. This is the 3rd time I had to install Maya on my laptop and I hope it is the last. Thanks again.
Glad you are still with us after your experiences!

There is a very interesting post by eanfrid here: http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... 02#p803490. I haven't used it before, but it sounds as if there is a script you can use to automatically upgrade one LTS version to the next. i.e. you can go on using 13 until you are ready to move to the next LTS (17) and the script will do the transfer for you without any need to reinstall from scratch.
rbeltz48
Level 4
Level 4
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:08 pm
Location: Florida, USA

Re: Leaving Linux Mint After Doing MATE 1.6 Update

Post by rbeltz48 »

fraxinus_63 wrote:
rbeltz48 wrote:My wife and I are still using Mint 13 but have disabled backports. This is the 3rd time I had to install Maya on my laptop and I hope it is the last. Thanks again.
Glad you are still with us after your experiences!

There is a very interesting post by eanfrid here: http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.p ... 02#p803490. I haven't used it before, but it sounds as if there is a script you can use to automatically upgrade one LTS version to the next. i.e. you can go on using 13 until you are ready to move to the next LTS (17) and the script will do the transfer for you without any need to reinstall from scratch.
When I used Ubuntu (prior to 2012) you could do an upgrade from one version to another flawlessly. One example was going from Ubuntu 9.10 to 10.04 or from 10.04 to 10.10. I wonder why Mint hasn't developed that option yet. It would certain save lots of time and frustration and not having to do a complete upgrade from scratch. How about it Clem?
Locked

Return to “MATE”