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Questions about the project and the distribution - obviously no support questions here please

Postby scorp123 on Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:17 pm

marcus0263 wrote:Google is a wonderful thing isn't it ;-)
As a matter of fact, I did hear the term "doors" before ... but that was ages ago. And when you asked about this I thought "confused, where did I hear that before .. ???" :D And I didn't google, I used Wikipedia :lol: Hey, but at least I'm honest here. So when I saw that this was about "Slowlaris" it all came back to my mind. I haven't had the joy of using Solaris since October 2000 ... when I last changed by job. My employer back then was a total Sun shop, totally "SUN everything". But my current employer (Oct. 2000 until now) is totally "anti-SUN" ... we're more or less a HP-UX and Linux shop here. And HP-UX ... oh well, you install it once and then you don't touch it for the next or so decade :D It's way too ugly. Rock-solid, yes. But ugly as hell from a user experience point of view :D ...

And I really don't remember ever having seen the concept of doors outside of Solaris. Even in Solaris it's just used for nscd and some other rather obscure stuff .. at least the man pages don't really give lots of info as far as I remember. As I said, I haven't messed around with Solaris for ages.

You don't really use that doors stuff in every-day apps or something like that, right? Chances are you probably googled this stuff too, right? :lol:
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Postby marcus0263 on Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:47 pm

scorp123 wrote:As a matter of fact, I did hear the term "doors" before ... but that was ages ago. And when you asked about this I thought "confused, where did I hear that before .. ???" :D And I didn't google, I used Wikipedia :lol: Hey, but at least I'm honest here.

;-)
scorp123 wrote:So when I saw that this was about "Slowlaris"
Nowthing more than perspective and role, nothing beats Sun when it comes down to threads, not to mention hot swappable CPU's

You may want to also check out dtrace and ZFS ;-)


scorp123 wrote:it all came back to my mind. I haven't had the joy of using Solaris since October 2000 ... when I last changed by job. My employer back then was a total Sun shop, totally "SUN everything". But my current employer (Oct. 2000 until now) is totally "anti-SUN" ... we're more or less a HP-UX and Linux shop here. And HP-UX ... oh well, you install it once and then you don't touch it for the next or so decade :D
Like I said above it comes down to the role, you don't swat a fly with a sledge hammer you know

scorp123 wrote:It's way too ugly. Rock-solid, yes. But ugly as hell from a user experience point of view :D ...
Totally different worlds here

scorp123 wrote:And I really don't remember ever having seen the concept of doors outside of Solaris. Even in Solaris it's just used for nscd and some other rather obscure stuff .. at least the man pages don't really give lots of info as far as I remember. As I said, I haven't messed around with Solaris for ages.
;-)

scorp123 wrote:You don't really use that doors stuff in every-day apps or something like that, right? Chances are you probably googled this stuff too, right? :lol:
If I did google for it where did I even come up with the concept? ;-)
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Postby scorp123 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:50 am

marcus0263 wrote: Nowthing more than perspective and role, nothing beats Sun when it comes down to threads, not to mention hot swappable CPU's. You may want to also check out dtrace and ZFS ;-)
Yeah, heard about those things from others who still use Sun machines ... 8)

scorp123 wrote:If I did google for it where did I even come up with the concept? ;-)
Unix Geek 101? :D Just kidding :wink:
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Postby marcus0263 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:02 am

scorp123 wrote:Yeah, heard about those things from others who still use Sun machines ... 8)

Yeah like Banks, Government, Investment house's and others that rely on 0 downtime and computing power ;-)
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Postby scorp123 on Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:51 am

marcus0263 wrote:Yeah like Banks, Government, Investment house's
Nope, I was talking about colleagues, former coworkers and other friends of mine who are still working for SUN-shops. But as I said, SUN is a big "NO" where I work. Oh well, those SuperDomes are nice too ... :D
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Postby keithdw on Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:57 pm

Scorp123, thanks for the detailed response to my post. You certainly give a lot of food for thought. I guess I'm just having difficulty with the transition from Windows XP to Linux.

There are a few things I'd like to say in my defence.

