Why is Mint (and desktop Linux in general) so cumbersome?

[Raident]

I'm talking about all the little things like:

- Keyboard and (especially) mouse lag when the system is under 100% CPU load - Windows and OS X have long since figured out that the keyboard and mouse are the most important parts of the system and should always be given top priority regardless of whatever else is going on
- The cursor doesn't really reflect what's actually going on. A lot of the time, the spinning ball stays even after the program in question has obviously completed whatever operation it was doing a long time ago.
- Some part of the desktop stack crashes once every few weeks, sending me back to the login screen - yes, the underlying OS is super stable, but what good does that do me if I'm still losing all of my running programs anyway?
- As a continuation of the above point, why isn't Linux resilient enough to allow my running programs to survive the desktop stack crashing in the first place? I mean, loose coupling is a fundamental principle of software engineering...
- Web fonts are a major problem - Calibri is a popular font amongst webmasters these days, and Mint simply doesn't have it.
- A smaller problem is font rendering. Even with the right fonts installed, I can't get Mint/Firefox to render a webpage exactly the way Windows/Firefox does - it's close, but not pixel perfect.
- Too many external dependencies. When I run Windows Update, I get everything from a single source. When I run Update Manager on Mint, it needs to look up 80 sources. And worse yet, if just one of those 80 servers is down, Update Manager throws up its hands and completely aborts the check for updates.

None of these (or the million other things that I didn't mention) are a big deal in and of themselves, but their combined effect results in a very noticeable lack of polish - in the iOS vs Android sense - the end result being that using Windows or OS X is simply a more pleasant experience.

[Pjotr]

None of these (or the million other things that I didn't mention) are a big deal in and of themselves, but their combined effect results in a very noticeable lack of polish - in the iOS vs Android sense - the end result being that using Windows or OS X is simply a more pleasant experience.

Well, goodbye then and have fun with Windows or OS X .... May you live happily ever after.

As for me personally: I like Linux in general and Linux Mint in particular. It does everything I want, without any problems whatsoever. No big problems, no small problems, just a superb computing experience.

No other operating system comes even near, with the possible exception of OS X (but that's a golden cage, with the equivalent pricetag).

I know a good thing when I see one.

[jimallyn]

Sorry to hear that Linux doesn't work for you. It has worked well for me for 13 years now, and I wouldn't consider using anything else. I don't find using Windows to be a pleasant experience. I have occasion to use Windows on my mother's computer now and then, and every time it's a royal pain in the ass.

[mkg3103]

I am sorry to hear that you could not enjoy Linux in general and in particularly Mint.
I am using Linux for 2 years and happy with that. If my employer will allow then i will be using it in my office also.
Linux is a community supported software which believes in freedom and supported by users like us only who are trying to support the developers actively or passively.
Its not a corporate developed software which will beautiful like a new bride.
Whatever you say Linux is good in general and Mint is best in particular.

[Flemur]

- Keyboard and (especially) mouse lag when the system is under 100% CPU load

I've never had that happen.

- The cursor doesn't really reflect what's actually going on.

I've never had that happen.

- Some part of the desktop stack crashes once every few weeks, sending me back to the login screen -

I've never had that happen.

- Web fonts are a major problem - Calibri is a popular font amongst webmasters these days, and Mint simply doesn't have it.

Search synaptic for Calibri. Or just copy the .ttf file from wherever and update font cache.

- A smaller problem is font rendering. Even with the right fonts installed, I can't get Mint/Firefox to render a webpage exactly the way Windows/Firefox does - it's close, but not pixel perfect.

I have the opposite problem - I can't get windows to render fonts exactly like linux does.

- And worse yet, if just one of those 80 servers is down, Update Manager throws up its hands and completely aborts the check for updates.

On those rare occasions, mine doesn't abort but asks me if I want to continue and install the files it could access.

You didn't say which DE you're using, but maybe you might like a different one (a choice, unlike MS).

[Flemur]

jimallyn

I don't find using Windows to be a pleasant experience. I have occasion to use Windows on my mother's computer now and then, and every time it's a royal pain in the ass.

