why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

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why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby gnopak on Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:22 am

mintupdate shows upgrade to linux-image-generic from 2.6.32.22.23 to 2.6.32.22.24 as level 5 Dangerous packages. However "aptitude full-upgrade" offers to upgrade the kernel. I always used "aptitude full-upgrade" on Kubuntu but with Mint I am confused. Why does mintupdate discourage the minor kernel update?
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby axel668 on Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:51 am

Unlike Ubuntu, Mint Updater is estimating the risk involved with updates. Kernel updates are generally high risk, because if something goes wrong you can mess up your system pretty bad, so Mint Updater doesn't apply that kind of updates by default.
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby gnopak on Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:42 pm

axel668 wrote:Unlike Ubuntu, Mint Updater is estimating the risk involved with updates. Kernel updates are generally high risk, because if something goes wrong you can mess up your system pretty bad, so Mint Updater doesn't apply that kind of updates by default.


That is a shocker. I honestly believed that the mint team found some specific problem with this specific upgrade.

Strange blanket rule. I have never ever had any issues with kernel upgrades when using distro kernels, be it Mandriva, Kubuntu or RedHat. An upgrade from 2.6.32.22.23 to 2.6.32.22.24 is most likely a minor one, possibly with security fixes. Is it not more dangerous NOT to upgrade?
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby libssd on Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:15 pm

Since Grub gives you a choice of at least 1 previous kernel, I don't see any significant risks to kernel upgrade. My gut feeling is that Mint is aimed more at newbies, and Ubuntu has a little more technical user base (maybe just because it's just bigger), so the Ubuntu community may be less risk averse.

I have experienced kernel dependency issues, which were very subtle, and were not revealed until I tried to do a restore from a Remastersys backup -- NOT a good time to discover that your most recent backup is unusable. Booting from an earlier kernel resolved the problem with Remastersys.
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby Brian49 on Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:32 pm

gnopak wrote: That is a shocker.

It shouldn't be, really; the thinking behind the Mint kernel-updating policy has been well covered in several previous threads on this forum.
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby axel668 on Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:03 pm

gnopak wrote:That is a shocker

What kind of problems do you have with kernel 2.6.32.22 ? Or more precisely, what problems that are fixed in kernel 2.6.32.23 ? And if you really want the new kernel, what's hindering you from doing an apt-get dist-upgrade ?
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby altair4 on Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:08 pm

libssd wrote:My gut feeling is that Mint is aimed more at newbies, and Ubuntu has a little more technical user base (maybe just because it's just bigger), so the Ubuntu community may be less risk averse.

You wouldn't know that from their forums :lol:

When you read a heated debate on the best way to change permissions, chmod 0777 or chown user:user between members with thousands of beans and all those cappuccino's ( or whatever they are ) - on an NTFS partition - you leave not being very impressed.
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby linuxviolin on Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:37 pm

libssd wrote:Since Grub gives you a choice of at least 1 previous kernel, I don't see any significant risks to kernel upgrade.

Yes, the last kernel(s) is always there after the update so if you have some problems with the new kernel just reboot and choose the previous kernel which worked. So no risk.

gnopak wrote:I have never ever had any issues with kernel upgrades when using distro kernels, be it Mandriva, Kubuntu or RedHat.

Idem for me. I never had and have no problems with kernel updates in other distros (Debian Testing, Parsix, CentOS, Fedora, Gentoo, Frugalware...), and on several computers, but with Ubuntu (when I used Ubuntu) yes, one or two times, although nothing very serious, so in Mint, we must be careful... Hey, it's Ubuntu! :roll: :twisted:

altair4 wrote:you leave not being very impressed.

Yes. On their forums sometimes you can find full of false help, comments or hints and sometimes even false solutions to the problems... Really, sometimes Ubuntu people are just plain "stupid" and misinformed. You should not have this in the Mint forum. :D
Last edited by linuxviolin on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby gnopak on Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:48 pm

axel668 wrote:What kind of problems do you have with kernel 2.6.32.22 ? Or more precisely, what problems that are fixed in kernel 2.6.32.23 ? And if you really want the new kernel, what's hindering you from doing an apt-get dist-upgrade ?


I have no specific problems. There is no change log so even if I had specific problem I would have no way of knowing if this update addresses such problem. I cannot guess the reason for the update. Minor kernel updates tend to be security related, so with no changelog I must assume that this is a security update. Hence I am going to run aptitude full-upgrade.
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby grimdestripador on Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:02 pm

If you are runnign tools from a GUI, you should have GUI tools to fix it. Since if a kernel update goes wrong, you'll be stuck at command line, it makes a lot of since to classify this as "5" risk. Thus to update your kernel you must allow level "5" or actually type in sudo apt-get dist-upgrade, and be ready to enter grub commandline... ... this kind of stuff is for an administrator, not just someone who just happens to be a sudoer and does a mintUpdate.
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby gnopak on Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:22 am

grimdestripador wrote:this kind of stuff is for an administrator, not just someone who just happens to be a sudoer and does a mintUpdate.


Thanks, your explanation clarifies the thinking behind level 5 classification for kernel updates.
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby linuxviolin on Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:18 am

grimdestripador wrote:Since if a kernel update goes wrong, you'll be stuck at command line, it makes a lot of since to classify this as "5" risk..

Yes, you're right but this is really a big problem? Like I said in my previous post if after the reboot in the new kernel you have some problems, just reboot and choose the previous kernel which worked. (the update doesn't remove the old kernel) So... it's not a big deal. But I agree to give a warning about kernel updates although sometimes it is necessary to update (security issue for instance)

But ok, here it's Ubuntu so... :roll: :mrgreen:
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Re: why mintupdate discourages kernel upgrade?

Postby Lantesh on Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:13 pm

gnopak wrote:Why does mintupdate discourage the minor kernel update?


Because there is a risk of something going wrong. A new user would probably not be able to fix things if something went wrong, so kernel updates are not offered by default, and more experienced users know how to apply the kernel updates if they want them anyway.
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