Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

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Should Linux Mint...

Maintain There Own Distro
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Follow Ubuntu
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Follow Debian
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Other (tell me in the comments)
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Total votes : 306

Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby craig10x on Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:49 am

Even the very first time i used linux and was running, i think it was ubuntu 8.04, i thought to myself...why the heck does it have TWO PANELS? what a waste of space...why doesn't it just have one panel on the bottom and a slab style menu like windows (one thing that windows does do right ) :lol:

If Clem can continue the mint style desktop with gnome 3 (using extensions) then i think that would be terrific :D
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby theremper on Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:55 pm

I would like to see mint 12 and beyond use gnome 3 with a mint shell. imo the gnome 3 shell is beyond terrible makes life much more difficult and the unity shell is great for phones and tables just not laptop and desktops. Kde has it drawbacks as a default interface for mint. If a mint shell built on gnome is not possible at this time then perhaps xfce with the mint interface would work.

LMDE is a debian distro. but it is not for everyone. I am not a linux expert but have been using linux since 1999 mandrake and installing and configuring lmde to a full setup working with all apps installed and working took about 3-4 hours due to touchpad driver problems and updates. with linux mint 11 the same setup took 30-60 minutes. so I think they should stay with ubuntu as there base for less knowledgeable users.

with all that said I am using LMDE because I like the rolling release. I hate having to do a big system update, and can fix any problem that can come along.

now if the driver and fstab issues, could be fixed and a bimontly distro update so there are not so many updates. then lmde would be the top distro in the world
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby linuxviolin on Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:29 pm

zerozero wrote:
At this stage it might go either way, or it’s possible we might support both versions of Gnome going forward. (...) we’ll take our time and make the right decision.

Hmm, "support both versions of Gnome"? GNOME 2 is dead and will not receive updates, patches, bug fixes... updates. It is stopped and no more developed by the GNOME devs. Mint would want to maintain it alone à la Red Hat? I'm not sure this is a good idea, and with all the other things to do, the Mint team would have the time to make that and provide updates, patches, bug fixes... for a dead product? :roll: The GNOME Devs *force* us to change, whether we like it or not. :twisted:

Oh and in your quote I read:

the new desktop is extremely different than what we’re aiming for

What to say? How is it? What understand exactly? Can we have a small screenshot or a short description to have an idea? :?:

craig10x wrote:My top corners are precious

Yes, because you have these new screens with their *stupid* sizes and resolutions...

AlbertP wrote:I agree that two taskbars on one screen is just a waste of space.

Absolutely not. Except maybe if you have... see above.

Vincent Vermeulen wrote:One is enough as proven by Linux Mint

Not at all. Not agree. :-)

Vincent Vermeulen wrote:these days with widescreen monitors

Precisely with screens so big you can give a few millimeters to a small panel. And except for some works where they are useful, the majority of people has no real need for so large screens. Except for seeing their Blu-Ray Dics maybe... :lol: But as I already said, I agree that with the "new" and *stupid* current screen sizes and resolutions, in the laptops for instance, two panels may not be optimal.

craig10x wrote:Even the very first time i used linux and was running, i think it was ubuntu 8.04, i thought to myself...why the heck does it have TWO PANELS? what a waste of space...why doesn't it just have one panel on the bottom and a slab style menu like windows

Just a common and normal Windows reflex/habit...

Fortunately, it is quite easy to add or remove a panel, following what people prefer. If you want knowing why the best setup is with 2 panels, you could look at your (small) windows list stuck in the middle of the panel and maybe you understand... or not! :mrgreen: (if you have relatively many windows opened for example) I had screen captures to explain and show this well but I have lost them and I have no time and I'm too lazy now for make again these small presentations/explanations. :oops: :D (Just a precision. I speak here about a "classic" desktop with no Compiz or other and without these stupid effects...)

But as I said, it is quite easy to add or remove a panel, following what people prefer. So, everyone can easily setup his/her desktop as (s)he prefers, although I would prefer the defaults be good. :P With GNOME 3... :roll:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby craig10x on Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:33 pm

nope...i still feel 2 panels are totally unnecessary...if you want to add the second, that is your choice but the default that most of us prefer is 1 panel...
Anyway, even ubuntu doesn't have 2 anymore with unity...but it doesn't even give you the choice of PLACING that one panel on the bottom...

i think there is a good chance (with all the extensions that have been coming out for gnome 3) for Clem to have gnome 3 in mint with the "traditional mint desktop" which is 1 panel on bottom and the mint menu...