Agreed. When I used MS regularly I replaced their user-hostile desktop with blackbox.

[BigEasy]

None of these (or the million other things that I didn't mention) are a big deal in and of themselves, but their combined effect results in a very noticeable lack of polish - in the iOS vs Android sense - the end result being that using Windows or OS X is simply a more pleasant experience.

It is statement (95% of computer users agree with you). Where is your non-technical question?

[Pjotr]

95% of computer users agree with you.

I doubt that..... most of them simply have no idea; they just use what came pre-installed with their hardware.

[Cosmo.]

95% of computer users agree with you

Sorry, that is nonsense. The market share of Windows is somewhere between 80 to 90 %. So at least 10 to 20 % have willingly chosen another O.S - and surely not, because they wanted the one with the "less pleasant experience". Taking only a little time for looking into user-forums with Windows-related software or questions, shows that a great number of users rant about "Windows", "M$" or however they name it. Many use Windows, because it is so easy to go into a cash-and-carry-market, take a box and go out - and not, because they are so pleased about their experience. Other do use it, because they have to for their work, where chiefs decide about such things. Most supercomputers work with Linux - do you mean, because their admins are masochists, who do not like "pleasant experience"? (There does not exist a cash-and-carry-market for them.) The until now latest release of Windows - 8 & 8.1 in common - show already falling market shares; agreement is something else. And so on.

And then there is the tremendous number of people, who have not the least idea, that there is indeed an alternative available. If I talk with them I get asked: Linux, is this something, where you must handle with hole cards? Where nothing than a DOS-windows - sorry: terminal - exist? Very many people had never a chance to see a Linux-machine running, they have only a vague idea, that it has something to do with computers, but only usable for freaks with holes instead of eyes in their head or similar. Many people simply have themselves arranged with Windows, because they believe, that there does not exist an alternative at all, which is really usable also for them. When I changed the computer of my wife to Linux and showed here, how to use the basics (she uses nearly nothing except Firefox) she was at first not amused. After a week or so she said to me: Wow, my computer (hardware was not changed) is quicker than before! That is something what I call "pleasant experience".

If someone comes here and says "I like Windows more than Linux", this is OK; it is his opinion and I personally are for free software and also for free speech. One can discuss about that - provided, well-founded arguments get used. But throwing an easily recognizable wrong data around is no argument at all - it is an expression of missing arguments.

In one point you are right: The OP did not provide a question. He described numerous problems, which I and others cannot reproduce, but he left open, if he really wnats help. Furthermore he provided no information, which would be required for providing help. So it is a rather useless post.

[BigEasy]

95% of computer users agree with you

Sorry, that is nonsense. The market share of Windows is somewhere between 80 to 90 %. So at least 10 to 20 % have willingly chosen another O.S

You forgot Windows marked share summarize with OS X marked share. As son as you do it you will get 95%.
I remind you what was original statement:

the end result being that using Windows or OS X is simply a more pleasant experience.

And finally look here:
http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating ... pcustomd=0
How about "nonsense"? Be careful to write long respond without use some calculator first.

[Ark987]

I'm talking about all the little things like:

- Keyboard and (especially) mouse lag when the system is under 100% CPU load - Windows and OS X have long since figured out that the keyboard and mouse are the most important parts of the system and should always be given top priority regardless of whatever else is going on
- The cursor doesn't really reflect what's actually going on. A lot of the time, the spinning ball stays even after the program in question has obviously completed whatever operation it was doing a long time ago.
- Some part of the desktop stack crashes once every few weeks, sending me back to the login screen - yes, the underlying OS is super stable, but what good does that do me if I'm still losing all of my running programs anyway?
- As a continuation of the above point, why isn't Linux resilient enough to allow my running programs to survive the desktop stack crashing in the first place? I mean, loose coupling is a fundamental principle of software engineering...
- Web fonts are a major problem - Calibri is a popular font amongst webmasters these days, and Mint simply doesn't have it.
- A smaller problem is font rendering. Even with the right fonts installed, I can't get Mint/Firefox to render a webpage exactly the way Windows/Firefox does - it's close, but not pixel perfect.
- Too many external dependencies. When I run Windows Update, I get everything from a single source. When I run Update Manager on Mint, it needs to look up 80 sources. And worse yet, if just one of those 80 servers is down, Update Manager throws up its hands and completely aborts the check for updates.

