your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded material

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JusTertii

Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by JusTertii »

hinto wrote: No, both are copyrighted.
Nobody's disputing that, H. If you read the thread title, it's about your opinions about pirated etc material.
hinto wrote:And opinion really doesn't matter when it comes to the law. That's legal/illegal. Opinion only comes into play when passing judgement.
Leaving aside that all law is is really a conflict of opinions (which is why you seek legal "advice" or a professional "opinion"), you're equating the legality of something with whether it's morally wrong in itself. I dispute that.
hinto wrote:That is, it is wrong to download pirated cds/dvds, etc.
Hey, now there's an opinion! That's what we're interested in here! Now, for bonus points, expand on *why* it's wrong to do so. I'd certainly be interested in hearing your thoughts re: parallel importation and the "Australia tax" Pierre mentioned. Also, I take it you retract your analogy with plagiarism? I notice you didn't seek to defend that.
hinto wrote: But the judge's opinion can can give you 5, 10 years or none at all, depending on 1, 2, 4000 cds/dvds you have.
A quick search of Australian case law shows no imprisonments for copyright over the last 10 or so years, and the only UK one I could find was for a combination of selling mod chips & money laundering. Surely the US doesn't actually *jail* people for this kind of stuff? The "land of the free", eh?
deleted

Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by deleted »

You're really debating How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
All answers are found here If Everybody Did, by Jo Ann Stover
I learned this over 40 years ago.
-H
monkeyboy

Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by monkeyboy »

Hinto: And opinion really doesn't matter when it comes to the law. That's legal/illegal. Opinion only comes into play when passing judgement.

If a law can't or won't be enforced then the law itself is irrelevant as a form of control in the real world . So it then comes down to a question of personal moral judgement.
deleted

Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by deleted »

Laws are laws regardless of what morality to ascribe to.
There are many laws that make things legal that are not moral.
and there are laws that make things illegal that are moral.
Enforcing/not enforcing laws do not make them go away.
If you want them to go away, change them.

The main take away is "What if everybody did?".
If everybody pirated software, we'd be out of a job.

-H (over and out)
monkeyboy

Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by monkeyboy »

H Enforcing/not enforcing laws do not make them go away.

I was commenting on the relevance and utility of a law when I said "If a law can't or won't be enforced then the law itself is irrelevant as a form of control in the real world ."
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by linx255 »

Before I say this, let me just say this is a very quick response and I don't necessarily expect that you'll interpret it the way I intend it to be read. With that in mind, you may misinterpret away without jumping down my throat too much. ;) I don't intend this to mean what you interpret--only what I intend, which is up to you to realize since my words are imperfect and there's not always time to perfect them.

To me the notion of controlling information and protecting certain industries' / business' interests or trying to put tape over the mouths of those saying things that we don't agree with by means of legislation, law enforcement, and penalties is, among other things, an absurd, cumbersome strain on a very large number of people, communities, businesses, and the legal system itself, and is ultimately useless in the grand scheme of things even though a great deal of folks currently profit from and depend on these laws.
If you don't work for free, why would you expect someone else to?
There is the notion that information should be "free and legal" which is gaining momentum in the U.S. and internationally. What this means is wide open to interpretation. The basis for this movement is that free and legal access to information is a fundamental human need that exceeds any company's or artists' needs. ( I won't argue or demonstrate the reason for this in detail here because that debate is going on in a lot of other places. ) ... Basically, "we" made decisions ( spanning many, many decades or even centuries ) to give corporations and industries special privileges to control info for profit. Copyrights, patents, trademarks, etc. Whether the direction of such public policies have fairly benefitted society is questionable. Whether or not jobs are lost due to piracy is irrelevant. The whole strategy of helping a handful of folks at the expense of what could be viewed as "information rights of the public", is not in everyone's interest. And I don't say this lightly because I know what it's like to be laid off and I am definitely not an advocate of working for free! Not that we live in a perfectly fair world that works out for everyone, but is not the opportunity for jobs in the open source world burgeoning? If not now, it seems like it could, and I know for a fact a rapidly growing amount of programming work now is all self-employed, gig-based, creativity type stuff, and you don't even need a college degree to get paid $ 50 - $ 300 an hour. Posting on stack overflow and a good repertoire can go a long way--even so far as to provide job security beyond what any one corporation can offer you as a permanent, direct employee. And as for artists, art should be made for art not money, IMHO, and I come from a large family of professional artists and musicians. And I'm a silicon valley professional and I know a lot of inventors, corporate and individuals, and am very familiar with the value that for-profit ventures place on intellectual property.

