is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

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is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby LISABLUEANGEL on Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:32 am

i heard that microsoft is banning people from putting linux on a brand new windows 8 based pc. plz tell me this isnt true! :evil:
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby kc1di on Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:37 am

LISABLUEANGEL wrote:i heard that microsoft is banning people from putting linux on a brand new windows 8 based pc. plz tell me this isnt true! :evil:


Well it's true that M.S. will require all Manufacturers who want to certify their machine to have UEFI enabled in place of Bios. UEFI requires a signin signature that is unique to each operating system. So effectively you would only be able to boot to windows on a windows certified system with the purchase of a sign in key for your particualar O.S.

Some O.S. have announced how they are going to handle this Fedora will pay a fee to verisign for a key. but that effectively will only allow Fedora on the Machine. I'm not sure if dual boot with windows will be possible. Here is a page with Fedora's answer :

http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html

Here is a page that explains how UEFI works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface

Here's a page that discusses Ubuntu's answer - I'm not sure how this will effect Mint.

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Canonical-details-Ubuntu-UEFI-Secure-Boot-plans-1624444.html

All in all it will be a new world as UEFI hardware arrives and different distributions handle it in differing ways. The days of easy install and dual boots may be more of a challenge in the future. The trade off I guess is supposed to be a major improvement in Malware protection.

I'm sure others with more knowledge will chime in and we will all have a better Idea of what will be happening.
In all fairness it's not quite time to panic yet :)
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby mintybits on Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:50 am

"Quantal Quetzal" ???? Shutleworth's condition is worse than I thought. :lol:
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby marsh20 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:03 am

Would dual booting with a second HDD be an way round it?
Think about the "undo" before you "do".
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby mintybits on Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:18 am

Isn't it the case that UEFI secure booting is a motherboard firware option that can be disabled?
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby kc1di on Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:18 am

marsh20 wrote:Would dual booting with a second HDD be an way round it?

It may but I believe you will have to have both keys one for windows HD and one for the Linux OS HD.
How that will be handled by each Linux Distribution will be the question. It may cost the OP to get the key.
Don't think we really know all the answers yet.
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby mintybits on Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:37 am

While Microsoft have modified their original position and all x86 Windows machines will be required to have a firmware option to disable this or to permit users to enrol their own keys, it's not really an option to force all our users to play with hard to find firmware settings before they can run Fedora. We've been working on a plan for dealing with this.
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby kc1di on Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:41 am

here's another page that may be of interest. Mark's comments on why Ubuntu will drop Grub2 going forward.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/06/shuttleworth_responds_uefi/

I'm sure there will much more discussion of this going forward , for now I'll stick to my older hardware machines.
I haven't heard anything about how Mint will handle this yet. I'm not sure if Ubuntu's keys will be usable on Mint or not.
Sure we will find out in the month ahead.
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby Oscar799 on Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:57 am

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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby steev on Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:48 am

mintybits wrote:Isn't it the case that UEFI secure booting is a motherboard firware option that can be disabled?


Yes, on x86 hardware we can disable it or add our distro's custom key, which they can purchase for $99.
That might be a problem for small distros or people who like to compile their own kernels, but as long as this secure boot can be disabled I'm not too worried about it.

Here's what Linus has to say about it
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/20 ... cure-boot/
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby /dev/urandom on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:17 am

steev wrote:Yes, on x86 hardware we can disable it or add our distro's custom key, which they can purchase for $99.

AFAIK this is also valid for x86_64 machines; basically, only ARM devices are "locked".
Which is also the case with iOS and most common Android devices by the way.
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby steev on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:03 am

/dev/urandom wrote:
steev wrote:Yes, on x86 hardware we can disable it or add our distro's custom key, which they can purchase for $99.

AFAIK this is also valid for x86_64 machines; basically, only ARM devices are "locked".
Which is also the case with iOS and most common Android devices by the way.


That's right, sorry, I meant to include x86_64 too.
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby linuxviolin on Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:12 pm

I guess all of this about UEFI and Secure Boot is just FUD. Allow me here to just copy some other posts:

It is really hard to believe for me how widespread the FUD, coming from uninformed bloggers (or bloggers that intentionally spread FUD to get more clicks on their site) is in reality:
I would recommend to think about following facts:

1. Many governments, especially in Europe, Russia, China and India, are using Linux and open source software for their own systems. How likely is it that they will support a system that would lock their software out?

