ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Screen resolution, 3D Acceleration, nVidia, ATI
Forum rules
Before you post please read this

ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby phill1978 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:19 pm

Mint Update manager 8) love it, updates all the things i have, great. huge selling point V windows. I am a big Linux fan.

HOWEVER.. Shield with question mark.. list of updates. Press update (pretend for a minuet that snide comment thats forming about reading what you install doesn't get spat out)

libglapi-mesa 9.0.3
libgl-mesa-dri
libgl-mesa-glx


Driver = Broke. Steam wont Launch games and errors.

---------------------------------
glxinfo
name of display: :0.0
libGL error: failed to load driver: swrast
libGL error: Try again with LIBGL_DEBUG=verbose for more details.
display: :0 screen: 0
direct rendering: No (If you want to find out why, try setting LIBGL_DEBUG=verbose)
server glx vendor string: ATI
server glx version string: 1.4
----------------------------------

Did i fix it ?? yes, I played around a bit and installed the official driver again. But I really shouldn't have to.

Seriously, im not sure who pushes out this Mesa stuff without testing? Is it the MINT Team themselves? Or is it an Canonical thing?

This has happened three times over the course of a year ! :x

Its bloody foolish and makes Linux feel unstable and weak. Are 'we' not at the turning point? the point where Linux could become a viable platform for people for gaming and general use due to windows 8 not being well received and Linux getting lots of positive press?
I posted on the steam forums and a guy with an Nividia card has the same issue. So both main vendors get screwed with an auto update for how many people? perhaps not all but enough to put people off using and learning Linux?

Now my take on it is, Linux has to sort the whole GPU driver thing out. Im fairly sick and tired of hearing how its the vendors fault? how is that so when it was a system update that broke things and not the vendor driver? ohh wait i get it, linux was here first and the gpu vendors have to bend over and open up in order to interact with the linux community, the reality is this isn't going to happen ever 100%. So there must be a mature attitude adopted to testing before update when it comes to the GPU side of things, is it that hard?

Lets look as linux other than a coding box and consider it an alternative easy to use Desktop system capable of competing with MAC OS and Windows. If you use any productivity software (other than music making and coding) your going to need a working GPU driver, its as simple as that, the GPU/APU is becoming if not has become the most important aspect of a desktop operating system!

a simple update shouldn't break this

Is linux just an arse around for nerds? or do we get to a stable point where things are established and moved forward like commercial software? I have already donated to the project so I have in fact part paid for my software, please stop breaking it.
phill1978
Level 3
Level 3
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:19 am

Linux Mint is funded by ads and donations.
 

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby eanfrid on Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:29 pm

Did i fix it ?? yes, I played around a bit and installed the official driver again. But I really shouldn't have to.
Proprietary drivers are in essence unstable, do break things and have very limited compatibility with Linux hardware, some kernel releases and X/OpenGL versions. So you have to upgrade/reinstall/recompile them each time something they were not specially written for evolves. Open source drivers rarely break and dont have to be recompiled every now and then. I almost never use GPU proprietary drivers because I work with my machines and I want GPU drivers which never break.
Main desktop: Debian GNU/Linux Wheezy 64bit w/custom 3.14 longterm kernel - MATE 1.8.1
(i5 2400@3.7GHz - 16GB DDR3 - HD6770 w/radeon driver - SSD+RAID1)
True private storage on SpiderOak
User avatar
eanfrid
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1755
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:49 am
Location: U29tZXdoZXJlIG5lYXIgUGFyaXMsIEZyYW5jZQo=

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby Orbmiser on Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:54 pm

Its bloody foolish and makes Linux feel unstable and weak. Are 'we' not at the turning point? the point where Linux could become a viable platform for people for gaming


Again and Again! Why are So many blaming Linux for this? It's not Linux's Fault. It's the proprietary divers released by the manufactures. Not the Linux community. Why would so many blame linux and post so many dismays in linux forum all over. When ALL KNOW that it's the manufacture that should be blamed.

