More info about an eventual 64 Edition

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Postby linuxviolin on Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:35 am

hmm sorry if I seem a little 'stupid' but 4 GB of RAM??? :shock:
You really believe that many users here have much RAM?
People here are mostly home users who use their PC for their daily tasks. They are mostly about 1 GB of RAM (this is often what we have in PCs purchased in shops) and that is usually sufficient for their use...

So 4 GB, 8 GB??? Hey we are not here in an enterprise.
Do you really believe that a simple home user needs and will have 4 GB or more of RAM? :shock:

Of course there are always people who try to push their equipment with 'big' configurations (not always because they really need... :roll:) but we are here with Linux Mint, with home users 'playing' (no offense here, just an image to make me understand :wink:) with their computers... :D
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Postby clem on Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:40 am

Well the average now is 1GB and most gamers/enthusiasts have 2GB. Last year it was probably 512MB and most gamers/enthusiasts had 1GB. If tomorrow the software industry decides to make a great new games that takes a lot of resources (or a new OS like Vista for instance) then people will get more RAM....

It's not a problem for home users yet as very few people have more than 4GB of RAM, but it could become one in the years to come, and when that happens we'll have to follow and make sure we also have a 64bit edition.

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Postby linuxviolin on Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:08 am

Clem wrote:it could become one in the years to come, and when that happens we'll have to follow and make sure we also have a 64bit edition.

Yes maybe but I am not sure that before a certain time, people have really need that much RAM :)
could as you said... :lol:

the average now is 1GB and most gamers/enthusiasts have 2GB

OK OK, I'm not a 'gamer/enthusiast' but even for them there are excesses... :wink:

It's not a problem for home users yet as very few people have more than 4GB of RAM

I would rather say: very few people have 4 GB of RAM :lol:

Do you not think that we must curb this race to the 'growing' (one want to sell us as essential, inevitable, necessary [stupid thing]:evil:) and refocus on our real needs? (I hope that is good English, I'm sorry if not :( )

No flame here, it's just a philosophical (or what you want) question... :D

(Of course this also applies to many things in our society so-called 'modern' :wink: )
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Postby clem on Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:22 am

It's not up to us what people buy, it's up to us to make a 64bit edition though.. because the more people get computers with more than 4GB RAM the more people have excellent reasons not to use a 32bit OS.. and right now we can't offer these people anything.

I bought a Dell computer last month: Intel Core 2 Duo E400 with 2Ghz of RAM... it only cost me 373 euros. Most people put 1000 euros in their new computer so it won't be long before we see home users with 4GB of RAM...

It's just a market trend, nothing we can do about it. Now are we talking 1 year? 2 years? 4 years? I really don't know but what's for sure is that it will happen soon or later and when it does we'd better be ready.

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Postby linuxviolin on Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:53 am

Yes I understand this, I'm OK :D ...even though I do not agree with this race to the so-called 'needs' that one want us to 'swallow'.

we'd better be ready

Yes but that is absolutely necesssary? :roll:
The current PCs are probably already too 'powerful' for the real needs of the majority of users... :roll:

Great question: we should not resist to these endless and useless 'deluge/illusion of power' rather than enter into the whirlwind?

Where is our critical sense, our ability to think? Should we follow these people / businesses / billionaires who govern us and we handle? :twisted:

Resist brothers... :lol:

I'm sorry, that is not really relevant here, it's more political than computing and it' s a computing forum so I stop here. :D

P.S= again no flame here, just a few thoughts...
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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Postby poision on Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:30 am

Hi linuxviolin i am totally agree with clem.High ram will be our need so soon.Yes you are right our present pc are powerful enough but if softwares will demand high ram then you must have to upgrade yourself.As i posted on this thread that i ve amd64 processor but i was not using its full power,then when i planned to look fwd mint64 i came to know 64bit requirements.Its rule of computing buddy.So we have to go with world n keep updating thats it.Thanks
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Postby linuxviolin on Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:52 am

poision wrote:High ram will be our need so soon

Maybe but bad news. Linux catch up Windows? :evil: 'our need' or 'the needs that one wants us to believe'?

poision wrote:but if softwares will demand high ram then you must have to upgrade yourself

Maybe but it's not Vista here :lol: Also see above

poision wrote:i ve amd64 processor but i was not using its full power,then when i planned to look fwd mint64 i came to know 64bit requirements

OK but do you really need of its 'full power'? I mean for your real needs your PC is not quite enough, perhaps even too, powerful?
Again our current PCs are already too powerful for our real needs, they are already several years ahead of our real needs :roll:

Realistically speaking, 64-bit support is only truly useful in high end workstations and servers (neither of which Linux Mint is targeting)

poision wrote:we have to go with world n keep updating thats it

I understand that of course :D but should we not offer resistance against the 'nonsense'?

