Investing in Linux

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Investing in Linux

Postby mintero on Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:41 pm

Hi,
I would like to know your opinions about investing in linux. Do you believe that linux has a good future for home users and professionals?
Do you have any good ideas for business?
Does anyone look for collaboration?
Do you think that Mint Professional could be a good project?
I can invest 50k €. I have marketing skills, I am linux user since three years but dont have technical knowledge.

Thanks in advance
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Postby frank392 on Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:02 pm

Hi
you may use Paypal and make a donation to Mint Linux :wink:
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Postby clem on Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:01 am

mintero: to be brief, I believe Linux is the only operating system that has a future for personal computing. It might take a while but it will eventually become the standard. My personal opinion.
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Postby zolly on Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:26 pm

There are some problems:
1) no hardware support from producers
2) software doesn't coverage all domains (home, games, ...)
3) some good distro will become commercial (free but with limitations)
4) fear that the linux is to difficult to learn and to use
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Postby AlsaPhil on Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:21 am

Clem said:

(...) I believe Linux is the only operating system that has a future for personal computing (...)

I believe it too, when the Linux dev begin finally to listen what user wanna have on their PC.
I believe, besides, in relative little, 100%_flexible and more or less self-sufficient communities with own brand and interests.
I believe, therefore, in LinuxMint, which is on the right "political" way :D

zolly said:

There are some problems:
1) no hardware support from producers
2) software doesn't coverage all domains (home, games, ...)
3) some good distro will become commercial (free but with limitations)

:?:

and
4) fear that the linux is to difficult to learn and to use

That is definitely wrong: from the user's side, Linux is much more logical, intuitive and intelligent where Microsoft shows more and more an illogical logic.
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Postby npap on Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:39 am

I would add one more problem to Zolly's list. :)
Linux is lacking in the Spyware, Malware. and other Warez.

Quote: some good distro will become commercial (free but with limitations)
Answer: Why not Linux Mint? :) :) :)
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Postby scorp123 on Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:54 am

zolly wrote: There are some problems:
1) no hardware support from producers

Not correct. NVidia, ATI, Intel, AMD, SUN, HP, IBM, Linksys ... are all providing fully supported drivers for Linux, or in the cases of IBM, HP, SUN and Intel and many others they are even constantly contributing to the Linux kernel itself. Others will have to follow sooner or later. Companies such as Linksys use Linux on their router products (e.g. the now famous WRT-54G series!) and even allow you to "hack" their products, expand and even replace the firmware with alternatives of your choice.

zolly wrote:2) software doesn't coverage all domains (home, games, ...)
Please be specific. I use Linux since 1996 at home. So I guess I have been missing something? :lol: For games here and there I use a Windows partition, but all serious work is done on Linux and only on Linux. Besides, let's be honest: If you really want a gaming experience without hassles, without usability and user-friendliness issues, without bluescreens and driver problems, then there is hardly an alternative to a real game console, e.g. Nintendo Wii (which is a lot of fun for families) or Sony PS2 / PS3 and --dare I say it?-- Micro$oft Xbox 360 ... The PC as gaming platform is way too expensive and the constant hardware upgrade frenzy means that you constantly would have to spend a lot of money in order to keep your PC up-to-date. That just plain sucks. Look at the PS2. How old is it now? And still you can get new games for it that work just perfect and that are hassle-free and a lot of fun.

zolly wrote: 3) some good distro will become commercial (free but with limitations)
Please be more specific. All the commercial distros out there are commercial because they (had to) include proprietary stuff which cannot be redistributed for free (e.g. Active Directory integration, Windows Domain logon integration, etc.) but these things are only interesting to classic corporate users which are still thinking of Linux as a "different" sort of Windows ... which is plain wrong in my opinion. Linux is not Windows.


zolly wrote: 4) fear that the linux is to difficult to learn and to use
That's FUD and nonsense. It's only "difficult" for you because you can't let go of your DOS and Windows way of thinking. Total noobs who have never been exposed to Windows before find it very easy to get around a UNIX-like OS such as Linux. Yes it's complex, of course it is. But it is very logic, there is help if you know how to invoke it (e.g. the "man" commands) and even if you cause any error, the error message you get is very precise in its description of the problem. And if you give a total noob (e.g. my wife!) a easy to use GUI that they can configure any way they like (KDE in my wife's case!) they will never ever even see the complexity of the shell commands underneath. They just login, and everything just works. I setup my wife's desktop in 2003 when we got married and the machine is still working. No viruses, no malware, no spyware, no fragmentation to worry about. All I have to do here and there is to update the packages, that's it.