Why don't people with the issuee spend all that time actually posting in the manufactures forums instead?
And even then I have my doubts that will many times not be enough. Unless huge numbers direct their anger directly at the headquarters phones & email addresses for the manufacturer.

As there isn't a Damn Thing the Linux Community itself can do about it. Except like you should complain to the manufacture.

Don't want breakage then don't run proprietary divers. I don't and use the default open drivers for my Ati 4350 and zero breakage.
As to gaming as far as I'm concerned not ready for prime-time and still immature.

And dissing a whole OS for one thing like gaming is also a general wide sweeping unfair characterization of the state of Linux for Desktop computing.
.
.
Last edited by Orbmiser on Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Orbmiser
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1514
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:16 pm
Location: Portland,Oregon

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby tdockery97 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:05 pm

Orbmiser wrote: Why would so many blame linux and post so many dismays in linux forum all over. When ALL KNOW that it's the manufacture that should be blamed.

I think a lot of people don't understand that the reason the proprietary drivers tend to stay up-to-date and working in Windows is because the makers of the drivers are getting big bucks from Microsoft for doing so. It's my understanding that the reason those drivers tend to fall behind in Linux is that they are provided more as a contribution to the opensource community.

I think another reason may be that the Linux kernel upgrades and changes much more often than in Windows. Windows tends to provide security and a few software updates, but runs on the same underlying system for years at a time.
Image

HP Pavilion 17 Notebook, 8GB DDR3, 2.5GHZ A10-APU, Radeon HD 8650G
Registered Linux User #520972
User avatar
tdockery97
Level 13
Level 13
 
Posts: 4866
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:54 am
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby eanfrid on Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:08 pm

Yep. Your Linux distrib is not responsible for your decision to use (untested) proprietary drivers made by companies for whom Linux support is not a profitable business. As for unofficial/3rd-party potentially unstable software, it is your choice to do so.
Main desktop: Debian GNU/Linux Wheezy 64bit w/custom 3.14 longterm kernel - MATE 1.8.1
(i5 2400@3.7GHz - 16GB DDR3 - HD6770 w/radeon driver - SSD+RAID1)
True private storage on SpiderOak
User avatar
eanfrid
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1755
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:49 am
Location: U29tZXdoZXJlIG5lYXIgUGFyaXMsIEZyYW5jZQo=

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby mockturtl on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:32 pm

Seriously, im not sure who pushes out this Mesa stuff without testing? Is it the MINT Team themselves? Or is it an Canonical thing?
Try to imagine how many permutations of hardware and software "this stuff" needs to be tested against. Even in Windows, updating graphics drivers has always been a crapshoot, and a headache.

They're Ubuntu packages. I think you can expect to see a better testing story when Steam has a proper Debian package.

On the Mint side, I can see a case for the Update Manager suggesting a reboot, or offering to hold some packages. There's no substitute for knowing what's happening, though.

So there must be a mature attitude adopted to testing before update when it comes to the GPU side of things, is it that hard?
Of course it's hard. Hopefully Valve can demonstrate there's a market for games on Linux, and the industry will follow our money.

Make noise on the Steam forums. Whether mesa is the problem or not, they have an interest in fixing it.
Image
User avatar
mockturtl
Level 4
Level 4
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:51 pm

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby phill1978 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:25 pm

thanks for the replies.

I cant say im pleased with them, not in tone but in answer. I have made some posts prior to this and have done again on the amd dev forum and steam. I hear what your saying about the money and the packages will follow properly once valve come to the table and start controlling things better with the GPU vendors, great if it does happen..

..But... :?

I can see from the answers that i am coming in from the opposite side that i should be (or should i ?) which is to expect the official drivers to work better when in fact the opinion is that:

Don't want breakage then don't run proprietary divers. I don't and use the default open drivers for my Ati 4350 and zero breakage


You my friend have a card that is now older than the sun by modern gaming standards. I hope im just pointing out a fact here as i don't intend to insult you. I actually intend to drop windows 7 altogether and with the help of steam and a small amount of wine (and the program emulator :lol: ) I am doing this VERY successfully.

