Some FUD I found.

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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby AK Dave on Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:17 pm

FedoraRefugee wrote: Why would anyone bother to learn how to use it when Windows came on the computer, everyone else uses Windows, all their software and any software they are likely to buy runs on Windows, any peripheral out there is designed to run on Windows, and anytime they need help they can get it professionally. Why would a "normal" person want to spend time dicking around with drivers trying to get their printer to print or their wifi to work? Why would they want to spend time trying to figure out Wine to get their favorite game to work?


I guess I must not be normal. If "normal" equates "Windows", then I must be certifiably insane. As well as Mac users, for that matter.

I can be paid to emulate normal, but I do not willingly use Windows unless a paycheck is involved for me.

I will grant you that Mint mostly does work and is easy enough for anyone.


In my experience, Ubuntu is just as reliable as Mint. Downside? A few things that Mint installs by default have to be added, and sometimes a couple extra months of "polish" can make Mint look like a star compared with Ubuntu.

Just be happy we have a choice.


Yup! :D
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby FedoraRefugee on Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:37 pm

No Dave, you are not "normal." Neither am I. We both learned how to use Linux for whatever reason and we enjoy it. We can work out the problems and dont need to be spoonfed every single little thing. You appear like you even hate Windows. I did at one time, I went MS free for many years. Now I use Vista, it is okay. It wont ever take the place of Linux though. No, we are not normal. Most people would not be interested in what we know. They just want to use their computer, to be able to buy something and plug it in and have the computer recognize it. They want to browse the software in best buy and purchase whatever they fancy without any worries that it will not run on their system. They want to use the programs their family, friends, and workmates also use. I aint telling you anything you dont already know.

Ubuntu can be just as challenging as Fedora. In fact, for a noob it seems like it is either/or with those two. If Fedora wont install and run on your system without any actions from the user then Ubuntu probably will. If Ubuntu doesnt then it is a good bet Fedora will. I dont know why this is, but I have seen it many times. Of course we know Linux is Linux. If one distro will work then all distros can be made to work. But I would not classify Ubuntu as easy as Mint. Mint goes that extra mile, it is as brainless as it gets at least up to this point in time. Much easier than installing Windows even.
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby linuxviolin on Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:15 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:They just want to use their computer, to be able to buy something and plug it in and have the computer recognize it. They want to browse the software in best buy and purchase whatever they fancy without any worries that it will not run on their system. They want to use the programs their family, friends, and workmates also use.

Why softwares bought? You can use open-source apps on Windows too, even almost just these. There is plethora, there is a very big choice, even Linux apps work on Windows, and they work quite well! Many "normal" users use open-source apps even on Windows... :wink:
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby FedoraRefugee on Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:47 am

linuxviolin wrote:
FedoraRefugee wrote:They just want to use their computer, to be able to buy something and plug it in and have the computer recognize it. They want to browse the software in best buy and purchase whatever they fancy without any worries that it will not run on their system. They want to use the programs their family, friends, and workmates also use.

Why softwares bought? You can use open-source apps on Windows too, even almost just these. There is plethora, there is a very big choice, even Linux apps work on Windows, and they work quite well! Many "normal" users use open-source apps even on Windows... :wink:


Free your mind linuxviolin! :D Why buy software? For starters, how about QuickBook pro? This is a SOHO standard. It is very powerful software that most small businesses use. There is just no FOSS equivalent. This leads us into an office productivity suite. Oh sure, that dude in the other thread claims he switched people over yo open office and they are golden and happy opening .doc's. BULL! He is either lying or a total fool. OO.o does not hold a candle to Office 2007. OO.o can open .docx but it can do little else with it. Formatting is all screwed up. Who's fault is this? Microsoft's, of course. But that still does not change the facts. If I cannot even open simple documents from clients/bosses/whatever then I am done! Finished! This is just the word processor, do you even want to talk spreadsheets? Calc cant even touch Excel. It lacks even basic functions that Excel has. Likewise Powerpoint is miles ahead of Impress. Can YOU get by on OO.o? Probably. But if you are a professional, working in a professional world you cannot. The world runs on Windows, sad but true. Why do you think I am forced to run Vista? I run my home office just fine on Calc, though I fully admit my needs are basic and I miss many features that can only be had with a QB/Excel combo. But for school I had no choice. When I started they at least accepted .odt. But now everything has to be submitted in .docx and OO.o just can not handle the formatting.

