Wine installed by default

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Re: Wine installed by default

Postby Fred on Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:03 am

Well, I can see how some people want Wine by default, but there are far more Linux users that don't use Wine than do.

There is a big difference between Wine and a codec. Wine is a full operating environment. It does have Windows security implications, occupies valuable space, and consumes cpu cycles. If you want a Wine environment on your computer that's fine. I just don't want it on mine.

For those that want Wine I have two suggestions:

1) Learn to install and use it. After a little study, it isn't really that hard.

2) Purchase CodeWeavers "CrossOver Linux" and install it. Nothing to do but click a few buttons with a mouse.

Enjoy life, :-)

Fred

EDIT: Discloser: I am not a Windows user. I have not used Windows for many years, except for projects for friends from time to time.
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

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Re: Wine installed by default

Postby sundayrefugee on Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:16 am

And, *please* do not label good Fred a *zealot* for his remarks. Users *are* allowed to prefer a Windows-free environment without such tripe ;) Thank you.
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Re: Wine installed by default

Postby hoppel on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:47 am

It's completely ok for me, that there are people who want a Windows free system - I belong to them myself but I need WINE for it... and I think that there es a misunderstanding: This thread isn't all about WINE, it's more about WINE-doors. But maybe my problems occur because that program is just buggy. So I have to wait for a better version.
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Re: Wine installed by default

Postby sundayrefugee on Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:41 am

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here - once you have wine, you don't have a Windows-free system. That's rather the whole point ;-) It's not an "emulator" like zsnes or something. Indeed, the recursive acronym of W.I.N.E. is a dead give-away - Wine Is Not an Emulator. Once you have wine installed, you have a *real* windows registry, etc....

But anyway - Clem has weighed in, wine is indeed easily available through MintInstall, and we all agree that no one should limit our right to use it if we wish to install it - and indeed, every effort is being made to make that task easy, which I applaud.

So, let's just agree to disagree on by-default, *agree* that wine-doors needs to be as easy as possible for newcomers, and leave it at that ;)
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Re: Wine installed by default

Postby kayakaholic on Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:32 pm

Erm isnt wine supposed to be included by default with Ubuntu Hoary? Will that mean that it will be included in Elyssa anyway? Or will the developers remove it?
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Re: Wine installed by default

Postby clem on Fri Mar 14, 2008 10:26 pm

Hi,

I didn't see any plans from Ubuntu to include it in Hardy. If that is the case their implementation will get reviewed and a decision will be made as whether we want to add it as well, or not. With every release of Ubuntu we look at their innovations and their new additions, we review them and we eventually add some of them to Mint.

The ideal solution for me would be if wine could act as a series of libs, a bit like Mono or QT. You install some Windows application, directly from the repo.. (I'm talking about freeware here of course) it's packaged as a deb, it depends on the wine-lib packages which get installed as well. No Wine entries in your menu, no config, nothing at all. Just the working result. You remove the application and its dependencies and everything is gone. Now if we could get that to work, that would be cool.

If you look at Picasa for instance, it comes packaged as a deb. The only problem is that it's staticly bundled with wine. If we had the same schema in a dynamic kind of way we'd make everyone happy.

Now having said that, that's food for thought for the Wine devs and for the devs of these Windows apps. I have no intention in spending too much time on this as I can't even think of any non-Linux application I actually miss under Linux (hmm.. ok, maybe there's Civilization and a few other games but they're not free...).

I can see the need for people making the move but honestly, the main reason I think people want to run windows software under Linux is simply because they're used to them and not comfortable enough with Linux yet.. it's only a matter of time before they make the move to better alternatives.. it's quite an opiniated statement I guess :)

Windows devs can't be bothered to port or at least package their app for Linux, and Linux devs can't be bothered to port or at least package windows apps for Linux. It's a fact the same way the editor has no interest in seeing the software run under Linux, most Linux users have no interest in running something that's not designed to integrate well with their environment.

I can see how this could be solved but I honestly don't see it happening. I mean who's going to put the efforts into this? Most people don't even like to run KDE apps under Gnome, no wonder Wine isn't that popular.

I will think about it though and I promised that if I could ease the process somehow without harming the Linux user's experience, I would make a little contribution to improving this under Mint.

Clem.
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Re: Wine installed by default

Postby ed@Mint on Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:23 pm

Hi,

Just another post to vote *against* wine being included in Mint. Here's my opinion :

I personally think that wine should not even exist. If i want to run a windows app, then i run windows.
I particularly want to insist on the fact that saying to a windows user (and linux ignorant)
"Hey, you should run linux instead of windows, it does everything and you can even install your windows apps on it"
is just a *big* mistake.

While the main argument for wine is about game playing, if i were that "windows user", i think it would go like this :
"if i can install windows games on linux, why wouldn't i install the programs i'm used to along with it ?"
Then, that user would end up running not only those games, but also Ms Office, internet explorer, windows media player, and so on...
I mean, what the hell is that ???

If the only reason for switching to linux is because nowadays you're "cool" when you say "M$ sucks, linux rulezzz" and stuff like that, then please don't bother...
It's great for linux to get an always growing amount of users, but i don't think this kind of user is helpful in anyway for linux.
To those who will tell me that it's because linux is free, i would say "did you really buy your version of windows ? did you really buy the games you wanna run with linux ?"
If i put money in to get a nice video game, then i want it to run nicely, without crashes or bugs, so i'll run it with windows, the OS it was made for, and not with wine (and risk getting eventual crashes or bugs etc...)
And to those who will speak about security, virus-free etc, it is just because hackers like to hack windows and not linux... Put the same amount of people doing viruses for windows at work on doing such for linux and you'll get the same results...

I am no anti-microsoft guy, if i'm running linux at this time, it is because it fits my needs. In fact, for me, the first reason why i use linux is because i'm in computer studies and i have to develop on both unix and windows platforms. And i think microsoft makes great products, for instance, i think linux still misses an IDE as powerful as Visual Studio, but as i said, i found something here that fits my needs and i would definitely never think about running Visual Studio using wine ! (if ever that would be possible)

Now, wine does exist, and i don't mean its developers aren't doing a great job working at it, but there are so many distributions that include it, if you want wine, just use those distros...

Well, i think this is long enough... :lol:
CU guys and enjoy yourselves
ed

edit: hoppel: don't take all this personally, but i think you raised a debate that had to be done once and for all... Viel Erfolg mit Linux und Wine :wink:
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Re: Wine installed by default

Postby sundayrefugee on Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:33 am

To be fair, the last time I tried Ubuntu Hardy, it was not installed by default, *nor is it going to be*.

However, and this is a biggie - the last time I tried *K*ubuntu Hardy, it *was* installed by default. I have been unable to get confirmation on wether this is going to be official or not :-(

So our good reader was partially correct, but Clem is still right in the Ubuntu proper does not, and is not, going to *ever* install wine by default. *Kubuntu*, the community KDE project, may yet prove to be a different matter.
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