So the response maybe "yea but mine works" but my response is "yea so does mine on the official driver until a mesa update is released"

So lets look at the official driver it should be more stable than the open source (in fact it works better than the open source as far as im concerned) It should have more features, which it does: latest caps for games, custom graphics settings for games on the control panel, custom monitor settings on the control panel, custom color and video settings on the panel, custom launchers on the panel the whole job lot.

a driver in essence is just the api interaction with the hardware right? so some people (and fair enough if this is the case) are not interested in gaming or 3D graphics there happy with a stable open source 2D driver with standard clocks.

So beyond that, EVERYONE who is migrating to linux will choose the official driver bar a few on older ati hardware like the 4xxx series. They will do this for 3D performance and the CCC suite. They will do this for the over clocking.

finally how does the open source driver cope with new functions such as Eyefinity or excellent power-saving features such as Zero core ?

You see i am coming from the angle that closed software can be extremely good for the Linux community IF there isn't a conflict of interest. One side seems to want open source code for the driver and this somehow breaks my closed source driver?

Any ideas why libmesa breaks the official driver? I really do think an issue like this will isolate linux away and valve will create their own ISO steam box builds that will work, leaving all linux desktop users pulling their hair out when there is a libmesa update on their close source driver

/rant :oops:
phill1978
Level 3
Level 3
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:19 am

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby mockturtl on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:46 pm

phill1978 wrote:Press update (pretend for a minuet that snide comment thats forming about reading what you install doesn't get spat out)
To "update," innocuous as it sounds, really is a fundamental difference from the Windows way of doing things. Programs, libraries, the whole kernel might change -- contrast, two or three "service packs" of security patches over the support life, with programs that may or may not bundle their own update daemons to clog up your taskbar and add bloatware. ("How sure are you you want the ask.com toolbar? Totally sure? Or just sure?")

I don't know precisely, pardon the pun, what Canonical puts in the "-updates" repo, but it sounds like they blew you up. The 1-5 "safety scale" in MintUpdate is supposed to mitigate this. If you haven't messed with the default setting ("allow level 3 updates"), I'd file a bug report (upstream).

yes, I played around a bit and installed the official driver again.
What was your fix? I like to drop to a console, run `sgfxi`, and pray.

You see i am coming from the angle that closed software can be extremely good for the Linux community IF there isn't a conflict of interest. One side seems to want open source code for the driver and this somehow breaks my closed source driver?
If Canonical or Red Hat can't take ownership of the code, they can only support it to the extent the vendor helps. Nvidia and ATI are famously unhelpful. Distros can't be hostage to the GPU vendors' business needs, especially as a negligible share of the market.

valve will create their own ISO steam box builds that will work
Two critical differences: no updates, full hardware control.
Image
User avatar
mockturtl
Level 4
Level 4
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:51 pm

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby phill1978 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:09 pm

Two critical differences: no updates, full hardware control.


but thats no good for every one else who wants to use , mint, arch, ubuntu etc.. when valve offer their software it wont look any different to now but on their custom build that will keep working whilst a casual mesa update breaks it for everyone else and at that point both the gpu vendor and valve wont care as long as steam-box is still working :(

The fix for me was to re-install the gpu driver. The point was there was a host of updates on the mint update manager and down the bottom was some arbitrary mesa update which killed the driver pretty much. I do wonder if the idea of the mint update icon was a plesant and easy way to bulk update software then the trust for the end user lies with the person/s who are adding the repo's to the update as tested and working.

The testing for chromium, firefox, thunderbird, general kernal updates, Window manager updates (xfce,mate,cinnamon etc..) etc.. must of taken place as i have been using Linux almost exclusively for 4 years now running the auto update and the only thing that really screws up is the libmesa updates when i run the official drivers..which correct me if im wrong are not needed if im not using the opensource driver?