Use/develop Linux is/could/should not be also a political act?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9croissance_soutenable
(sorry it is in French, I have not found the english Wikipedia page :( [but I know it exits])
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Postby johnwillis on Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:59 am

well thanks for all replying to this topic so far. but i have to say I don't think that 4gb of ram is unreasonable. I will now explain my reasons.

I have just built a new pc. It cost less than £700 - which is not alot for people who want a PC to last at least 4-5 years.

For my money I got:

Quad Core Intel CPU with 8Mb Cache (Q6600)
4GB Corsair DDR2 Memory
2x250Gb Hard Drives in RAID 0
NVIDIA 8600GS
New Case
Corsair 520W Modular PSU
SATA DVDRW (NEC)
All hooked up to my flat screen, running Vista Ultimate and Linux under VM.

Now compare this to my "cheap" server.

ASUS barebones PC - £70
AMD Athlon CPU - £22
2GB Memory - £40-50
1x 500Gb Hard Drive - £50

So my kick-ass pc, that runs things like Video Editing and Photo Editing as well as 3D Studio Max SOOOOOOOOO well, it awesome and put it into comparision my first PC was only a 100Mhz CPU with 16Mb of memory and that cost over £1400!!!

Now my server (running Ubuntu) is a fantastic low end pc to sit there and store my files on all day. And it cost less than £300. This means that in the next 6-12 months people WILL be buying PC's with 4Gb Memory. And when that happens we will need to be ready.

The thing is, you might not use 4gb of memory every day, but chances are you'll be grateful of it when your editing your documents, editing video and trying to surf the net all at once. Your unlikely to need any more ever - unless your a server :)

So in short. I believe 4gb is the way to go, and more importantly. So will Dell, Acer and HP within 6-12 months.

-John
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Postby linuxviolin on Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:23 am

OK johnwillis I understand your arguments but I am not convinced :wink:

I don't think that 4gb of ram is unreasonable.

Me yes :lol:

chances are you'll be grateful of it when your editing your documents, editing video and trying to surf the net all at once.

hmm... :roll:

I believe 4gb is the way to go

I don't believe :)

This is a 'stupid' :P escalation in the power, consumerism etc, as in other aspects of our society :twisted: All this is 'nonsense', resistance :twisted:
Perhaps we should educate users rather than enter in this "game"... :idea:
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Albert Einstein)
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Postby grimdestripador on Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:37 pm

Plain and simple: you guys are crazy; somehow this turned into an OS argument.

My comment:
I have a 64 bit computer, and found 32 works better. (firefox plugins, mplayer support and all that jazz...) [based upon ubuntu an ubuntu64 6.10 expeiance]

I use Linux mint because it supports mp3s, flash, PDF, psd (GIMP) better than my windows or other linux os. I don't have a specific devotion to it, rather than it just works. I like your upgrade cycle.

I do believe that with the rise of flash memory, RAM with get larger even faster. I don't think there is some institutionalized machine the pressures people into buying more ram (linuxviolin) . I think people want more ram, so they can fill up their task bar with 5 instances of firefox each with 20 tabs buffering you-tube videos, while they edit their CMYK gimp files through a network server... In a situation like this, you don't want disk caching (ie swapping/paging), and you new processor will spend it cycles waiting for disk access

Point being, yes 64 bit will come., and yes 4Gb of DDR is only $120. Will it happen, yes. Should you wait till ubuntu 64 repository becomes a bit more usable.... maybe it already is.