And there's this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=3bxcc3SM_KA
And many, many other problems.
The real question is why should you pay and not be able to do whatever you want with the software?
When I buy a computer I can change the hardware, the OS,... When I buy a TV I can decide how to use it, when I buy a car I can change the pieces, the oil, the tires...

SO why should I pay for a software and not be able to modify it to fix my needs?
And that's exactly right. Special interest groups don't want you have that kind of freedom. They just want you to need them. There is no real problem that requires us to pay for info. Special interest groups made up that "problem" and for some reason "we" all went with it. ( Nobody asked me, they just did it before I was born, hence this response now. ) Why should certain groups be more entitled to control of information than others? Just because they want to make money isn't sufficient justification to create a massive system of info control at taxpayer expense. If money is the concern then what about the pocketbooks of the rest of the citizens? There is a real imbalance of "informational power" because corporations do not represent the public at large, and if the public at large is ok with that, then... oh my, what does the public have going for them in the end except complete tyranny? I mean, isn't the whole reason for Linux and open-source to escape the tyranny of closed-source monopolies that abundantly serve the interests of a mere few? I mean, if Linux Mint became so good as to appeal to absolutely every user and beat Windows out of the competition forever it's hard to imagine no one would lose their job @ M$, right? The discussion of corporatized tyranny due to the exclusive control of info we allow them to harness at the expense of public rights is no small or quiet one. Quite the stir going on. If you really stop and think about it you may find that such control of mere ideas is insane.
The "land of the free", eh?
The U.S. is the "land of the free" no more than what its citizens and other forces have made it. It should perhaps be "land of the freer" or "freest" but freedom is not really a matter of geographical boundary as it is one's status in terms of power, wealth, family, etc. If you own a big bank in Europe that you inherited from your 800-year-old family dynasty you are freer than most people on the planet. Terms like "land of the free" are visionary at best. A vision yet to be created for certain; there are countless millions of atrocities occurring in the U.S. every year that defy this vision. Freedom is an illusion anyway. If you are "free" from one thing then you are bound to another, such as the responsibility of maintaining the "freedom" you have. You pay for what you get, no matter what it is.

As far as "wrong" or "right" goes, only you can weigh what's harmful to whom and how much, assuming your life experience is deep enough to qualify you to make that assessment. If society decides to give non-personal entities or special groups more power than people at large then it must own the damage ( oppression ) that inevitably ensues.
Last edited by linx255 on Sat May 02, 2015 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by kenetics »

killer de bug wrote:
hinto wrote: Because you get paid for your work.
-H
That's totally unrelated.

Do you really think that when I buy a car the company who build it is not paid for this? Does this mean that I cannot change something in the car after that? No.
Except now the car companies want to make it illegal to make repairs on your own vehicle. Car companies like GM and Ford want to reclassify cars as “mobile computing devices” and want the DCMA to be applied to them.

http://theantimedia.org/car-companies-w ... n-vehicle/
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killer de bug

Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by killer de bug »

That's something you can only see in the USA. :lol:
1.618

Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by 1.618 »

kenetics wrote:
Except now the car companies want to make it illegal to make repairs on your own vehicle. Car companies like GM and Ford want to reclassify cars as “mobile computing devices” and want the DCMA to be applied to them.

http://theantimedia.org/car-companies-w ... n-vehicle/
You no longer own the vehicles according to John Deer/GM - not sure how this translates to music and films but is relevant to the software aspect of copied material so thought I'd add to the thread

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by linx255 »

That's something you can only see in the USA. :lol:
You mean the DMCA stuff? If only in the USA now I can only imagine it would soon follow elsewhere, however, I'm not familiar with the direction of other countries on this topic.
Last edited by linx255 on Sat May 02, 2015 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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killer de bug

Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by killer de bug »

linx255 wrote: You mean the DMCA stuff? If only in the USA now I can only imagine it would soon follow elsewhere.
I mean a company who tries to make peoples believe that they don't buy a car, that it is still owned by the manufacturer and that they cannot make changes they want.
This can only happen in the USA. In the EU, this guy would not have had the right to finish his sentence. People would have laughed before he finishes. And 3 days after this, he would have to resign.
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by linx255 »

In the EU, this guy would not have had the right to finish his sentence. People would have laugh before he finishes. And 3 days after this, he would have to resign.
"This guy" meaning the company exec, I hope? Please clarify: are you are saying folks in the EU would not tolerate such a dictation from an auto maker?

