No More xorg.conf files?

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No More xorg.conf files?

Postby D1Wayne on Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:52 am

Though this might be a tad early
xorg 7.3
Hotplug Monitors
Hopefully No More dang xorg.conf files

EDIT by scorp123 (forum moderator): Subject line changed to something more meaningful :wink:
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Postby scorp123 on Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:10 am

Could you please elaborate what you want / need? If this is a suggestion, could you please go into more details what your suggestion is about?? :?
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Postby D1Wayne on Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:03 am

scorp123 wrote:Could you please elaborate what you want / need? If this is a suggestion, could you please go into more details what your suggestion is about?? :?


Recently read article
http://community.linux.com/article.pl?s ... 13/2112259

This was a suggestion. Do what ever is needed to rid us of xorg.conf headaches please!

Prior to last night's clean install of Bianca + Updates
Nvidia 6150 + Dell 990 monitor were not a problem,
now after clean install, re-booting, after updates re-booted, stuck at 1280x1024 85hz, xorg.conf lost VertRefresh and HorizSync. 3 seperate attempts same thing. (same CD used install 2 weeks ago and did not have this problem)

It seems as if an ant passes wind on the rings of Saturn xorg dies
this has been a recurring problem on at least 6 machines in the last 4 years, (and primary reason I keep returning to XP)

Nvidia, ATI, VIA Epia Mini-ITX. (Different Mobos, Video Adapters, Monitors)
All work flawless under XP, all dual boots

Monitors have been Dell 990 crt, Dell 170fp, Envision, Philips 150p

There seems to be someting with most distros (rh, suse, Ubuntu) that seems to kill what ever video combo I end up with.

Ubuntu Herd 5 no problems, then 2.16.20.15 video problems started, so I tried Linux Mint.

Now same type of problems.

Lost 8 hours trying to figure out why no screens after the 86 updates, (did not even change resolution), I tried running envy 8,1 screen went blank and stayed that way. re-booted in recovery mode, did the dbpk reconfigured for xorg, switched to vesa drivers, installed envy 9.1, required re-boot, back up and running again.

Of course this could be a Nvidia problem of Dell 990 issue, but xorg.conf always seems to be the root problem
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Postby scorp123 on Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:56 pm

D1Wayne wrote: Recently read article
http://community.linux.com/article.pl?s ... 13/2112259

This was a suggestion. Do what ever is needed to rid us of xorg.conf headaches please!
Ah OK :D Nice article, BTW :wink:

D1Wayne wrote: Prior to last night's clean install of Bianca + Updates
Nvidia 6150 + Dell 990 monitor were not a problem,
now after clean install, re-booting, after updates re-booted, stuck at 1280x1024 85hz, xorg.conf lost VertRefresh and HorizSync.
You have to keep in mind that both NVidia and ATI drivers are more or less closed source right now. They depend on closed source kernel modules which more or less need to be re-compiled and re-installed, especially if an update has touched the Linux Kernel or any core X.org components :?

It's a pain in the a...... :roll: I know. :?

That's why some witty people created the envy program. It should usually fix those video driver issues auto-magically.

D1Wayne wrote: It seems as if an ant passes wind on the rings of Saturn xorg dies this has been a recurring problem on at least 6 machines in the last 4 years, (and primary reason I keep returning to XP)
Well, as I said above. It would be easier if Nvidia and ATI opened up their video drivers and released them as Open Source, just as everybody else did, e.g. Matrox, Intel, many others. As I said above: As soon as an update touches the kernel or some core X.org components the previously installed Nvidia and/or ATI drivers stop working and most likely need to be installed in some way again.

I for example always use NVidia cards in my Linux desktop systems. Despite the drivers being closed source and updates being such a pain their cards are pretty much the best ones you can have for Linux.

D1Wayne wrote: Ubuntu Herd 5 no problems, then 2.16.20.15 video problems started, so I tried Linux Mint. Now same type of problems.
Did you update the kernel or some X.org components? There you go :wink:

D1Wayne wrote: Of course this could be a Nvidia problem of Dell 990 issue, but xorg.conf always seems to be the root problem
It's just a config file :wink: The real problem are stubborn companies such as ATI and Nvidia on one side and some stubborn Linux kernel developers who refuse to include some sort of an "API" (a programming interface) so that closed-source drivers could hook into the Linux kernel, regardless of the kernel version or any updates taking place or not.

The main problem here is not even a technical one but rather a philosophical and legal one: The "GNU General Public License", GPL.

The Linux kernel was released under the GPL. Any "derived" piece of software from it must therefore also be GPL. It is therefore quite problematic if a closed-source driver hooks into the Linux kernel: By most this is seen as a violation of the GPL; hence a violation of the same freedeom that makes Linux and its redistribution possible in the first place.

And so Nvidia and ATI will not open source their drivers and Linus Torvalds & Co. won't create such an API in the kernel to appease such companies (because if they start with this where would this stop?).

That is the core of the problem :wink:
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Postby D1Wayne on Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:54 pm

...it's just a config file Wink The real problem ...


I'm aware that video drivers are a problematic cause for this type of incedent, but for John Q. Public, it might as well be the entire distro in one file re-writen in basic Assembler!

If a Live-CD Distro boots correctly and installs correctly with a graphical UI on a particular hardware base, then it should be bullet proof and at the very worst revert to that Live-CD GUI configuration, and not give-up and present the end-user with a text-based UI

So what I'm gleaning from your reply is that there are no Desktop distro for Linux that is ready for John Q. Public (and may never be), unless you disable all updates :idea: .