None of these (or the million other things that I didn't mention) are a big deal in and of themselves, but their combined effect results in a very noticeable lack of polish - in the iOS vs Android sense - the end result being that using Windows or OS X is simply a more pleasant experience.

Linux community should not miss the point and drawn in anger because of a criticism. A resume of this small wall-text is.....Linux desktop computing need urgently a decent and stable desktop environment.

You have to stop lying to yourselves, there are certain situation where just by doing simple things in your pc the Desktop environment crashes and everything on-screen is flushed away. For example, since KDE4 was released I'm able to crash the KDE desktop just by changing a widget and the wallpaper right after a clean install, in Cinnamon I'm able to crash the file manager if during a file copy I open more windows of the file manager, I guess that doesn't happen to you, correct?

I'm expecting that Cinnamon project have the answer for this common problem in the Linux world, a Desktop crash has become unacceptable for regular users and this is still happening in your favorite DE.

[Cosmo.]

95% of computer users agree with you

Sorry, that is nonsense. The market share of Windows is somewhere between 80 to 90 %. So at least 10 to 20 % have willingly chosen another O.S

You forgot Windows marked share summarize with OS X marked share. As son as you do it you will get 95%.

And after the first sentence in my post you stopped reading? You can summarize market share values, but this is not the share of users with "pleasant experience".
Yes, I concentrated on the OS with the greatest market share. But even simply adding the Apple-values gives a wrong idea. Or are those (indeed a minority, but they exist), who install Mint (or any other Linux distro) to Apple hardware users with "pleasant experience"? Your statement is simply wrong, and this is easy to see. So far about "be careful". You did not write about the summarized market shares, but about "pleasant experience".

As you seem to be a fan of numbers, than those tell a little bit more about satisfied users. Even this number (20 % below your market share summarizing) is to high, because - as I wrote already - a huge number of people have themselves arranged with the OS they currently use and do not even know, that there is an usable alternative. Furthermore there is a difference between "satisfaction" and "pleasant experience". Nevertheless, your statement is proven to be wrong.

[BigEasy]

And after the first sentence in my post you stopped reading? You can summarize market share values, but this is not the share of users with "pleasant experience".

Yes, of course. For example here is topicstarter who is +1 to the number of Linux users. But -1 for "pleasant experience" of it.

[karlchen]

Hello, Raident.

Your question "Why is Mint (and desktop Linux in general) so cumbersome?" implies that everybody experiences the problems which you experience.
This is a misconception.
Just because you experience a number of problems and nuisances, does not mean that other Linux Mint users make the same experience.
Just because you experience a number of problems and nuisances on Linux Mint, does not permit to draw any conclusion about other Linux distributions at all.
About the issues which you cared to explain:
Flemur has given the perfect answer to each of your complaints. Your experience is not his experience. And assuming that your experience is everybody else's experience is a bit egocentric at best.

Personally I would like to have a short peak at the list of "the million other things that (you) didn't mention", just to find out whether the actual number would exceed the number of my fingers or not. My bet is on "not".

Anyway.

The simple answer to your question "Why is Mint (and desktop Linux in general) so cumbersome?" is: It is not cumbersome at all. It may be for you, but it is not for the majority of Linux Mint users. If it were then they would not be Linux Mint users for very much longer. Unlike Windows, Linux Mint does not come pre-installed on too many machines. Instead you have to install it yourself. In case the result were cumbersome for a large number of Mint users, the number of Mint users would certainly decrease quickly.

If you were interested in solving the issues which you explained, then you would open a thread for each of them and try to get help solving the issue. This would very likely bring about much more benefit for all participants than one more "Why Linux Mint is so cumbersome" thread.

Cheers,
Karl

[Cosmo.]

For example here is topicstarter who is +1 to the number of Linux users. But -1 for "pleasant experience" of it.