I fail to see where the difficulties are?


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Re: Investing in Linux

Postby scorp123 on Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:00 am

npap wrote:I would add one more problem to Zolly's list. :)
Linux is lacking in the Spyware, Malware. and other Warez.
Not true! :evil: You can fully contribute to the pool of zombie machines running spam bots if you run Windows in a VirtualBox or VMware environment. Thanks to this you can run any spyware and spam bot you (don't) want even on Linux machines. Some viruses are reported to run successfully even under WINE, CrossOver Office and Cedega. The only problem right now is that they cannot harm the operating system because under WINE et al there are no Windows operating system files to be infected. But thanks to the efforts of Novell's and Microsoft's cooperation I expect that this problem will soon be solved too and we Linux users will be able to enjoy widespread virus infections on Novell's Linux products as well ...

I am just kidding of course :lol:
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Postby npap on Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:07 am

Hello Scorp123,
Nobody could have done it better :) Not even a lawyer!
Brrrrrr! I am already itching all over with all the bugs around.
But I hope that Clem will find a good disinfectant for us poor Linux Mint users :)
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Postby mintero on Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:18 am

zolly wrote:There are some problems:
1) no hardware support from producers
2) software doesn't coverage all domains (home, games, ...)
3) some good distro will become commercial (free but with limitations)
4) fear that the linux is to difficult to learn and to use

1. Many companies (HP, Lexmark, Epson etc) have products compatible with linux. In the future they will have more and more. Even today this is not a major probleme. If the common user were convinced that linux is better than windows they would spent money to replace their incompatible device; they already give money for windows software.

2. As for the coverage, I think that it's really the case for games but not for anything else.

3. Is this a problem? Would the new linuxians (ex-windowsians) have a problem with this while they already pay Microsoft and its partners? And Windows is a standard today. Linux, even paid, could become a less expensive standard.

4. Here I agree. Linux even with its recent user-friendly distros seem easy, but is isnt. The problem is not the OS itself, but the linux mentality that is still past-oriented. This is the real problem.
Example:
I said to a developer: "there is no superuser mode entry to edit system files".
He laughed: "no, that is not a probleme. The user has just to hit: sudo gedit filename"
He was a good developer but not a good marketer. For 21 century's modern and ordinary people the terminal is archaeology. For me, the terminal should be used only for diagnostic purposes.

Linux is not intuitive. Tell a newbie ordinary user to install a linux distro and complete it with what is needed for his/her home use needs without reading manuals and posting to forums for help. It will be the hell for them with apps without GUI or menu entry, technical language, multicomponent apps, securing the system, editing system files, partitions and mountpoints etc
It takes much time to learn how to manage this system well. So, while it is a good OS, it is not very attractive for the ordinary user.

Some may disagree with me, but i prefer to see the reality face to face. Windows wins about 95% for home use and linux about 1%. OK, Windows comes pre-installed, but who prevents you from installing linux if you like it?

I have being doing my little survey because i am interested as investor. My conclusions for the present are frustrating. Linuxians live in their dreamland. Without a rigorous marketing strategy I dont see how linux can become a popular OS with the ambition to be one day a standard. Its superiority is proven in the server market where it beats Windows. Unfortunately the home users are not network admins.The solution is a simple, intuitive out-of-the-box edition.

If I find a distro that my grand-mother is able to understand and manage, I will believe that this situation can really change.
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Postby AlsaPhil on Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:50 am

Some may disagree with me


YES
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Postby AlsaPhil on Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:08 am

@mintero (no I don't troll)

I can invest 50k €. I have marketing skills, I am linux user since three years but dont have technical knowledge
...and no business idea :lol:

If I find a distro that my grand-mother is able to understand and manage, I will believe that this situation can really change
...begin here :wink: may be you are on the right way (I am very serious)

Begin to think deeply about all you say here and/or here...

Marketing skills = analysis, reflection, tests, management talent and a lot of experience :wink:

Without a rigorous marketing strategy I dont see how linux can become a popular OS with the ambition to be one day a standard
... should be a very bad marketing positioning for Linux :lol:
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Postby mintero on Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:26 pm

AlsaPhil wrote:@mintero (no I don't troll)

I can invest 50k €. I have marketing skills, I am linux user since three years but dont have technical knowledge
...and no business idea :lol:

I have being elaborated a business idea about linux. That doesnt prevent me from asking for other people's. They may have better ones.

