Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby Kendall on Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:19 pm

AlbertP wrote:If you're rewriting applications, then you could also re-write them in another language. Software Manager, for example, consumes an awful lot of memory: 150MB. And Mintmenu needs 30MB and always loads as latest panel item because it's written in Python.

I don't handle those apps. The ones I handle are for other projects, notably the Ice application in Peppermint, which uses pygtk and consumes very little memory. I'd like to see some stuff re-coded in something like Vala maybe, but Clem ultimately makes the decisions regarding the vast majority of the Mint tools. Python is slower than many of the compiled languages such as C, Vala, C++, etc but it's still pretty darn quick for simple scripts.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby Nexus on Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:56 pm

tdockery97 wrote:Thanks to a couple of the above posters for making something clear. Those of us who have been vocally criticising Gnome 3 don't hate Gnome 3. We dislike Gnome Shell. As long as we can still have our normal panels and/or preferred docks and such, with the same configuration we have now, then there is nothing to be afraid of and no reason to move away from Gnome.


Shell isn't that bad once you start exploring some of the extensions and such people have started making for it. If I want to reverse the top bar and the pop-up bar that's usually on the bottom, np one Extension does it. If the Mint team wanted make a Gnome 3 w/shell setup look and act very similar to what they have with Gnome 2 they can do it largely through using a custom extension and shell themes.


Now what I don't get though is all the people who are so in love with the idea of Linux Distributions joining the mainstream OS market, yet can't grasp that what Unity and Gnome 3 w/Shell are doing is adopting the direction that Operating Systems are heading towards first. Have any of you see what's in store for Windows 8? Heard rumours about what apple plans to do with OSX? They both are playing catch up to what Gnome, and Canonical have brought to the table.

Hate it or not, this is the direction that Home Computing is heading, we can either keep pace or get left behind.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby linuxviolin on Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:21 pm

Nexus wrote:Shell isn't that bad once you start exploring some of the extensions and such people have started making for it. If I want to reverse the top bar and the pop-up bar that's usually on the bottom, np one Extension does it. If the Mint team wanted make a Gnome 3 w/shell setup look and act very similar to what they have with Gnome 2 they can do it largely through using a custom extension and shell themes.

The Shell and GNOME 3 are stupidity. And the need for extensions is another proof of that. You should/could read my post here about GNOME 3...

Nexus wrote:Have any of you see what's in store for Windows 8? Heard rumours about what apple plans to do with OSX? They both are playing catch up to what Gnome, and Canonical have brought to the table.

I don't care about what Apple makes or is going to do. I will never buy one of their products. I hate them! Steve Jobs is a... (I prefer to stay polite) About Windows 8:

The familiar Windows desktop is still there if you want it – and if you want to run existing software such as Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop, you certainly can do.

When you’re running existing programs, Windows 8 works just like Windows 7, and it will run on the same hardware. In fact, Microsoft is working hard to make Windows more efficient, so if you already have – or plan to buy – a PC that runs Windows 7 or Vista, then Windows 8 should feel slightly better. It’s just that your PC will be able to run two types of applications — desktop and immersive — instead of just one.

(What you need to know about Windows 8)

Nexus wrote:Hate it or not, this is the direction that Home Computing is heading, we can either keep pace or get left behind.

If really so, I prefer "get left behind" I guess... :roll:
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby exploder on Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:18 pm

The familiar Windows desktop is still there if you want it – and if you want to run existing software such as Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop, you certainly can do.

When you’re running existing programs, Windows 8 works just like Windows 7, and it will run on the same hardware. In fact, Microsoft is working hard to make Windows more efficient, so if you already have – or plan to buy – a PC that runs Windows 7 or Vista, then Windows 8 should feel slightly better. It’s just that your PC will be able to run two types of applications — desktop and immersive — instead of just one.


Sounds like Microsoft is taking a more conservative approach to change.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby michaelzap on Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:55 pm

Nexus wrote:Shell isn't that bad once you start exploring some of the extensions and such people have started making for it. If I want to reverse the top bar and the pop-up bar that's usually on the bottom, np one Extension does it. If the Mint team wanted make a Gnome 3 w/shell setup look and act very similar to what they have with Gnome 2 they can do it largely through using a custom extension and shell themes.