2. Microsoft is not implementing the hardware part of Secure Boot. There are even efforts from Intel developers, they are working on an open source version of UEFI, including Secure Boot. What tells us this? Microsoft does not control your hardware.

3. As I have stated many times before: The Windows 8 Logo program requires for x86 hardware that there has to be an option to disable Secure Boot and that there must be options for the user to add their own custom keys to it and remove the Microsoft keys. Hardware that does not fulfill these requirements simply does not get the Logo.
So Microsoft is actively pushing the hardware manufacturers to make it possible to use other OSes.

Again, I wonder why this is so hard to understand: If you don't want to use Secure Boot just disable it. No hack needed at all.

You want to be able to install the Linux distro of your choice on your x86 mainboard? Then make your homework and buy hardware that let you disable Secure Boot or add your own keys. Surprisingly, you will find that you get this option guaranteed only with hardware that has the Windows 8 logo.

Just read the requirements for getting the Windows 8 logo.
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby GarryRicketson on Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:39 pm

I am not sure I completely understand this, but from the way I see it, it sounds like MS(microsoft) is trying it's hardest to create a monopoly, it has always seemed that way, but isn't that illegal,it used to be anyway. I guess it is because they can not come up with any realy reliable OS and most of they're software is pretty lame too, so the only way, to stay in buisness would be to eliminate any competition.
If I want to buy a new computer I will only buy one that I can format, and install whatever OS I choose, and with out have to buy special "hardware" or "keys" or whatever,...I find it hard to believe lawmakers would permit this, so I suspect it is just a "rumor",...
Once I got rid of WindowsXP,and all it's malware, this little laptop runs nice, never any problems, so maybe I will never need a new computer!
Guess that is all from me ,I hope this is not true,just rumors,
It is really hard to believe for me how widespread the FUD, coming from uninformed bloggers (or bloggers that intentionally spread FUD to get more clicks on their site) is in reality:
I would recommend to think about following facts:
I agree, I think, these people, that don't know anything else, except what Windows and FaceBook, gives them, are not very reliable sources of anything, Unrelaible OS,+unreliable software,+unreliable social networks= disaster, lots if unreliable information,people,etc.
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is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby animaguy on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:03 pm

there is a possibility it will backfire.

Linux software is evolving.

There will be a market for non MS firmware and its implementation

There will be a market for workaround UEFI secure boot
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby caf4926 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:57 pm

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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby 3fRI on Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:39 am

One way to avoid this issue by building your next PC, which is what I plan to do. Of course, you can purchase purchase a desktop or laptop with Linux pre-installed from a variety of vendors or you can purchase a refurbished PC without Windows 8. Personally, since I'm not a gamer, my needs are modest: e-mail, browser, and only essential apps to keep everything lean and clean. :mrgreen:
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is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby animaguy on Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:41 am

3fRI,

this is what I am saying. UEFI secure boot will force Linux users to buy computers with linux preinstalled.

and building your own computers will be less expensive with non secure boot motherboards because windows users will abandon them.

and this only assumes that hackers wont find a way to workaround the secure boot.

the only thing the secure boot is good for is for the ms certification which is warranty related. once the warranty is ended the secure boot is fair game for the hacker and replacing or hacking the firmware will be an exercise in software reverse engineering.

No proprietary company has the power to stop that from happening.

There are a lot of options available.

Win8 is going to have to be a mind blowing desktop or I see this as a disaster in the making for MS.
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Re: is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby linuxviolin on Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:21 pm

animaguy wrote:this is what I am saying. UEFI secure boot will force Linux users to buy computers with linux preinstalled.

and building your own computers will be less expensive with non secure boot motherboards because windows users will abandon them.

Again, there is no absolute need for this. If you buy some PC win8 certified, with the Windows 8 Logo, you should not have some problems. The Windows 8 Logo program on x86 is clear. Re-read my last post.
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is it true that you wont be able to put linux on a pc?

Postby animaguy on Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:44 pm

I havent done a lot of research on the aubject vut if you can disable secure boot manually then problem solved.
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