If I find a distro that my grand-mother is able to understand and manage, I will believe that this situation can really change
...begin here :wink: may be you are on the right way (I am very serious)

Mint is a passionate adventure. I like it and have installed it on my personal computer, but not on my professional one. There the criteria are more strict.
Mint (at least at this moment) doesnt have a long term strategy. Of course nothing is excluded for the future. It is up to its developers...

Begin to think deeply about all you say here and/or here...

Marketing skills = analysis, reflection, tests, management talent and a lot of experience :wink:

Without a rigorous marketing strategy I dont see how linux can become a popular OS with the ambition to be one day a standard
... should be a very bad marketing positioning for Linux :lol:

Is there something that makes you presume i am an inexperienced adolescent? I am a 44-year-old businessman and if our opinions about positionning are different never mind. :)
Yes, I think that a rigorous strategy is needed if you want to have results. From booting up till shutdown everything must be carefully examined so that the user doesnt have headaches. The language should be change. Why say: "this package is available today, hit: sudo apt-get install package" and not say "this package is available today in your synaptic" ? Standalone apps without gui or obsolete gui must be of limited use. Boring long-page manuals and wikis must be simplified. Confusing terms must be banned: the user doesnt care about " multiverse, restricted, backports etc" but about "free, non-free, stable, testing" Employees, collaborators and revendors ( in a company project) must respect a linux behavior protocole, etc

You manage a project or you dont manage it. I dont like bazaar. At my age I dont need to do my personal revolution, or search an identity or religion in linux.
Business plans must be rigorous in order to be succesful. Of course, this is my personal opinion.
Last edited by mintero on Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby npap on Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:56 pm

What's the matter with you guys! :)
You think that Greeks are only good in the restaurant business?

My God ! Who do you think built the Parthenon?
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Postby AlsaPhil on Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:03 pm

:lol:

You manage a project or you dont manage it. I dont like bazaar. At my age I dont need to do my personal revolution, or search an identity or religion in linux.
Business plans must be rigorous in order to be succesful. Of course, this is my personal opinion


and I respect per ethics your opinion, mintero, but your dissertation definitely do not deal with the subject :lol:
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Postby scorp123 on Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:59 pm

mintero wrote: I said to a developer: "there is no superuser mode entry to edit system files".
He laughed: "no, that is not a probleme. The user has just to hit: sudo gedit filename"
He was a good developer but not a good marketer. For 21 century's modern and ordinary people the terminal is archaeology.
That's were you are wrong. Typical Windows "point and click" mind set. But even if: here on openSUSE 10.2 I have a menu entry saying "Open FileManager in super user mode". I don't know if that menu entry is present in Mint, Ubuntu, etc. or if it isn't. But it's there on some distros. So you can have your point and click stuff as super user if you want to. But you don't get the point: Starting GUI programs such as a File Manager as "root" is *dangerous*
... UNIX-like operating systems are not babysitting you. You are supposed to know what you do. So if by accident you do a drag & drop as "root" it's bye bye Kansas for your system.

Using the terminal commands is safer! And more powerful too!

This has nothing to do with "archaelogogy".


mintero wrote: For me, the terminal should be used only for diagnostic purposes.
Maybe you'd be better off with an Apple computer and Mac OS X? Or even Winoze Vi$ta? Nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to use Linux, you know :wink:


mintero wrote: Linux is not intuitive.
Au contraire, it is!

mintero wrote: Tell a newbie ordinary user to install a linux distro and complete it with what is needed for his/her home use needs without reading manuals and posting to forums for help.
And this proves what? Nothing. You can do the same experiment with Windows. Most users wouldn't know frak about how to install Windows if it wasn't already (by misuse of Microsoft's monopoly) pre-installed for them.

The only OS a real noob can hope to successfully install without knowing anything seems to be Mac OS X.


mintero wrote: It will be the hell for them with apps without GUI or menu entry, technical language, multicomponent apps, securing the system, editing system files, partitions and mountpoints etc
It takes much time to learn how to manage this system well. So, while it is a good OS, it is not very attractive for the ordinary user.
Not true. It's just a matter of picking the right distro which should come with some sane defaults.

mintero wrote: Some may disagree with me
Some?? :wink:

mintero wrote: but i prefer to see the reality face to face. Windows wins about 95% for home use and linux about 1%. OK, Windows comes pre-installed, but who prevents you from installing linux if you like it?
Nobody. And that's why those figures you quote are to be taken "cum grano salis". Nobody can really know how many of those systems that originally had Windows pre-installed get formatted again to make room for Linux.