I know, that with 1 gb of ram (Mint XFCE), my system gets slow after using office function editor. I use OOwriter and insert pages and pages of equations into the equation editor. After editing/inserting around 200 objects my system comes to a momentary hault for about 2 seconds each time I insert an additional object. Would 64 bits solve a problem like this? Would throwing more ram solve this. I don't think its OO being overloaded by a cryptic document, since it fixes itself after a restart.... Any ideas? This this just a problem of some "ram optimization" freeing up some overhead by disk caching.
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Postby silver on Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:34 am

I have a amd64.

I do video editiy and flash editing I love to chat and work on many other programs all at once.

I have two monitors conected and use them both.

I'd love a 64bit mint.

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Postby johnwillis on Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:24 pm

Ok, so the debate goes on but I'll say one thing...

My Quad Core C2D with 4gb of memory is working very well under Ubuntu 7.10.

My laptop, works well using Mint 3.1 32bit, all in all, it depends what you want from your PC/Server.

Like someone mentioned previously I enjoy using my PC to the max, using all my memory to make sure I never use my SWAP, which is soooo slow in comparison to RAM.

I am forever running in Pagefile under windows on my work pc. And it grinds to a halt.

Like I say, i don't agree that everyone needs 4gb of memory and 64bit, but it is useful if your needs demand it.. however I still feel that 2gb of memory is the minimum for a 32bit system.

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Postby linuxviolin on Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:19 pm

johnwillis wrote:i don't agree that everyone needs 4gb of memory and 64bit, but it is useful if your needs demand it..

The whole issue is here :wink:
Is that the majority of PC users do not use their PCs to surf the web, read their mails, watch movies, listen to music, etc.? Nothing that requires absolutely 4 GB of Ram... :roll:

Of course some people are asking for more for their computer, but one should really make a Mint version for a "small community" of users? Who target Mint? :)

grimdestripador wrote:I don't think there is some institutionalized machine the pressures people into buying more ram (linuxviolin)

I was talking in general, in our society, everything is linked. It can hardly denied consumerism of our society. (people purchasing goods or consuming materials in excess of their basic needs [Wikipedia])

And for "the institutionalized machine", hmm... maybe yes. :lol: (publicity, magazines, politicals, businesses etc)

Our whole society is built on always buy more, spend still even if you have no real need and do not think because you would be able to realize that all of this is "farce" and you rebelling :lol:

Don't misunderstand me, my words are a little provocative voluntarily to generate a discussion... :twisted: but perhaps this is not the place here... :wink:
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Postby grimdestripador on Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:00 am

You make some good general points, in a non combative way.

And for my comment against yours (ref: institutionalized), I was taking a the opposite extreme for a counter point, I like to make a round discussion and point out loop holes. The way you painted the article referred to consumerism in its negative only context. I belive there are positive outcomes to this mentality, non of which are good the 'teh planet'.

For the 4 GB of memory issue:
I think that the problem of ram being depreciated (is that was it is, inflation of Requirements to install). Is not just a result of the market pushers to get us to constantly buy the new and best (excessive heatsyncs, overclockability, and megabytes), but also a function of the code the programmers write in our new interpreted languages (refering to object and function overhead).
Ever run a simple terminal output for a Java web applet. See how much ram it takes up? Notice that Windows Vista has thumbnails, and properties for everything (like like window position in a desktop.ini file). Point being that programmers have less to deal with when they allocate more ram than they need, rather than meticulously streamlining the code. Create entire object arrays with creation overhead just to store a few variables.
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Postby poision on Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:10 pm

johnwillis wrote:Ok, so the debate goes on but I'll say one thing...

My Quad Core C2D with 4gb of memory is working very well under Ubuntu 7.10.

My laptop, works well using Mint 3.1 32bit, all in all, it depends what you want from your PC/Server.

Like someone mentioned previously I enjoy using my PC to the max, using all my memory to make sure I never use my SWAP, which is soooo slow in comparison to RAM.

I am forever running in Pagefile under windows on my work pc. And it grinds to a halt.

Like I say, i don't agree that everyone needs 4gb of memory and 64bit, but it is useful if your needs demand it.. however I still feel that 2gb of memory is the minimum for a 32bit system.

John

hi john yes its not like that all people should go for 64bit and 4gb ram.But here topic started with future.In future may be some application will come which ll require more ram.So they always set some std that only point stated here.I am also running ubuntu 7.10 64bit on my amd turion64 x2 laptop with 2gb ram.No problem at all.Thats it.
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Postby linuxviolin on Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:18 pm

grimdestripador wrote:Point being that programmers have less to deal with when they allocate more ram than they need, rather than meticulously streamlining the code. Create entire object arrays with creation overhead just to store a few variables.