This +1

Gnome Shell is designed to be customized using extensions, and the Mint team could ship a totally different desktop experience from vanilla Gnome Shell.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby ThistleWeb on Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:05 pm

Apparently the Gnome team are as crazy as Steve Jobs in their belief that they've provided you the perfect desktop experience, that it's sacrilege to sully it by daring to modify it in any way. Thankfully people have chosen to ignore that and go ahead and offer extensions that change Gnome 3 in various ways. I don't know if the Gnome devs have given up their futile attempts to thwart central communities around extensions officially yet, or whether they officially still believe they know best. Either way it doesn't matter, extensions exist and will continue to exist and thrive, with or without the blessing of the Gnome devs.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby Nexus on Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:23 am

linuxviolin wrote:The Shell and GNOME 3 are stupidity. And the need for extensions is another proof of that. You should/could read my post here about GNOME 3...


So, there's a difference between people installing conky, enabling compiz effects, changing themes, adding Cairo-dock etc. and adding extensions that integrate tighter into the DE, use less system resources, and are much easier to customise by individuals thanks to use of CSS and Javascript?

I don't care about what Apple makes or is going to do. I will never buy one of their products. I hate them! Steve Jobs is a... (I prefer to stay polite) About Windows 8:

The familiar Windows desktop is still there if you want it – and if you want to run existing software such as Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop, you certainly can do.

When you’re running existing programs, Windows 8 works just like Windows 7, and it will run on the same hardware. In fact, Microsoft is working hard to make Windows more efficient, so if you already have – or plan to buy – a PC that runs Windows 7 or Vista, then Windows 8 should feel slightly better. It’s just that your PC will be able to run two types of applications — desktop and immersive — instead of just one.

(What you need to know about Windows 8)


And like with Win 8 you can use fall back mode, np. But keeping up or ahead of Windows and Apple (btw last rumour I heard Apple plans to make OSX more iOS like) is a good thing for Linux distributions. It's already been mentioned, the big players in the Distro world are adopting either Unity or Gnome 3, so sooner or later software that relies on gtk2 will be ported over, and support for gtk2 dropped. No amount of griping or complaining will stop it, no point in not adopting early since sooner or later the choice will come down to Unity/Gnome 3 or KDE for most of us. And honestly while I like the look of KDE it's too resource intensive for my tastes, on my system it's more sluggish than Windows.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby michaelzap on Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:01 pm

ThistleWeb wrote:Apparently the Gnome team are as crazy as Steve Jobs in their belief that they've provided you the perfect desktop experience, that it's sacrilege to sully it by daring to modify it in any way. Thankfully people have chosen to ignore that and go ahead and offer extensions that change Gnome 3 in various ways. I don't know if the Gnome devs have given up their futile attempts to thwart central communities around extensions officially yet, or whether they officially still believe they know best. Either way it doesn't matter, extensions exist and will continue to exist and thrive, with or without the blessing of the Gnome devs.

Wha? Where on earth did you get the idea that the Gnome devs DON'T want people to customize the DE? That's the whole reason that they created a completely extensible system!

Think of Gnome Shell as the Gnome devs' attempt to create the best DE (in their opinion) using the extensible system that they created. There will be others, as well as lots of modifications of Gnome Shell. I agree with people who complain that Gnome Shell doesn't work for everyone, and extensions are the way that this will be addressed.


Nexus wrote:
linuxviolin wrote:The Shell and GNOME 3 are stupidity. And the need for extensions is another proof of that. You should/could read my post here about GNOME 3...


So, there's a difference between people installing conky, enabling compiz effects, changing themes, adding Cairo-dock etc. and adding extensions that integrate tighter into the DE, use less system resources, and are much easier to customise by individuals thanks to use of CSS and Javascript?