Because:
After one Downloads an ISO. Creates a CD/DVD, Boots the Distro. Cleanly installs the Distro Re-boots.
One then has to selectively pick and chose which updates to download and install from list of updates presented them from the “Update Managerâ€￾?
Else possibly end-up with a (for the general user ie.. grandparent types) a totally unusable system (as far as the end-user is concerned) :shock: ?

One would perhaps make the assumption that one could go out and replace ones monitor (and hopefully this is where x.org 7.3 maybe of great benefit) and not have to call and pay someone like me to help them get up and running, and be cursed and spat upon because I or someone else had recommended Linux as an alternative to their current OS. Instead of being paid and thanked because I solved their problems in an application or problem(s) they created for themselves, including spy-ware or virus.

After updates envy 8.1 crashed
as a note envy is not compatible with Feisty,
Upgraded to envy 9.1 and x.org7.2
Things currently seem much more stable.
beryl even seems very happy
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Postby scorp123 on Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:18 am

D1Wayne wrote: So what I'm gleaning from your reply is that there are no Desktop distro for Linux that is ready for John Q. Public (and may never be), unless you disable all updates :idea:
Well, which OS is ???? :? You seem to forget that e.g. on Windows XP the "Service Pack 2" was a bad surprise too for many people when tons of stuff all of a sudden stopped to work. :D I will not even mention Vi$ta here, which is nothing but just an updated XP with a new GUI. Result? Tons of stuff not working :twisted:

I personally find SUSE's stuff working very very well. I installed it on my wife's machine (toooootal noob !!!!) and we never have troubles with it, updates or not. SUSE's update mechanism takes care of everything, even the NVidia drivers :D

I could imagine that if you stick to certain procedures and "Do's" and "Dont's" the update on other distros (Ubuntu, Fedora, Linspire, Xandros ....) could be equally smooth. :wink:

But I agree with you that all this should be easier and less prone to such unneeded hassles ...
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Postby hairy_Palms on Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:40 am

Ubuntu Herd 5 no problems, then 2.16.20.15 video problems started, so I tried Linux Mint.

i feel should also point out herd 5 was an Alpha release.so you cant expect things not to break.
whilest im cautiously hopeful about xorg 7.3 i hope that they provide a way to fix the xserver when it doesnt work, because it will, nothings 100% perfect, and dpkg-reconfigure doesnt do everything.
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Postby D1Wayne on Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:46 am

Related further info:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BulletProofX
It seems that bullet-proof-x is perhaps partly implemented but not well, based on following thread.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=394417

however searching further it gets confusing.
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu ... et-proof-x
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty
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Postby hairy_Palms on Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:00 pm

I personally find SUSE's stuff working very very well. I installed it on my wife's machine (toooootal noob !!!!) and we never have troubles with it, updates or not. SUSE's update mechanism takes care of everything, even the NVidia drivers

i agree, if suse and rpm wasnt so bloody slow it mightve been my primary desktop too.
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Postby scorp123 on Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:52 pm

hairy_Palms wrote:i agree, if suse and rpm wasnt so bloody slow
Well, compared to "apt" everything seems slow ... I only use "yast" for system config stuff and let "smart" handle the packages. "smart install something" is still slower than "apt-get install something" but it's waaaaay faster than Fedora's "yum" ... :wink:
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Re: No More xorg.conf files?

Postby rerushg on Tue May 08, 2007 9:40 am

D1Wayne wrote:Hopefully No More dang xorg.conf files


Well maybe not just yet please.
For us guys running 1080i TV setups with Nvidia, xorg.conf is the only way to get running.

Alleged "bug" (according to NV) is failure of NV driver to properly validate standard 1080i modes from EDID info. Driver wants 120hz vertical refresh and it just ain't gonna happen. Standard (almost universal) is 60hz. Disabling mode validation checks and using custom modeline is the only way to get going.
I say "alleged" because I suspect that it's a "commercial marketing bug". Bug has been around for 3 driver upgrades with no fix. Suspect that "bug" is intended to limit new Linux user migration on high def displays while NV pushes hard on new DX10 cards with Vista.
Things are rather pleasant here in LinuxLand but in WinWorld, well, you know, business is business.
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Postby D1Wayne on Tue May 08, 2007 2:34 pm

one could run without the xorg.conf file, but that puts you with limited display options. 7.3 is supposed to be better, and allow for partial sections/options and custom functionality, without all they other bagage needed to be explicitly defined in the conf, currently (up to 7,2) on edgy and feisty thus bianca it appears to be a all or nothing situation.

feisty does not like my 6150 mobo nvidia mpc51 chipset livecd is 800x600 or nothing. can not even get to install next buttons without dragging panels to sides instead of top and bottom.

waiting to see if cassandra does this to me as well
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Postby Boo on Tue May 08, 2007 11:12 pm

Ah Hmm!! :evil:

YUM stands for Yellow dog Update Manager.

Give credit where credit is due: Thanks Yellow dog for fixing up redhats rpm mess.

Redhat/fedora ditched up2date for YUM because it is so cool for rpms.
Yes slow but it works.

:D

And do not forget Yellow Dog runs on PS3. :twisted:
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Now where was i going? Oh yes, crazy!
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Postby hairy_Palms on Sat May 12, 2007 8:17 am

so does ubuntu, and therefore i asssume mint :)
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