Im not sure if im being clear? I chose to use firefox, it gets updated. I didn't choose the opensource driver but it would seem the update or some config happens anyway as standard and breaks the official driver? this is a forced corruption in basic computing terms as far as i can tell as an end user

what did i miss :?
phill1978
Level 3
Level 3
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:19 am

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby monkeyboy on Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:33 pm

what did i miss :?

In the past things were broken in Linux
In the present things are broken in Linux
I am willing to bet that for the foreseeable future things will continue to broken in Linux.
Being outraged about reality usually doesn't do any good.
Enjoy
If you don't like it, make something better
If you can't make something better, adapt
If you can't do either ball your panties up and cry.

Complaining is like masticating most anyone can do it.
However doing it in public is really hardcore.
User avatar
monkeyboy
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 11:30 am

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby phill1978 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:07 am

monkeyboy wrote:what did i miss :?

In the past things were broken in Linux
In the present things are broken in Linux
I am willing to bet that for the foreseeable future things will continue to broken in Linux.
Being outraged about reality usually doesn't do any good.
Enjoy


Not a helpful post as such and im not sure if there is a bit of apathy coming in there? like you have been through this and also agree or that your actually saying #dealwithit linux is in a continual state of half working ? and again if you dont like it lump it?

Not sure if thats helpful :?: it seems like the same crap people give who are linux diehards and dont want to help other people, blaming the user rather than the system hence alienating the new userbase and reducing the accessibility of the OS? This type of person cant be attractive to the hard working mint team taking thousands of dollars a month in donations as it reduces their income as people flock away from the system.

Linux for me has worked flawlessly apart from these random mesa updates. It is getting some great press at the moment. For those in future who dont want a tablet based desktop experience im sure there will always be a flavor of linux around that can cater for these things.

What I was trying to get across if i was to be as blunt as yourself:
Dont put an update button somewhere plain sight and flashing "update me big boy" then have it Bork the system. And have said update button as a 8) feature of Mint and then it turns out to be the worst for those wanting official drivers.
phill1978
Level 3
Level 3
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:19 am

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby Total_Blue on Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:35 pm

I currently run the open source drivers myself, but thats only because my card is no longer supported. It seems to me however, that when applying an update, it should be easy to code in a routine to do a check to see if the propriety driver is installed and if so, not apply that update. Or it could prompt the user with a warning that the update may break their system and ask if they want to continue or skip this update.
Total_Blue
Level 1
Level 1
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby eanfrid on Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:43 am

Dont put an update button somewhere plain sight and flashing "update me big boy" then have it Bork the system. And have said update button as a 8) feature of Mint and then it turns out to be the worst for those wanting official drivers.
AFAIK, proprietary drivers are OEM, not official distrib drivers, so only the open-source ones are official.

Not sure but, are mesa-drivers updates considered as level 1-3 ? If those are at level 4-5, it is still up to the user to handle them cautiously.
Main desktop: Debian GNU/Linux Wheezy 64bit w/custom 3.14 longterm kernel - MATE 1.8.1
(i5 2400@3.7GHz - 16GB DDR3 - HD6770 w/radeon driver - SSD+RAID1)
True private storage on SpiderOak
User avatar
eanfrid
Level 7
Level 7
 
Posts: 1755
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:49 am
Location: U29tZXdoZXJlIG5lYXIgUGFyaXMsIEZyYW5jZQo=

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby bigj231 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:32 am

In the past mesa, GRUB, the kernel, and other critical stuff was all level 4-5. I haven't used the mint updater for a while, so I don't know anymore.