it's not just from coming from windows that makes me prefer it that way, i always thought it made more sense...when i ran Mac for awhile the one thing i wasn' t that crazy about is the OSX system has the panel on the top..."docky" was ok...but i could have "lived" without it :wink:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby zerozero on Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:11 am

linuxviolin, those are not my words, of course :) i just quoted Clem;
i too believe that maintain gnome2 is an impossible task:
- this is what debian considers must be done for the gtk2/gtk3 transition
http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/ ... 00111.html
so, i assume, if someone wants to maintain gnome2 has to backport all that :shock:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby linuxviolin on Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:23 pm

zerozero wrote:those are not my words, of course :) i just quoted Clem;
i too believe that maintain gnome2 is an impossible task:
- this is what debian considers must be done for the gtk2/gtk3 transition
http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/ ... 00111.html
so, i assume, if someone wants to maintain gnome2 has to backport all that :shock:

Yes. :shock:

craig10x wrote:i still feel 2 panels are totally unnecessary

Not for me... But good for you if you have found the best setup for you. Let there be one or two panels, it is fortunately quite easy to add or remove a panel, following what people prefer. So, this is not a real problem although it asks some extra minutes to setup his/her desktop.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby craig10x on Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:37 pm

various extensions for gnome 3 enable one to make a gnome 3 desktop look just like the old ubuntu set-up, so i'd imagine it would be not too much of a problem for Clem to carry on with the usual mint style desktop as he has always had...only with gnome 3 instead of 2....and i would also imagine you'd be able to add in your bottom panel as you love linuxviolin... :lol:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby linuxviolin on Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:56 pm

Well, I have already said what I think about the extensions... And till now, I have seen no extensions which give quite the real GNOME 2 experience.

But don't worry. :lol: Although GNOME 2 was my desktop of choice, since some time now I no more use it. With GNOME 3, GNOME is dead, at least for me. After to have using XFCE for some time, I use now the only about good and modern desktop available, i.e. KDE.

I'm not completely happy at 100%. E.g. "Aaron Seigo "vision" is killing KDE. Most users simply do not use activities, plasmoids or the terrible netbook version": http://www.osnews.com/permalink?486885
Or also the more I use KDE 4.7.00, the more I find Windows 7 better, and Windows XP faster... Oh, BTW, about KDE performance: http://ostatic.com/blog/kde-performance-boost-ahead

But it's in my opinion the best for now, or the less bad if you want/prefer. We'll see in the future.
Last edited by linuxviolin on Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby zerozero on Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:35 pm

but that is one of the beauties of KDE (ohh well you know that :mrgreen: ): you can have a traditional desktop, a cluttered-plasma interface, the search&launch, activities, whatever, with a few clicks and within the same session;

as for kwin's performance, it' not that bad atm
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a ... ers1&num=1
but i'm too looking forward for the promised improvements in 4.8 and specially in 5.0
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby Robfuscate on Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:18 pm

Since I'm not a Linuxhead I have no opinion about Debian or Ubuntu as better or worse - but what is essential is to keep the flexibility and simplicity of the installation process. Mint is the only distro that I've ever tried which installs without fuss or bother on every machine I've installed it on - bar none. So, whatever you do, Debian Ubuntu LXDE base - keep that simplicity and flexibility for those of us who don't want to spend our lives tweaking!
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby HardyH on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:19 am

craig10x wrote:various extensions for gnome 3 enable one to make a gnome 3 desktop look just like the old ubuntu set-up, so i'd imagine it would be not too much of a problem for Clem to carry on with the usual mint style desktop as he has always had...only with gnome 3 instead of 2....and i would also imagine you'd be able to add in your bottom panel as you love linuxviolin... :lol:


Yeah, Various extentions, which might fail after the next removal of features will be introduced by the Gnome (S)hell team. You actually need to INSTALL tools first that allow you to change the smallest things to configure Gnome 3, most things anyway need to be done by editing some kind of registry (yay, Windows users will like this) , you need to press various buttons to make settings ( Am I a indian goddess with 4 arms to be able to press 3 keys plus a mouse button) , Gnome 3 lacks of usability because the Gnome 3 developers believe that everyone out there is not knowing what to do and needs to be stoopped to change Jon Mc Cann's dark retro style Touchscreen GUI into something that matches their flavour. Users who use more than one programme, uhm, pardon, app? Noone does this anymore, so they have made opening up programmes, uhm, apps, more difficult; icons instead of names, cause their targetted dumb users cannot read correctly anyway, not to speak of various instances of one and the same programme ( something that Toy Devices users never do).
Gnome has insulted every single user by assuming they are all I*itots, so this should be honored by not using their atrocity at all.
Gnome Shell? Made of dumbness? Just say: No, I am a mature user, your useless toy desktop was not made for me.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby xenopeek on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:17 am

HardyH :D You voiced my inner thoughts perfectly. Linux is one of my hobbies, and I want to be able to tinker and mess things up :lol: Don't give me something shiny :evil:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby craig10x on Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:08 am

HardyH...seems like Clem is a lot more optimistic then you are in regards to modifying gnome 3 to one's liking....
quote from Clem: "R&D started on Gnome 3. Although the new desktop is extremely different than what we’re aiming for, it looks extremely promising from a technical point of view and easy to modify and improve upon."