YES so we must have better programmers! :lol:

But with things like the useless eye-candy Compiz/fusion, superkaramba etc... we use the power for 'stupid' things (no flame here) :wink: :D
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Re: More info about an eventual 64 Edition

Postby johnwillis on Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:27 pm

So come on then.... is this still raging on...

I can honestly say that unless you have a need for lots of RAM and 64bit it's not worth upgrading, however if you are in the sort of mind-frame to buy a new PC then go Quad and go 4Gb, because believe me, in the long run you'll be glad.

The thing you have to remember is that people will eventually demand more and more from a PC (and remember what that stands for.... Personal Computer....) so we're almost expecting PC's to compete with servers these days.

I won't get onto the topic of stability of 64bit Linux because in my experience I have seen no major issues, it runs as well as my 32bit, just handles really CPU/RAM intensive tasks better (in my opinion).

But I will arch back to the very starting point of this thread now... Version 4.X is out now... I still see no 64bit version - does anyone have any idea when it'll be released?

I really really really want to convert my Quad Core 64Bit to Mint instead of a Ubuntu Flavor, but I won't loose my 64bit!

Also if everyone hasn't already, if you really really love Mint! Please please donate to this amazing project. I donated $15 - thats £10GBP roughly. It's not much but it makes Clem's, etc lives so much easier knowing they can actually spend more of their time on Mint than going out working to pay the bills, etc.

Plus I love how the customised Mint tools work. Amazing.

Anyway, I am rambling,

Have A Nice Day Guys

John
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Re: More info about an eventual 64 Edition

Postby jg on Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:17 am

Wow. I never thought I'd see a linux developer who is not totally blinded by anti-everything-associated-with-Microsoft, and actually has the sense to objectively look at what Windows does, and pilfer whatever good ideas he sees. This is definitely not Ubuntu. That's encouraging.

I have 8 gig in one of my PCs and 4 gig in another. Both have Core 2 Duo CPUs (ie, 64-bit CPUs). One reason I haven't given Linux Mint a test drive is the lack of a 64-bit version. (It would be replacing the Ubuntu 64-bit version).

64-bit CPUs, such as Core2 Duo, have about twice as many registers as a 32-bit CPU. When you use an OS, and apps, compiled for a 32-bit CPU, the software doesn't use any of those extra registers, even when run on a 64-bit CPU. When you compile the OS/apps as 64-bit, the compiler uses those extra registers. That's one of the reasons why a 64-bit OS, running 64-bit apps, can run faster (than 32-bit OS/apps) on a 64-bit CPU. In particular, CPU-intensive apps really benefit from being compiled 64-bit. Those extra registers really help.

Also, if you have more than 3 gig of memory, you'll want a 64-bit OS. That's because both Windows and Linux 32-bit kernels separate a 4 gig address space into 2 gig for the kernel, and 2 gig for an app. So under a 32-bit OS, an app can use 2 gig at most. (Well, there is an "extension" that gets around this limitation, but it vastly slows down your system).
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Re: More info about an eventual 64 Edition

Postby poision on Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:44 am

hey as per new newletter 64bit mint ll be fedora base...is it true...?clem make 64bit on regular mint platform too..
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Re: More info about an eventual 64 Edition

Postby linuxviolin on Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:49 am

jg wrote:I have 8 gig in one of my PCs and 4 gig in another. Both have Core 2 Duo CPUs (ie, 64-bit CPUs).

4 gig? 8 gig??? Are you crazy? :lol:
Perhaps it is for a "professional" purpose but what is the simple home user who really has need as much RAM for his/her daily tasks?
Today it's something like science fiction... (and we are with Linux, not the 'resource eater' Vista)

jg wrote:if you have more than 3 gig of memory, you'll want a 64-bit OS

Me, and the most of home users (the Mint target), have not need of 3 gig of memory...
Even the 64-bits CPU are not absolutely necessary for current simple home use... Maybe in the future...

Go to the "décroissance"
K.I.S.S. ===> "Keep It Simple, Stupid"
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