+1

Or even panel applets. I mean c'mon you can't both complain that Gnome Shell isn't customizable enough and at the same time reject the system for customizing it.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby ThistleWeb on Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:25 pm

michaelzap wrote:
ThistleWeb wrote:Apparently the Gnome team are as crazy as Steve Jobs in their belief that they've provided you the perfect desktop experience, that it's sacrilege to sully it by daring to modify it in any way. Thankfully people have chosen to ignore that and go ahead and offer extensions that change Gnome 3 in various ways. I don't know if the Gnome devs have given up their futile attempts to thwart central communities around extensions officially yet, or whether they officially still believe they know best. Either way it doesn't matter, extensions exist and will continue to exist and thrive, with or without the blessing of the Gnome devs.

Wha? Where on earth did you get the idea that the Gnome devs DON'T want people to customize the DE? That's the whole reason that they created a completely extensible system!

Think of Gnome Shell as the Gnome devs' attempt to create the best DE (in their opinion) using the extensible system that they created. There will be others, as well as lots of modifications of Gnome Shell. I agree with people who complain that Gnome Shell doesn't work for everyone, and extensions are the way that this will be addressed.


I heard about it on the Linux Outlaws podcast. http://linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/214. The source is this post http://lwn.net/Articles/447457/. They discuss it at the 1hr 20min mark in that episode; enjoy.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby linuxviolin on Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:28 pm

Nexus wrote:you can use fall back mode, np.

The fallback mode is not the same thing that running GNOME 2. And it is not sure it will be there all the time...

Nexus wrote:So, there's a difference between people installing conky, enabling compiz effects, changing themes, adding Cairo-dock etc.

I never use Compiz, I hate it, it is also stupidity. Never use some docks, I hate the Mac look. Etc. :wink:

Nexus wrote:integrate tighter into the DE, use less system resources,

:lol: Just to remind you that for instance Windows NT 4.0 Workstation was able to run on a 486/25 with 12 MB of RAM... Happy time.

michaelzap wrote:Or even panel applets.

They are not exactly the same thing...
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby AlbertP on Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:10 am

Windows NT 4.0 can run on such a low-end computer, but when running any program you need much more; many Windows components (.dll files) suddenly get loaded into memory, plus the program itself. And then you need much more RAM.
But agreed, a computer with 512 MB RAM can run NT 4.0 much smoother than Mint 11 Gnome.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby rjs on Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:34 am

I've always tweaked linux for performance based on whatever hardware I put together. To me, Unity, Gnome3/Shell and what I'm seeing (have installed and tried) is just non essential bloatware that does little to bring a quality linux desktop experience to the masses. XFCE is the desktop of the future on this end as long as the developers continue to see the value in what it currently is. XFCE 4.8 made it even easier to not want or need gnome. Unity is just out of the question. Some say they like it, I'll never understand how or why.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby MALsPa on Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:37 am

rjs wrote:Unity is just out of the question. Some say they like it, I'll never understand how or why.


I can now understand why some like it; but I can also understand why others probably never will! :lol:
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby thatsallurspaceships on Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:09 pm

Dolphins and Apes might use it, me not!
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby recluce on Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:24 pm

mazzy wrote:
ThistleWeb wrote:
christoff522 wrote:I dont see whats wrong with gnome2, why change something that works. If there was a necessity for change..I never heard or saw anything about this. It follows a specific line..taskbar, start button, window list, systray, clock. These work, now suddenly we have plunged upon us something that looks like it comes from some kids education CDROM. activities? seriously? Its totally unintuitive, the system tray is at the bottom? yes the menu button at the top called activities??? The thing is, when you restrict users, they will want to try something else, Gnome3 is restrictive, if i had discovered linux in 07 and they were using gnome3, I would have vomited and then thrown in my Windows xp disc. If mint goes to gnome3, knowing better these days i will just use debian.

Unity just sucks, end of. nuff said.


Gnome 2 is nearing EOL, switching to Debian won't change that. All it will do is buy some extra time to remain with a DE that will be extinct. Gnome 3 isn't a separate project by Gnome, it's what Gnome to and it's devs are moving to. All the Gnome based distros will have a choice to make, either move to Gnome 3 (with or without the Gnome-Shell interface so many like to diss as a kids smartphone UI) or abandon Gnome altogether. My guess is that almost all of them will go for Gnome 3 in what's being called "fallback mode" right now, which amounts to a Gnome 2 layout, with GTK3, so the differences will be minimal from Gnome 2.