So although i understand your pessimism...i can only say i hope you are wrong about this...i'd hate to have to abandon gnome as it is my favorite desktop...
I don't care for XFCE and the other "lite" variations...and though i think KDE looks lovely, i find it much easier to work with gnome... :roll:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby NicolasRobidoux on Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:11 am

LMDE has been a disappointment in the stability department. (Rolling distro is fine in theory, not so hot in practice, at least in the experience of people around me.)

So I'd say keep following Ubuntu. They've been pretty good at putting out reasonably current packages that don't break too often.

-----

I trust that Clem will figure out a desktop setup usable without too much of a learning curve in a PC/laptop setting. I totally approve of what he did for Mint 11.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby craig10x on Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:22 am

I agree 100% I had the same experience with LMDE and also it is much more rough around the edges and not as polished as ubuntu based mint...
So, yes...definitely they should keep the ubuntu based version of mint...I liked the "rolling concept" of LMDE but it just isn't as reliable and requires too much tinkering and problem solving...No doubt that is why only about 5% of the Linux Mint User base is using it...The other 95% are still using the ubuntu based version...
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby xenopeek on Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:40 am

Clem's assessment of the GNOME 3 situation sounds based on fact. My opinion of GNOME 3 is based on working with it for some weeks on Fedora 15. I trust a future Linux Mint on GNOME 3 will give the kind of user experience I'm looking for :wink:
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby proxima_centauri on Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:46 am

HardyH wrote:Users who use more than one programme, uhm, pardon, app? Noone does this anymore, so they have made opening up programmes, uhm, apps, more difficult; icons instead of names, cause their targetted dumb users cannot read correctly anyway, not to speak of various instances of one and the same programme

You refer to the gnome-shell dock? If so, no there's no text (same as any other dock). Otherwise, the applications menu in gnome-shell has both icons and text. I'm not sure what you mean about the last past concerning multiple instances.

But as a happy GNOME3 user, I must be another "targeted dumb user" and an "idiot" for using such 'atrocious' software. :shock:

Kindly show some respect to developers, users and the community.


I think it would be interesting to see Linux Mint make some innovations and contribute it's own extensions to gnome-shell with GNOME3 to give us an revamped desktop that can be similar enough for the community to appreciate.
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby zerozero on Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:25 am

HardyH wrote:Yeah, Various extentions, which might fail after the next removal of features will be introduced by the Gnome (S)hell team. You actually need to INSTALL tools first that allow you to change the smallest things to configure Gnome 3, most things anyway need to be done by editing some kind of registry (yay, Windows users will like this) , you need to press various buttons to make settings ( Am I a indian goddess with 4 arms to be able to press 3 keys plus a mouse button) , Gnome 3 lacks of usability because the Gnome 3 developers believe that everyone out there is not knowing what to do and needs to be stoopped to change Jon Mc Cann's dark retro style Touchscreen GUI into something that matches their flavour. Users who use more than one programme, uhm, pardon, app? Noone does this anymore, so they have made opening up programmes, uhm, apps, more difficult; icons instead of names, cause their targetted dumb users cannot read correctly anyway, not to speak of various instances of one and the same programme ( something that Toy Devices users never do).
Gnome has insulted every single user by assuming they are all I*itots, so this should be honored by not using their atrocity at all.
Gnome Shell? Made of dumbness? Just say: No, I am a mature user, your useless toy desktop was not made for me.

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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby AlbertP on Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:34 am

You are all talking about Gnome Shell, but isn't it possible that Clem is working with Gnome 3 fallback mode instead of Gnome Shell?
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Re: Linux Mint 12, and beyond?

Postby craig10x on Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:05 pm

AlbertP..yes...it think they get confused because of unity and gnome shell, but in gnome 3 fallback mode, it gets reverted back to standard ubuntu style desktop and from there, why wouldn't Clem be able to customize it to the more familiar mint style?

So, i certainly would think that it should be possible to have gnome 3, in fallback mode and customized by Clem for Mint :)
Or am i missing something here?
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