Example for what? For somebody who probably has compiled any findings from several sources? Or does anybody believe, that he was even able to find "millions other things" himself? Oh, he didn't mean it verbatim? But what at all did he mean verbatim?
If no reproducible steps get shown and obviously nobody can reproduce the "reported" problems, I have my doubts about their seriousness. Not putting any question hardens my suspect.

Having this said, I add, that there will never be an OS, that fits the needs and wishes for absolutely anybody. The existing of 4 DE for the main edition of Mint + LMDE is a fine example; obviously the developers did not try to create a super-hyper-DE which has to work for everyone. But I strongly believe, that the amount (in %) of satisfied users with "pleasant experience" is for any free Linux distro greater than for the commercial OS's. Simply out of the reason, that the user can switch to another one without loosing any money for the license. Those, who do not switch, do have a reason.

[phd21]

Hi Raident,

I do not have any of the problems you wrote about on my very old, very limited computer hardware using Linux Mint 17.1 KDE. But, I had some issues that you wrote about using Ms Windows XP Pro. I do not find Linux Mint cumbersome at all.

I have been a computer professional (hardware & software) for decades primarily using MS Windows and networking, and I have never been able to install an operating system so quickly and easily as with Linux Mint with all the basic necessities to be useful immediately. And, I have never found any operating system or hardware manufacturer forum or website, or user forum, that compares to this Linux Mint forum in usefulness and quick response times (there are other very good Linux forums and websites, some manufacturers too).

In my expert opinion, Linux Mint is very stable, refined, and polished and has long term free support worthy of personal and business use; and it is free. But, you do have to spend a little bit of time and effort in choosing the correct edition of Linux Mint for your hardware; and once you have that Linux Mint edition that's right for your hardware installed, it just works and works really well and will continue to do so for years.

FYI: It would help everyone here to have more information about your system's setup: like what edition and version of Linux Mint are you using, Cinnamon, Mate, KDE (my fav), or Xfce; version 17 or 17.1, or What?; 32-bit or 64-bit? Some more information about your hardware would be useful as well. You can get this information from your system menu's Welcome screen, System Information program, and by typing in "inxi -Fxz" from a console terminal prompt, which you can then copy and paste back here. This information helps anyone here in this forum to be able to answer any questions you may have better , thanks. You can even add this information (abbreviated) to your signature using the control panel link in the above left of this forum screen; then when you post a question or reply to one, that info will automatically be there, ex: see mine and others below their posts.

[Redstring]

I've tried Linux Mint & Ubuntu off and on for about ten years and other than my old Mint install on a Thinkpad T61, I've typically ran into issues with Linux. I really do want to make the switch to Linux but every time I do something pushes me back to Windows. Though to be fair I think many of my later issues were due to AMD GPUs and their truly horrible drivers.

My latest foray into Linux is with Mint 17.1 with Cinnamon and it has already been a bit of a pain. My first issue was (no surprise) with the graphics drivers. Updating fglrx through the Synaptic Manager left me with the error "Could not find required OpenGL entry point Linux Mint 17..." when starting DOTA 2 and I wasn't having much luck finding a solution online; Most were just saying to install fglrx. So I tried to re-install fglrx through SPM but encountered an exclamation point next to it, something about a broken package? After searching, again, for awhile I found this fix on these forums:

Code: Select all

sudo dpkg --configure -a
sudo apt-get -f install
sudo apt-get autoremove
sudo apt-get clean
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade

This seemed to fix my fglrx issues. Other than that I've had Firefox and the DOTA 2 client lock up more than once. Gnome was still responsive and I was able to kill the process through the terminal, and once I had to force Logout to gain back control.

On a positive note, though I haven't had a chance to use Mint 17.1 much I have noticed Firefox seems quite a bit more responsive and snappy than it did on Windows. I notice gifs load smoother (?) and forwarding/backing through pages is noticeably quicker. In Windows this can cause slight hanging, or content will take a split second to long to refresh.

Maybe one day I'll purchase a Nvida GPU and be able to fully switch to Linux but until then for myself Windows just works and it's much less of a headache. Though I should add I never have problems on my laptop w/ Mint.