And I know this will probably go over like a lead balloon, but nobody is forcing you to update your system. If everything is working, there's not much reason to update the kernel, GRUB, MESA, etc. In fact, Debian stable is running software that's years old now. You almost have to be trying to break a Debian stable system. Ubuntu/Mint are using newer packages, so there will be more breakages, but also more new features. If you never want your system to break, install Debian and leave it alone. You'll be stuck with old packages, but they will work.
When I was running an AMD laptop, I broke my system every few months when I tried to update the GPU drivers. I learned to leave it alone and the breakages stopped. I don't think it's any small coincidence. 8)
Ubuntu has come a long way though. 6 years ago, I had monthly breakages on a LTS. Today, I run the latest release for the full 6 months without any issues except the ones I cause. Part of this is due in part to the excellent open source Intel GPU drivers, but most of it is due to the maturity and experience of the dev teams. ( 6 years ago now? I'm getting old. :( )
Running on a 4-slot toaster @ 60Hz
User avatar
bigj231
Level 5
Level 5
 
Posts: 793
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:16 am
Location: Middle of Nowhere

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby phill1978 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:35 am

bigj231 wrote:In the past mesa, GRUB, the kernel, and other critical stuff was all level 4-5. I haven't used the mint updater for a while, so I don't know anymore.

And I know this will probably go over like a lead balloon, but nobody is forcing you to update your system. If everything is working, there's not much reason to update the kernel, GRUB, MESA, etc. In fact, Debian stable is running software that's years old now. You almost have to be trying to break a Debian stable system. Ubuntu/Mint are using newer packages, so there will be more breakages, but also more new features. If you never want your system to break, install Debian and leave it alone. You'll be stuck with old packages, but they will work.
When I was running an AMD laptop, I broke my system every few months when I tried to update the GPU drivers. I learned to leave it alone and the breakages stopped. I don't think it's any small coincidence. 8)
Ubuntu has come a long way though. 6 years ago, I had monthly breakages on a LTS. Today, I run the latest release for the full 6 months without any issues except the ones I cause. Part of this is due in part to the excellent open source Intel GPU drivers, but most of it is due to the maturity and experience of the dev teams. ( 6 years ago now? I'm getting old. :( )


thanks for the response. I update for security and newer patches to firefox and chrome (also bug fix , security) and any other great new features to my existing software suite so the leave it for 6 years approach isnt going to work.

I guess il qualify my response with the type of user I am and want to be: A gamer, a linux gamer. I will always need the offical OEM AMD driver and CAPS. I will always want upto date sound and graphics functions and good network / security. The software update feature of mint is excellent as i already said, but fiddling through lots of odd little updates and removing ticks is a minefield i have to be able to trust the mint updater. Gaming + Audio support is where linux has failed for so long, and now is the time it could get better.

I currently run the open source drivers myself, but thats only because my card is no longer supported. It seems to me however, that when applying an update, it should be easy to code in a routine to do a check to see if the propriety driver is installed and if so, not apply that update. Or it could prompt the user with a warning that the update may break their system and ask if they want to continue or skip this update.


A simple but excellent idea ^^

Or perhaps there could be a clearer management of package updates in folders like the menu has ? or even integrate the update into the main menu with a refresh icon next to the application ?? 8)
phill1978
Level 3
Level 3
 
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:19 am

Re: ONCE AGAIN... FF!! Stop breaking linux with updates

Postby av8tor on Wed May 01, 2013 9:56 am

tdockery97 wrote:
Orbmiser wrote: Why would so many blame linux and post so many dismays in linux forum all over. When ALL KNOW that it's the manufacture that should be blamed.

I think a lot of people don't understand that the reason the proprietary drivers tend to stay up-to-date and working in Windows is because the makers of the drivers are getting big bucks from Microsoft for doing so. It's my understanding that the reason those drivers tend to fall behind in Linux is that they are provided more as a contribution to the opensource community.

Bingo!
av8tor
Level 1
Level 1
 
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:15 pm

Linux Mint is funded by ads and donations.
 

Return to Graphic Cards & Monitors

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mVentus and 5 guests