Removal of out-of-box wireless support

[SsAnubis]

It's a shame I even need to post this but I simply could not let it slide again. Mint Team, seriously... your out of box wireless support once again has let me down. The past two LMDE both came with broken ndisgtk packages which would require one re-dkms and move the rebuilt module in order to interact with the GUI interface if they needed to use Windows XP drivers for a wireless card, but now for what ever reason Linux Mint 12 has several standard wireless driver sets (an example is Broadcom) removed from the default packages. Now, I know it's easy to get used to ones own surroundings and consider them to be the "Norm" for everyone else, but the fact of the matter it alot of people really do require out of box support for there wireless. It is not reasonable to expect that everyone should have access to a "hard wired" LAN connection so they can install the appropriate packages to use there home network/wireless access points. There really are alot of locations out there where there is no such thing as a personal LAN connection. This is not only true for rural areas or in "strange thrid world countries." Old cities such as New York, USA San Fransisco, USA London, England and an enormous list of others do not damage older buildings for the sake of internet connections. If you want internet you call your local provider and they supply you with an account for a local wireless access point. You can't run your computer to a nearby modem and download the modules to get your wireless that was just working on a previous distribution working again. How are you supposed to lend your distribution of Linux out to the masses if you remove support for such needs that you once provided out of box. Isn't that the very purpose of Mint in a nut shell? Out of box support for our daily needs? yYu can provide the newest and best flash support and top of the line video and audio codecs but you trim the fat on your drivers? If your already over the CD size limit then why trim a few measly kilobytes from your image that are so needed by the masses. I tried the latest Mint 12 image on several computers at work today and really was disappointed. Lenovo T60s, T61, X61, T400, T410, T420, a Dell that I don't recall the model of and an HP desktop with a Linksys Card. You know how many the wireless worked on? The T60s, T61, X61 and the T420. That's just... horrible. Your previous versions worked out of box on ALL these very same models. I admit I died a little on the inside today. I do not want this post taken as inflammatory nor do I have any desire to argue with members who feel Mint is infallible as I have in the past when pointing out problems I have run in to. I really, truly hope someone on the development team reads this and takes it to heart. This distro is close, oh so close to being at the top... don't let your original ideas get clouded. We come to Mint for out of the box perfection. Don't ruin it now.

[richyrich]

Yea, we have heard this many a time .

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=85134&p=492620#p492620
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=86150
viewtopic.php?f=197&t=57056&start=0

[SsAnubis]

Ah, I figured I wouldn't be the first to complain. I do not, however, see any official reasons posted by members of staff as to why this has changed (although this may just be the failing sight of an old man). I understand these are proprietary drivers, as I also understand this is the reason distros do not ship with video drivers from Nvidia or AMD/ATI... however these drivers for wireless HAVE shipped in the past. As a point of fact they are in the CURRENT LDME release. This leads me to believe they were trimmed for other reasons or simply forgotten. Anything from myself or other members is mere speculation in any case and I would like to see something official on this.

[richyrich]

Ask and ye shall receive - Section 5 : http://www.linuxmint.com/faq.php

Edit: Oh, check the second link, reply by Remoulder, the bcm drivers that are included are actually open source drivers, it's the bcm firmware that cannot be included.

[SsAnubis]

Thank you very much for that information. I do still find this a bit confusing as to why, then, the wireless works without any additional steps in prior distributions of Mint as well as other less Minty distros currenly available but not here in Mint 12. Has Broadcom recently changed a policy that has caused a conflicting legality issues? Does this mean older distros found here including the current LMDE and Mint KDE 10 will be removed from this site? I understand the part about proprietary software and intellectual properties, what I don't understand is why this only seems to affect Mint 12. My whole complaint here is based around the out-of-box issues this presents to this newest Mint distro, but was not an issue in LMDE past or present nor in Mint 10. I'm not entirely sure if this was a problem in Mint 11 as I did not like it (personal opinion).

[richyrich]

but was not an issue in LMDE past or present

good one, , and a good point to end my participation, good night and good luck.

[SsAnubis]

but was not an issue in LMDE past or present

good one, , and a good point to end my participation, good night and good luck.

Not sure I get the punch line but thanks for trying to help in any case. Would anyone else care to point me to any information as to why this only effects Mint 12? After that last comment by richyrich I admit I doubted myself so I threw LMDE back on my thumb drive and am posting from the Live installation, over wireless using the driver "rt2800pci." This is the HP desktop I mentioned in my first post that has a Linksys wireless card in it. There is absolutely no LAN connection to this PC as I need this system to be off our works network for security purposes. This machine runs LMDE from the 201109 image normally and as I just typed a moment ago is at this second running from the live install completely fine out-of-box. This once again raises my concern why the newest Ubuntu based distro does not do the same? These were only released a few months apart. Is this something new based on some initiative from companies like Broadcom? If it is does that mean we will lose support for our older Mint distros?

Edit:
Ah, I think I see the error I made in trying to communicate my concerns. I said this:

Linux Mint 12 has several standard wireless driver sets (an example is Broadcom) removed from the default packages.

I think this example should have been left out, as it seems to have been the focus the last few posts. This was intended only as an example. This was not my focus. Some Realtek drivers also do not work that previously did. Thats what the HP and the Dell I have here are using and they cannot connect using Mint 12, but can connect using LMDE. The Lenovo's use both Intel chipsets and Broadcom chipsets depending on the model of laptop, and the Intel based laptops can all connect without issues. The strange thing is even the laptops with Broadcom chipsets CAN connect with LMDE although having read some older posts I see there have been problems listed for Broadcom in the wireless section for LMDE, perhaps I am lucky? In any case support that used to be present is no longer there and that was the whole point of my posting here, which my post count will indicate I don't often do, thus I really did find this important. This is a niche distro, as all respins are. This is built off Ubuntu, the reason people pick it over Ubuntu's main line is typically for the better out-of-box experience. My concern is that some of that is gone and needs to be addressed.