A Personal Point of view

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A Personal Point of view

Postby D1Wayne on Fri May 25, 2007 9:30 pm

To date the Linux Mint team has/is doing one hell of a bang-up job, I think we all appreciate their efforts (else one would suspect, we would not be here :D ).

While Linux may identify more video adapters (base types) it has a major hurdle in it's way, it needs to handle them more gracefully (for the masses), more specifically X.org itself and related utilities and driver compatibility issues.

MS consistently will on install default to a usable safe video mode (even if it does not have native support for the adapter or monitor), allowing for install of preferred drivers and configuration afterwards, and once you set it up, leaves it that way, unless the user specifically changes it, it also allows for driver roll-back.

A preview and revert resolution option before committing any changes, which defaults to no (in case screen is unreadable. allowing end-user to try something else instead of crashing, or waiting to re-boot and then crash.

If all else fails starting in safe mode allows for driver rollback, while linux allows for testing resolution afterwards it does not have it instictively up front where it can be tested and is sorely needed as well as reliable driver rollback.

In other words if a Desktop for the masses is to be realized, you can never crash and leave the end-user at the command line. especially for a linux virgin (which I believe constitutes the current masses:)

Now honestly, suppose you are one of the masses that has 1 pc, and are virgin to linux you just installed re-booted and xserver crashes, which of the following would you do, remember you've never ever used any Linux distro before, but you have used windows for years :twisted: ?

1) Ask help in a forum? (@#$@ how do I start firefox from here, where am i, how the hell did this happen, what happened!!)
2) Run to a chat room? (bugger me, I do not know how to do that from here)
3) reconfig or delete xorg.conf by
sudo rm /etc/X11/xorg.conf
(what the @#@@ is sudo or that #@#$ rm or freaking xorg.conf are?)
4) re-boot live-cd and try to get help at 800x600 or 1600x1200 resolution)
5) Re-Install windows and forget this #$@%^ ever crossed my path

Hint, wife and 12 other xp's without blinking an eye chose #5.
none of the 13 had any interest in dealing with such an issue or desire to use a desktop that this could remotely even happen. And 3 of these were seriously peeved with MS (but it was the Devil they did not have to know anything about the back end voodoo about drivers and codecs etc..)

(luckily I asked before putting it on her machine, so still have the family jewels in tact :shock:

This brings up the slogan bit about "for the masses" (which where i come from means overwhelming majority, or are we just referring to current users of different linux users :twisted: ) if so then "for the current linux installed based masses" might be more appropriate :roll:

BTW: my personal want is (this one perhaps not for the masses:)
reliable grub installation how/where it is to be installed. assurances before commitment, such as where and what are choices made, such as mounts, grub location, partition re-sizing, before installion actually begins).
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Postby scorp123 on Sat May 26, 2007 7:47 am

Yes, some sort of failover-mechanism would be great .... e.g. in the GRUB start options maybe? Or as a command? The command would auto-collect the logs from the failed setup (e.g. xorg.logs ...) and then execute a series of scripts that would create an xorg.conf file for 800 x 600 VGA, 256 colors. Most present-day desktop graphics cards and laptops can easily handle this mode. If that one fails too, fall back to 640 x 480 ... every laptop and every desktop can sure handle that resolution. Once you got graphics back it should be easy even for a newbie to get some help to fix whatever other problem is left ...
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Postby exploder on Sat May 26, 2007 8:21 am

D1Wayne, your post was very well worded. The subject of graphics cards and Linux has been in many articals and reviews and makes a valid point. At best, number 4 might be used but most just want things to work "out of the box".
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Postby D1Wayne on Sat May 26, 2007 8:44 am

perhaps in addition, for those of us that needs to manually tweak this file xorg.conf section at the top.
Code: Select all
Section "AlreadyConfigured"
  option   Developers="Back Off This is finally working, go bugger your own arse"
  option   Installers="DO NOT DISTURB"
  option   robots="nofollow"
  option   allothers="Leave alone. no touchy"
EndSection

..... :D :D :D :D
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Postby Husse on Sat May 26, 2007 12:57 pm

I second your thoughts on this D1Wayne.
The irony is that your 13 XP people move back to an OS that we have to agree is working, but with many flaws such as malware and the like and every now and then they will see the screen flicker blueish and the computer will mercilessly reboot and destroy the last hours work. That will happen about as often as X crashes on Linux I think...
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Don't fix it if it ain't broken, don't break it if you can't fix it
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Postby Boo on Sun May 27, 2007 9:58 pm

Hmmm thanks I have an idea about this restore-video-mode and grub.