HP just recently reported that they made an astonishing profit of 25 million dollars by supporting the free Debian distribution. Now there is food for thought ...

mintero wrote: I have being doing my little survey because i am interested as investor. My conclusions for the present are frustrating.
You have to free yourself from your current mindset of thinking. That's your problem, not the problem of the "Linuxians"

mintero wrote: Linuxians live in their dreamland.
Aren't we all entitled to our dreams?

mintero wrote: Without a rigorous marketing strategy I dont see how linux can become a popular OS with the ambition to be one day a standard.
It doesn't have to. Contrary to what some believe the goal of Linux is not to overtake the world or to become a "popular OS". People don't use it out of this motivation. They use it because they like it, because it is free, because it works, because it doesn't tell them what they can do and what they can't do. The rest will come all alone by itself. Or maybe it won't. It does not matter. If you want to invest in Linux because you hope to become rich one day it is you who lives in dreamland, not us :lol:

mintero wrote: Its superiority is proven in the server market where it beats Windows. Unfortunately the home users are not network admins.The solution is a simple, intuitive out-of-the-box edition.
With "intuitive" you mean "dumbed down"? Well, there is Linspire, there is Xandros, and some others. Did the "intuitiveness" of those distros help them become popular? No, it didn't. My theory: People are fed up with dumbed down operating systems. What people want is something like SUSE or Ubuntu or Fedora: Easy to get in but with all the options open. That's why dumbed down distros will never become popular.

Linux is not WIndows.


Repeat after me. Repeat it 1000 times. People finding Windows too dumbed down will switch to Linux or one of the BSD's. People finding Linux "too hard" ought to stay on Windows. People unwilling to let go of their obsolete Windoze and DOS knowledge should not switch to Linux. With a mindset like that Linux will never be what they want. Maybe they should try Apple and Mac OS instead?

mintero wrote: If I find a distro that my grand-mother is able to understand and manage, I will believe that this situation can really change.
Don't underestimate your grandmother :wink:
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Postby mintero on Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:00 pm

AlsaPhil wrote::lol:

You manage a project or you dont manage it. I dont like bazaar. At my age I dont need to do my personal revolution, or search an identity or religion in linux.
Business plans must be rigorous in order to be succesful. Of course, this is my personal opinion


and I respect per ethics your opinion, mintero, but your dissertation definitely do not deal with the subject :lol:

Yes, yes AlsaPhil. If linux with its thousands of developers and community contribution is still at about 1% (home users) there is a real problem and it has its reasons. Maybe I have a mistake, but my feeling is that some persons influence the whole community negatively keeping it in an backward situation.

Someones have problems of social isolation, other want to do their personal revolution to appear different from the masses, others search the good reason to live, other are simply passionate by nature and fall in love with the command line, etc. Linux can really become a refuge for many people.

All these things are not good for the future of linux. I can't stand that a maniac linuxian, just because he has more technical knowledge than me gives me a miserable page of command line instructions for how to compile a tarball (yes in some cases you still need to compile). My God, we are in 2007 and Windows is "Install--Next-Finish". Can you see the difference between the two worlds now?

So when I talk about a rigorous businessplan, I also mean that I would ban individuals with such personal reasons from my project. You cannot convert people with an anachronistic image.
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Postby nick on Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:45 pm

mintero wrote:
If I find a distro that my grand-mother is able to understand and manage, I will believe that this situation can really change.

Six months ago, my 74 year old neigbour, a grandmother
with all of 3 years computing experience, came to me with her
"infected windows box" for the third time.
I gave her a choice, take it to a shop and pay
for it to be cleaned up or I will install Linux
She chose Linux, I installed Suse 10.1 with KDE.
and told her to come to me anytime she had a
question, she has asked TWO questions.
Also in her opinion it is far superior to "that
old windows" :)
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Postby frank392 on Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:52 pm

Hi Scorp123,
:D I agree with you 120%, I hardly agree with you but this time I do!!
Thank you Very much.
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Postby frank392 on Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:05 pm

hey Mintero,

"You manage a project or you dont manage it. I dont like bazaar. At my age I dont need to do my personal revolution, or search an identity or religion in linux."

You got it all wrong!! fist of all you would never "manage" Linux so I guess............. :arrow:

PS. and Linux is NOT a "bazaar"
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