Then you have the gamers. Dont even go here, Linux cant even begin to compare. Again, who's fault is it? Microsoft's, and the gameing studios who are either in bed with them or just can be bothered with Linux. How about specialty software? My wife is is nursing home administration. She uses specialized software that is only available for Windows. She is required to have a Vista laptop. End of story. In fact, in the real world most businesses are like this. The option to actually use Linux on the job is pretty rare. Those that have this option should appreciate it. I could go on all day here. Many of us have no problem moving to FOSS in our personal lives. Linux does a pretty good job of filling the gaps. Can we do everything Windows users do? Yes, but sometimes our sodtware is not as good/powerful/professional/stable. We manage. But when we have to start interacting with others in a professional world many of us find that Linux comes up short. Not that Linux is to blame, but again, you can blame my mama if it makes you feel better. It is what it is. A Windows world.
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby MALsPa on Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:42 am

FedoraRefugee wrote:So why am I wasting my time here, in this thread?


I don't think you were wasting your time. You've made some very good points, FR.

I generally find Windows to be a hassle and I'm glad that I no longer need it at home. (You mentioned OpenOffice; yes, it's fine for everything I do at home... now that my current job doesn't require me to bring Windows documents home!) Things could change -- a different job, perhaps -- and I could find myself needing to run Windows at home again.

Anyway, Linux can be a hassle, too. It's just that, for me, it's a more fun hassle than Windows. 8)

I don't go around recommending Linux to anyone anymore. I figure that people who are gonna take to Linux well are usually people who will find out about it and try it without any prompting from me. No evangelism here.
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby FedoraRefugee on Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:12 am

I still recommend Linux to people. It is fun and I think it is much better than Windows, even with its problems. I just make sure that the people I am talking to about Linux understand all the aspects especially the downside. Many people are not cut out for Linux. My father in law is a good example. He is just computer stupid period. He cannot run Windows right either. But he only uses his computer for games. Especially the real arcade type games. He buys them online and downloads them. This alone makes Linux a non-option for him. He knows nothing about virus or spyware protection. We tried to teach him but he wont listen. Every year or so his computer quits working. He takes it up to the shop and pays the man $80 to reinstall XP. Whatever...He is hopeless. I wouldnt even attempt to talk to him about Linux. He wouldnt listen anyway.
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby rhY on Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:40 pm

Your dad in law def sounds like a typical Windows for life user.

However I've switched LOTS of non gamer office types over to Mint and they are very happy.

The article is stating an obvious problem: Then inherent evil of corporations, and in particular the inherent evil of a corporation with a near monopoly. It's not just MS mind you, if anything I think Apple is much worse. There are Apple evangelists everywhere, but they are the most evil, DRM locked, artist raping corporation of all time.

All that aside, it's clear that distros like Mint have got MS scared unicorns. So scared that they had to release a reasonable OS (Win7). Ironically, it is still vastly behind Mint in usability and speed, and also inherently crippled out of the box (no office, etc...). In fact the only versions of Windows *I* would recommend to anybody are the pirated versions: *edit, etc..

The fact that Microsoft itself cannot release a non-cruft fast version like these clearly shows their inability to serve the consumer, which is solely due to their hegemony position. This alone is reason to get everyone you know on Linux as soon as possible. The real problem of course is that this is going to get much, much worse, with Apple and their competitor-less iPhone. To date there isn't 4 other phones that can compete across the board with the sleekness, usability and price of the iPhone. The lock in is going to be much worse in the future as our phones become more and more like full blown computers.

This is why it is essential that we also start getting some cheap and solid open source hardware on the market ASAP!

*Edit by Husse - no references to pirated software please
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby Axanon on Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:23 pm

rhY wrote:The fact that Microsoft itself cannot release a non-cruft fast version like these clearly shows their inability to serve the consumer, which is solely due to their hegemony position. This alone is reason to get everyone you know on Linux as soon as possible.


I don't think more people need to switch to Linux. Some people NEED windows, Linux is a personal choice. I'll be happy with my Linux. Everyone else can do what they like. What I would like to see is more people developing software and drivers for Linux that can actually compete with the MS/Mac world...
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby linuxviolin on Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:34 pm