[snip]


All of your points are valid but in my opinion, Gnome 3 is not ready and switching to it wont change things either. I'm happy with the Mint's team commitment to waiting it out with Gnome 2 in the mean time and I'll be coming over to this side of the fence as soon as I get the time to reformat.

Gnome 2 is super polished and functional - and the Microsoft style decision to rewrite everything for Gnome 3 means that it may be a couple of years before Gnome 3 is as polished a DE. All I'm looking for is a distro that is willing to wait until its ready and not force me to be a beta tester.


What "mazzy" writes sums it up very nicely for me. Let others experience the breakage and frustration of the early Gnome 3 - and let Mint keep the super-polished Gnome 2 just a little bit longer. Once Gnome 3 gains a bit of polish, by all means - as long as we retain the choice between a classic, Gnome2-like environment and whatever noob-friendly smartphone-look will be the alternative (Unity, Gnome3).

While I can't speak for anybody else, I am moving over from Ubuntu (slowly, 10.04 LTS is still my main OS) to avoid Unity and keep my current productivity (which relies on a desktop environment, not a smartphone simulation).
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby bushguy42 on Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:13 am

recluce wrote:
While I can't speak for anybody else, I am moving over from Ubuntu (slowly, 10.04 LTS is still my main OS) to avoid Unity and keep my current productivity (which relies on a desktop environment, not a smartphone simulation).


You can't, but it seems to be a recurring theme. Unity and overlay scrollbars were my main deterrent. When I installed Ubuntu 11.04, I was totally horrified to see how they had wrecked a perfectly good distro, and wanted 10.10 back. I managed to disable Unity, but the system was still slow and clunky compared to the earlier release.

I hope that LMDE doesn't go that way eventually, or I'll have to change again.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby chrnoble on Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:14 pm

The perspective of a "casual computer guy":
I recently tried out Fedora 15. I found that, while it's certainly a different feel, Gnome 3 is preferable to Unity. It's my impression that it's not quite ready for a more casual user, but I was encouraged by how stable it actually was. Customization *is* kind of a pain, but I actually quite liked the shell's look as it was.
Unity, on the other hand, only got a day's trial out of me. Finding and getting to things was a pain. Also, to be honest, I'm not a fan of docks, which is essentially what Unity features. I suppose I should have given it the same chance as Gnome 3, but Fedora is supposed to be the more "cutting edge" OS, so I'm more willing to cut it slack (as opposed to the "it just works" Ubuntu).
I did ultimately go back to Mint 10 (I've found Mint 11 a bit too buggy). It's a comfort level thing, I suppose. When Mint goes the way of Gnome 3, which I assume it will, I'm not particularly worried. I'm sure Gnome 3 will have been around long enough at that point to have been tweaked.
Just my two cents.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby MrD on Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:39 pm

Frankly, I'd prefer a lightweight system using less resources, less power. With the rising cost of electricity nowadays I don't want something speeding up my fans, needing a powerful, energy sucking GPU to run the desktop. It's quite easy to customise desktops to something acceptable, if not pretty.

The average user does not require bells and whistles. Gamers only make up 10% of the household market. Sharing an OS onto a phone is a good idea and will lead to smaller units that are portable and handle your life better. (Beats a pocket full of crumpled Post-It notes.)

But yes, a fallback is perhaps necessary during any bedding in period. I remember when Windows came out I was dropping to DOS to perform certain tasks due to unfamiliarity.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby tdockery97 on Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:30 pm

bushguy42 wrote:I hope that LMDE doesn't go that way eventually, or I'll have to change again.

It will and it is. The Gnome 3 bits are already coming in upgrades. It's only a matter of maybe 6-12 months and LMDE based on Debian Testing will have the Gnome 3 shell desktop. The only way to avoid it is to use LMDE XFCE, LXDE, Fluxbox, or KDE. Personally I have opted for KDE.
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Re: Will mint stop using gnome 2.32 in next release?

Postby Larkshall on Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:46 pm

I am just in the process of casting off from Ubuntu because of V11.04 and Unity. What a stupid name to pick, it has caused dis-unity among Ubuntu users. I am mooring up with Mint, but it looks like being temporary if the same thing happens here.
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