It all has to do with run levels and the fact that there are lots that are not used so you can do what ever you like with a spare one.
He he he.
know what i'm saying hay hay. :wink: :wink: say no more, say no more!

:lol:

now off to play...
well maybe tonight.

:D
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Now where was i going? Oh yes, crazy!
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Postby D1Wayne on Sun May 27, 2007 11:44 pm

perhaps this is a useless question, but

why does devices that work very well in prior releases suddenly are not recognized in next releases?

6150 mobos are only a few years old, Dell 990 19" crt perhaps 4 years old
this combo has been decently identified in past releases, (breezy, dapper/Bianca etc..) but 7.04/Cassandra fails to initial recognize the combo as anything but 800x600?

is it an attempt to speed-up boot (reducing number of probes for valid resolutions/ frequencies) or simply xorg getting shoddier (if that is possible :D )
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Postby grimdestripador on Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:00 pm

And Window's worst flaw is that to do anything, its a process of clicking the next button. Secretly Training you to just click next as fast as you can w/o reading.

Windows is a constant process of using your administrator abilities to setup the machine.

Linux is a constant lock down, from the administrator who took the time to configure the videocard so that the users can click every button in sight, and yet the computer will be untouched for the next person to use it.

My X-server rarely crashes, and fixing it is always a simple command. sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg, then click next a million times. When my videodriver fails in Windows XP, its a hassle of uninstalling the old driver, explaining to someone less computer literate of where to click on the screen, with things hidden in tabs, to reinstall drivers, to click a million more buttons to find the update driver button. Which will then spin a circle for a minute while it phones home to microsoft just to tell you you have to click back, and install it manually. .. .. I could go on,... as i still have a restart and need to set the adapter frequency to 75, since 60 HURTS!. haha. Its just familiearity.

I believe the best way to interact with a comptuer is throght the keyboard. Its more about muscle memory, and complex tasks can be achieved though key sequenes.

I don't think the user interface has improved with the GUI. It only adds more buttons on the top of the screen, filled with buttons to customize those buttons. Think of the formula editor for MSOFFICE. You constantly have to click,drag,highlight then click the sqrt button. Then you type your equation, and need an integration sign with limits, each times you clicking little boxes, and typing numbers on the screen. Whereas in OPENOFFICE, you click equation editor and it give you like a command console where you type you equation of line distance "S=int from a to b sqrt x". A simple example of how a GUI isn't always an improvement.

Don't get me started on the new office. Its "IMPROVEMENTS" yeah right,
Whats worse than buttons on the screen, buttons on the screen that move around. Its not getting easier here, its becomming more upfront, and giving everything a single purpose. When you type it out, you have the ability to have programs give the output of one operation to start a second. How neet
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Postby kenetics on Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:52 am

To answer the original question, a nice little "startup" booklet enclosed with each purchased CD (or downloaded with the iso) would be helpful. I could give install instructions and some basic info on what to do if something goes wrong, driver installs, etc.
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Postby shane on Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:27 am

isnt gutsy gibbon going to come with bullet proof xorg? ie... if your xorg isn't setup right it goes to a failsafe mode... not as fancy but still gets you to a GUI with GNOME or KDE or whatever you use...?

so I suppose the original poster's worries end beginning next month :)
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Postby hairy_Palms on Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:19 am

yup, gutsy will have bulletproof X, meaning itll drop you to a low resolution that shows you displayconfig-gtk from which you can select drivers, resolutions, etc
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Postby Ede on Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:48 am

Who needs a graphics-card? :D

Terminal works aaaaallright.
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