* I am not a huge Windows fan (I use it because I know how it works and know how to make it do what I want) & have no intention at the moment converting to Vista. It is Vista that has prompted me to try Linux, so I can avoid it. Plus I've heard a lot about Linux and wanted to see what the fuss was about.
* Ubuntu was recommended to me by a friend and that is why I installed that first; I thought they were all the same, just different colour schemes and backgroups. I never realised there were fundamental differences between distributions, after all they're all Linux!
* I did NOT fail to read a message and just click install, thereby removing lots of important files and rendering my installation useless. I tried to install some bug fixed files following the instructions on the Ubuntu forums. This completed, but produced an error message in Synaptic about broken links (or something). Anyway, the error message said to type a command into a terminal window to fix the problem (why would I doubt this would be the correct thing to do?). Having typed this and pressed enter, there was a lot of HDD activity and then my machine was trashed!
* I have not had to reinstall Windows on any of my PC's for several years and have never suffered from a virus or serious spyware infection (but then I am careful, as we all should be). I did not loose any data in the Linux fiasco as I didn't trust it enough to have any data stored there, all my data has always been saved in a separate data partition.

I shall definitely take a look at the 'Linux for Dummies' book you recommend and shall look at some of the other distributions you mention Linspire and Xandros (neither of which I've ever heard of before). I want to make a success of Linux and ditch Windows once and for all, I'm just struggling with the change / differences, just stuck in my ways I suppose...

Just one last thought, and whether this is right or not I don't know, but I know Windows gets a lot of bad press about viruses and spyware. But, is this not just a product of it's success. If OS X or Linux was installed on 90% of the worlds desktop PC's, the virus and spyware writers would concentrate their efforts on these OS's and maybe these would then be suffering just as many attacks? If you got your wish and mainstream PC builders started to ship PC's with Linux installed, would Linux be in the same position as Windows in a few years time. After all, I've noticed I get automatic updates to my Linux distribution on a daily basis (I presume plugging holes). Indeed a few days ago there were 72 separate items updates, I've never known Windows do an update that big, even after switching to just releasing fixes once a month!
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Postby scorp123 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:00 pm

keithdw wrote:JIf OS X or Linux was installed on 90% of the worlds desktop PC's, the virus and spyware writers would concentrate their efforts on these OS's and maybe these would then be suffering just as many attacks?
Sorry ... but this is nonsense!!

1.) Lack of needed security holes in UNIX-like OS

First of all, there simply are none of the security holes that Windows has. Don't get me wrong: There are security holes in Linux (DUH! it was written by us flawed and imperfect humans! Obviously it cannot be perfect in this case!) but it still takes human intelligence to exploit them. No script-kiddie can download a "virus construction kit" as for Windows, click click click with the mouse and voila, we have the next stupid VBScript virus that auto-propagates from system to system and brings the Internet to a crawl .... Nope! Simply not possible.

There was a time where UNIX-like OS had all the viruses ... I shall just mention the Morris Worm, probably the first-ever Internet worm that spread from mail system to mail system ... But that was almost 20 years ago!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm

And believe me: In the UNIX world people learn their lessons from security fiascos. The Morris worm simply wouldn't work today anymore, as most of the mechanisms it relied upon (finger, rsh, unencrypted passwords ...) are simply not used anymore ... people ditched that stuff out of UNIX because of that worm and replaced everything with more secure defaults.

And Microsoft?? They still use some of the same brain-dead mechanisms in XP and now in Vista that is causing computers to get infected again and again. NetBIOS, SMB and some other very antique network protocols that were exploited and abused time and time again. Did they ditch that BS? Nope, with XP Service Pack 2 they came up with that joke of a firewall which wouldn't even be necessary if they wouldn't be so stupid and run those unwanted services in the first place!! (BTW --- That's at the same time the very reason why you can have Ubuntu and/or Mint and other Linux distros running and why you most of the time don't need a firewall: you ain't running any services ... so there is nothing that would need to be protected. Simple logic :wink: )


2.) Linux and its UNIX-ish brethren ARE an interesting target

Need an example?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_Backbone_DDoS_Attacks

UNIX-like operating systems run most of the web servers, most if not all of the mail transfer agent servers (MTA = those servers which transfer zillions of mails between the various domains! The sheer workload would make any Windoze machine to crumble!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_transfer_agent

And they last but not least run most of the DNS servers, particularly: The root DNS servers. No root DNS = No Internet at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_nameserver

You basically said "If Linux were more popular maybe virus authors would concentrate their efforts more on this OS" ... Linux is popular! Especially in the server rooms. And all those idiots and cyber-vandals are trying hard every day to cause mayhem. And guess what? Nothing has happened so far. I agree, here and there a web site gets broken into and defaced, but that's mickey mouse BS compared to the virus floods you get on Windoze.