Here's my specs if anyone is interested:

System: Host: mint-desktop Kernel: 3.13.0-37-generic x86_64 (64 bit, gcc: 4.8.2)
Desktop: Gnome Distro: Linux Mint 17.1 Rebecca
Machine: Mobo: ASRock model: H97M Pro4 Bios: American Megatrends version: P1.40 date: 12/17/2014
CPU: Dual core Intel Pentium CPU G3258 (-MCP-) cache: 3072 KB flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx) bmips: 12797.6
Clock Speeds: 1: 3199.404 MHz 2: 3199.404 MHz
Graphics: Card: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] Curacao PRO [Radeon R9 270] bus-ID: 01:00.0
X.Org: 1.15.1 drivers: ati,fglrx (unloaded: fbdev,vesa,radeon) Resolution: 1920x1080@59.9hz
GLX Renderer: AMD Radeon R9 200 Series GLX Version: 4.4.13374 - CPC 15.20.1013 Direct Rendering: Yes
Audio: Card-1: Intel Device 8ca0 driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:1b.0 Sound: ALSA ver: k3.13.0-37-generic
Card-2: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] Cape Verde/Pitcairn HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 7700/7800 Series] driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 01:00.1
Network: Card-1: Intel Ethernet Connection (2) I218-V driver: e1000e ver: 2.3.2-k port: f040 bus-ID: 00:19.0
IF: eth0 state: down mac: <filter>
Card-2: Atheros AR9271 802.11n driver: ath9k_htc usb-ID: 0cf3:9271
IF: wlan0 state: up mac: <filter>
Drives: HDD Total Size: 250.1GB (8.5% used) 1: id: /dev/sda model: WDC_WD2500AAKX size: 250.1GB
Partition: ID: / size: 33G used: 20G (65%) fs: ext4 ID: swap-1 size: 8.52GB used: 0.00GB (0%) fs: swap
RAID: No RAID devices detected - /proc/mdstat and md_mod kernel raid module present
Sensors: System Temperatures: cpu: 56.0C mobo: N/A
Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A
Info: Processes: 166 Uptime: 1:55 Memory: 2563.7/7920.9MB Runlevel: 2 Gcc sys: 4.8.4 Client: Shell inxi: 1.8.4

[MtnDewManiac]

Why is Mint (and desktop Linux in general) so cumbersome?

It isn't.

- Keyboard and (especially) mouse lag when the system is under 100% CPU load - Windows and OS X have long since figured out that the keyboard and mouse are the most important parts of the system and should always be given top priority regardless of whatever else is going on

I guess that all depends on just what exactly the work is that is running the CPU at 100%. Most folks want their work to finish as quickly as is feasible... Meaning that wasting cycles so that the user can veg out watching YouTube videos is contraindicated. Now... It's all relative, I guess. If, instead of doing something important, your CPU is hammered by ripping a DVD into an easily-uploadable format or the like, then I suppose that you might not consider it to be of earth-shaking importance - in which case, learn to restrict CPU cycles on a per-process basis. Or switch to a "Dumb User" OS, such as one of Microsoft's, where it is assumed that the user cannot be trusted to decide what is best for himself/herself and must have it all done for him/her.

- The cursor doesn't really reflect what's actually going on. A lot of the time, the spinning ball stays even after the program in question has obviously completed whatever operation it was doing a long time ago.

That one actually sounds like a bug. File a bug report instead of just griping about it and there's a good chance that it'll be fixed. I recently griped about something I noticed in Xfce 4.12. Then I realized what an idiot I looked like, just b*tching and moaning about something that annoyed me instead of actually, you know... trying to help. The developer dropped a fix the next day. Or you could just keep on griping and NOT file a bug report. That way you'll continue to have something to complain about, I guess.

- Some part of the desktop stack crashes once every few weeks, sending me back to the login screen - yes, the underlying OS is super stable, but what good does that do me if I'm still losing all of my running programs anyway?

Never happened to me. Or any of my friends. Maybe we're really lucky? Without knowing what you are doing immediately before it happens or what is left behind in the logs, you cannot expect help.

- Web fonts are a major problem - Calibri is a popular font amongst webmasters these days, and Mint simply doesn't have it.