FedoraRefugee wrote:Free your mind linuxviolin! :D Why buy software? For starters, how about QuickBook pro? This is a SOHO standard. It is very powerful software that most small businesses use. There is just no FOSS equivalent. This leads us into an office productivity suite. Oh sure, that dude in the other thread claims he switched people over yo open office and they are golden and happy opening .doc's. BULL! He is either lying or a total fool. OO.o does not hold a candle to Office 2007. OO.o can open .docx but it can do little else with it. Formatting is all screwed up. Who's fault is this? Microsoft's, of course. But that still does not change the facts. If I cannot even open simple documents from clients/bosses/whatever then I am done! Finished! This is just the word processor, do you even want to talk spreadsheets? Calc cant even touch Excel. It lacks even basic functions that Excel has. Likewise Powerpoint is miles ahead of Impress. Can YOU get by on OO.o? Probably. But if you are a professional, working in a professional world you cannot. The world runs on Windows, sad but true. Why do you think I am forced to run Vista? I run my home office just fine on Calc, though I fully admit my needs are basic and I miss many features that can only be had with a QB/Excel combo. But for school I had no choice. When I started they at least accepted .odt. But now everything has to be submitted in .docx and OO.o just can not handle the formatting.

Then you have the gamers. Dont even go here, Linux cant even begin to compare. Again, who's fault is it? Microsoft's, and the gameing studios who are either in bed with them or just can be bothered with Linux. How about specialty software? My wife is is nursing home administration. She uses specialized software that is only available for Windows. She is required to have a Vista laptop. End of story. In fact, in the real world most businesses are like this. The option to actually use Linux on the job is pretty rare. Those that have this option should appreciate it. I could go on all day here. Many of us have no problem moving to FOSS in our personal lives. Linux does a pretty good job of filling the gaps. Can we do everything Windows users do? Yes, but sometimes our sodtware is not as good/powerful/professional/stable. We manage. But when we have to start interacting with others in a professional world many of us find that Linux comes up short. Not that Linux is to blame, but again, you can blame my mama if it makes you feel better. It is what it is. A Windows world.

Yes of course, I know all of this. But I didn't talk about professionals but just about "normal, classic, simple", or whatever else as you call him/her and as for example is probably the usual Mint user..., home user.

And yes, Office is better than OO.o and (s)he can (want) buy it but for the most(/majority?) of his/her needs (web, mails, images, videos etc) (s)he can just use open source softwares...
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby SteveW on Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:01 pm

FedoraRefugee wrote:The world runs on Windows, sad but true.

Most of the top 500 supercomputers run Linux: http://www.top500.org/stats/list/33/os
The Large Hadron Collider runs Linux: http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Scientific-Linux-is-Part-of-the-Large-Hadron-Collider-Grid
Google runs Linux both on their servers and internally: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goobuntu
Amazon runs on Linux: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-275155.html
The EU is commited to adopting open source and has created a central repository for public administrations: http://www.osor.eu/
Numerous governmental departments across the EU have migrated already.
Even the British government, who love blowing billions of pounds for no good reason, have started contemplating open source: http://www.infopackets.com/news/government/2009/20090227_microsoft_to_lose_british_battle_in_open_source_war.htm

Politicians in the EU and Switzerland have advocated the teaching of open source software in European schools.
Russia has announced all its schools computers will run Linux.
Brazil has tens of thousands of computers running Linux in elementary and secondary schools, so does the Philippines.
Government funded high schools in India have adopted Linux for their computer education.
Over 30 Universities in Germany have migrated to Linux.

With regards to the statistics I have read that:
1) The market analysis that stated Linux only had a 1% market share only counted paid deployments.
2) The NetApps statistics are considered unscientific, North-American centric and are also collected from sites that are unlikely to attract visitors who are advocates/users of FLOSS.

Microsoft's position is not unassailable.

FedoraRefugee wrote:Can YOU get by on OO.o? Probably. But if you are a professional, working in a professional world you cannot.
A professional what?
Staff not licenses: http://www.osor.eu/news/danish-hospital-hassle-free-use-of-odf-across-competing-office-suites
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Re: Some FUD I found.

Postby AK Dave on Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:35 pm

FedoraRefugee wrote:You appear like you even hate Windows.


I don't hate Windows. I simply find little use for Windows as an operating system. I simply don't care much for Windows and won't use it unless a paycheck is involved. Not that I refuse to use it, but I insist on being paid to use it. If I'm not being paid to use it, I'll use something else by preference.

I don't abhore Microsoft product, as a general rule. I find I prefer MS Office 2007 to OO.o, although OO.o does at least 95% of what I want out of an "Office Suite". Unless a paycheck is involved, my use of Windows is limited to it being an occasional use virtual guest as a "program sandbox". Even with both Office 2007 (in an XP guest) and OO.o available to me, I'll pick OO.o for a task if thats more convenient for me to use at the time.

I don't hate Windows. I'm simply not tied to it.

I'm also not an evangelist about Linux. I use it at home and have no problem recommending it to anyone, but I'll let other people come to me with an interest instead of cramming it down someone's throat.
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