Not to be too serious, but why the lol?
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by killer de bug »

linx255 wrote:
Please clarify: are you are saying folks in the EU would not tolerate such a dictation from an auto maker?
Of course. Look at all the decision taken by the EU in the last years to protect the customers.
Patent on software are illegal in Europe for example.
There is a law saying that Samsung has to provide support on your phone even if you changed the OS (as long as the problem is hardware).

Seriously stating that you can buy a car but not change anything in it is stupid. You are not buying then.
If that's the case, it's renting, so the company as to take it back after 2 years if you want to change it. And reimburse you of course...
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by exploder »

The EU seems to protect consumers where in the US it all seems to be about big business having power over the consumers.
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by linx255 »

killer de bug: Of course. Look at all the decision taken by the EU in the last years to protect the customers.
and
exploder: The EU seems to protect consumers where in the US it all seems to be about big business having power over the consumers.
The US may be behind on consumer protection, but multi-national corporations still afflict people everywhere on the globe with all kinds of atrocious practices. You can't escape it all no matter the continent. It's all trade-offs. Some nice things about the US, and some nice about the EU. There are countless of advocacy groups radically impacting the lives of Americans. EFF, ACLU for example.
Patent on software are illegal in Europe for example.
Very interesting!
Seriously stating that you can buy a car but not change anything in it is stupid. You are not buying then.
Agreed! Even without DMCA I feel very much I am renting a car when I pay regular fees for maintenance of cheap plastic or electronic parts that break constantly. You have to pay through the nose for code diagnostics on top of actual mechanical diagnostics, parts, and labor, unless you pay $500-$1000+ for a code reader and know how to use it. And if you need major work done you need a big garage, a lift, and expensive tools, time, and good youtube videos. You're absolutely right, ownership is only as good as the control you have over the thing you're supposed to own. If it controls you, they own you while you pay for it, and of course the resale value becomes almost nothing. You're effectively paying rent via parts and labor from the dealer, whom of course I avoid at all costs.
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by killer de bug »

linx255 wrote: The US may be behind on consumer protection, but multi-national corporations still afflict people everywhere on the globe with all kinds of atrocious practices. You can't escape it all no matter the continent. It's all trade-offs. Some nice things about the US, and some nice about the EU. There are countless of advocacy groups radically impacting the lives of Americans. EFF, ACLU for example.
My first comment was not negative.
I really think that the USA are an amazing country and I even applied to work there (mainly interested by San Francisco bay area)!

But I also really think that you are the only country of the world where someone can come with the crazy idea to reduce your rights about repairing a car. Let's see how this will end.

:wink:
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by linx255 »

My first comment was not negative.
I didn't sense it was. :wink:
I really think that the USA are an amazing country and I even applied to work there (mainly interested by San Francisco bay area)!
Watch out, USA is crazy, and California is NUUUTTTS! There is a lot of love in Cali too, however. :) You just have to search a bit to find it. Hollywood is pure evil :lol:, though there are some good folks there too. :wink: I was :shock: when I visited a Wal-Mart in Oakland to see a police station built into the Wal-Mart itself. The vibe was edgy! Cameras everywhere, like a prison. In Sacramento they're sweeping up homeless people in vans and detaining them in facilities outside the city, complete with barbed wire fences. Not joking. All kinds of awful problems in Cali. Water...don't get me started on that! :wink:
But I also really think that you are the only country of the world where someone can come with the crazy idea to reduce your rights about repairing a car.
Well, I don't know. Maybe that particular idea, but there are levels of craziness regarding certain other ideas in Europe that would rival this, and levels of craziness in the USA to match as well. The majority of USA citizens would not approve such crazy ideas if they knew that's what's going on. It's mainly a handful of super rich and powerful that come of with these things and implement them, though it is the job of the "majority" to shoot down such non-sense. Unfortunately a lot of folks are asleep to what's going on, so we just let it happen. Nevertheless, I get the feeling USA is a mix of the most ignorant and the most informed. Of course, there are crazy ideas everywhere, so I'm not trying to make one place seem crazier than another.
Last edited by linx255 on Mon May 04, 2015 2:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: your opininons about pirated/illegally downloaded materi

Post by 1.618 »

Things are going to change in the EU soon
The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) is an ugly mouthful, and not just in name. The aim is not just to reduce tariffs between the EU and US but to remove regulatory barriers and standardise rules so that companies can access each other’s market more easily.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/201 ... n-briefing
The laws will be changed soon so there are less restrictions on what corporations can get away with, meaning less consumer protection, Orwell would consider this a wet dream :D
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