But Mom, all the cool kids have one! Why can't I get one?

Since a simple web search of "Calibri font Mint Linux" (sans quotation marks) gives 6,390 results (mainly explaining how quick and easy it is to install that and other font packages, FFS), I'm guessing that you just felt like moaning and threw this one in to flesh out your gripe-list without spending the evening - or five seconds of it, at least - checking to see if your complaints were actually valid. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: Google the answer.

- A smaller problem is font rendering. Even with the right fonts installed, I can't get Mint/Firefox to render a webpage exactly the way Windows/Firefox does - it's close, but not pixel perfect.

Produce screenshots of each. Then prove that the Microsoft OS version is the correct one. Because, at this point, I am fresh out of "giving you the benefit of the doubt ."

- Too many external dependencies. When I run Windows Update, I get everything from a single source. When I run Update Manager on Mint, it needs to look up 80 sources. And worse yet, if just one of those 80 servers is down, Update Manager throws up its hands and completely aborts the check for updates.

Wow, you have a lot more PPAs in your sources list than I do. But be that as it may, why would you WANT Mint to be Big Brother? After all, look at the record that Microsoft has when serving in that position. Oh, and it doesn't abort the check for updates (just how many versions behind current IS your Mint?!?).

None of these (or the million other things that I didn't mention) are a big deal in and of themselves

That's good, because most of them aren't even valid.

but their combined effect results in a very noticeable lack of polish - in the iOS vs Android sense

I could guess that you're an iFan. But that'd be insulting to those who use Apple cell phones (because of the thoughts running through my head... Moderators, don't read too much into my thoughts), so I won't.

- the end result being that using Windows or OS X is simply a more pleasant experience.

<SHRUGS> Bye.

- - - - - - - - - -

I find it hard to believe that I just wasted six minutes of my life answering a troll. Oh well, the microwave ought to be about ready to <DING> any second now.

Regards,
MDM

[Pjotr]

- Too many external dependencies. When I run Windows Update, I get everything from a single source. When I run Update Manager on Mint, it needs to look up 80 sources. And worse yet, if just one of those 80 servers is down, Update Manager throws up its hands and completely aborts the check for updates.

Wow, you have a lot more PPAs in your sources list than I do. But be that as it may, why would you WANT Mint to be Big Brother? After all, look at the record that Microsoft has when serving in that position. Oh, and it doesn't abort the check for updates (just how many versions behind current IS your Mint?!?).

It always amazes me when people completely bork their Linux with tons of obscure PPA's and then start complaining that their Frankenstein systems don't work anymore...

PPA's are a mixed blessing, to say the least. If used wisely and restrictively, PPA's can be of great help. But used indiscriminately, they're a pest that plagues the earth.

Thanks for a highly entertaining yet apposite comment, by the way.

[justwally]

I have been using Linux as my only desktop/laptop system since 1996. Before that I used MINIX and X11R5 from 1990-1996. In that time (19-years) I have never had Linux stay at 100% CPU load for anything but a few milliseconds. What are you doing that causes your system to stay at 100%?

I have never had my mouse or keyboard become sluggish.

I have never had my mouse cursor get "stuck."

My desktop rarely crashes (XFCE4), and when it does I Ctrl-Alt-Backspace to restart it. It's been months since I crashed my desktop.

No computer, when it crashes, leaves running programs operational. Not Linux, Not MacOS, not Windows, not Solaris, not UNIX, not System 25, not Atari GEM/TOS, nada.

My Web fonts are perfectly rendered across four different Web browsers on three different computers. It sounds like you have the wrong screen/monitor resolution configured.

If you want a font installed then copy it into your fonts folder. Do not complain that Linux isn't stealing Microsoft's proprietary fonts.

External dependencies? Do you want anyone to take you seriously? REALLY? When you run Windows Update does it also update Adobe products? No, it doesn't.

In short, I do not have, and never have had, your list of problems pop up. Why do you think it is Linux that is the problem? You got something for free and are upset that it's not from Macy's. I just cannot take you seriously...it looks like another oblique fan-boi attack.

If you were running Linux from a CD-ROM or USB thumb drive there is going to be some lag.