You assume just because you haven't seen Linux on 90% of the desktops that it is less exposed to all those cyber-threats? You are so wrong. Linux (and other UNIX-like OS such as the various BSD variants) are enjoying an extreme popularity amongst us admin folks. We are running your web servers on those OS, we are running your business databases on it, we are running your e-shops on it (Amazon!), we are running your mail servers on it (the MTA's ... the servers that really deliver the mails to their destinations ... not that MS Exchange mickey mouse $hit that people love to use because they can sync their stupid calendars!), we are running your telecom billing applications on it .... you are surrounded by UNIX-like OS (and probably have been all your life) and you just didn't realise it yet. :wink:

Again: Why are so many viruses written for Windows? Because people can get those stupid programs to work there!

My theory --- to counter your's:
Even if Windows were only installed on 10% of all desktops you'd still suffer from virus and spyware floods again and again. Simply because viruses can be made to work on Windows;


Good luck with that on Linux or on FreeBSD or any other UNIX-like OS for that matter. People would have released viruses long ago if they could have done it. Just all those businesses who are betting the house and the farm and everything on UNIX-like servers would have been an interesting target for such people. :wink:

Regards,
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Postby marcus0263 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:20 pm

Yeah the FUD spread by Microsoft is funny. It all comes down to the fact that from the core the Microsoft OS is flawed, the concept of userland is so foreign to Microsoft. Users have WAY to much control and access to the kernel it's pathetic, can we say DirectX, ActiveX, etc.. Just browsing a webpage will infect your MS Windows is PATHETIC!

Users in Unix and Unix like OS's do not have write permissions to core OS functions unless they are root. The modular design is the beauty, were the monolithic approach of Microsoft is a security nightmare. I spent a few years with one of the Major Anti-Virus Companies, Visual Basic aka VB is known as "Virus Basic". Then let's take a look at Sony BMG's Rootkit fiasco, just putting a music CD in as a user will install a root kit?????? Won't happen with Unix or Unix like OS like Linux. Am I saying impossible, no nothing is impossible, if someone knows something like Assembler they might be able to come up with something. But it sure won't be a punk script kiddy like in the Microsoft world. Microsoft makes things just too damn easy to write virus's, worms, trojans, rootkits, etc.....

So what machines are part of the Spammers Botnets, sure arn't any *nix machines.

Prime example of the sloppiness of Microsoft, how often do you have to defrag?
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Postby carlos on Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:33 pm

Wow that was some serious windozes smack-down. All excellent points. I'm like Kieth in that I've been a lifetime windoze user. But thankfully having worked on the web for most of my career I've been exposed to unix like systems but for what ever reason, I always felt that it wasn't great for what I needed as a desktop, and maybe back then that was the truth. Not so in the last few years.

Marcus pretty much nailed it, there is alot of FUD out there and its a matter of us new users getting more educated and comfortable with linux. I also use OSX which I think is better then windoze, but its more of the same in that they lock you down in proprietary hell. Hence my jump in linux.

As you can tell I'm into using multimedia apps, the transition hasn't been too bad, I'm finding some of the open source apps to be superior to what is considered to be the industry standard. Unfortunately linux still needs to advance further when it comes to multimedia applications, but I feel that will only be a matter of time. But, that's just me nit picking from my limited experience.

So far linux is completely great and does most of everything I need. Bear with us windoze converts it will take some time and persistence on our part to shake years of windoze usage.

I recommend any lwindoze convert read this article Linux is NOT windows (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm). Its helped me get my mind wrapped around the way things get done in linux. Anyway knowledge is power, so thanks for helping out us beginners. Just be gentle and keep fighting the good fight.
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Postby marcus0263 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:06 am

Carlos, a very good article the sum's it up very well. People who complain that Linux doesn't act like Window's at first were funny, now they just irritate me. Linux has endless features that you can customize to your own liking, that's what attracts people to it, but then for some reason they not only think but demand that it does it completely for them. If someone wants to learn I'll do what I can for them and I myself learn from others. That's what makes it such a great hobby and intriguing.

So it all boils down to what I myself tell others. You want something that you can download, install and have the tools to pretty much do what ever you want to do, go with Linux. But be prepared to spend a little bit of time learning the "Right" way, if not buy a Mac. I just choose not to get boxed in and have things like DRM, EULA's etc. tell me what I can do with my own stuff.



Cheers
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Postby nick on Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:11 am

"If OS X or Linux was installed on 90% of the worlds desktop PC's, the virus and spyware writers would concentrate their efforts on these OS's"

That is pure FUD from M$, the hackers would always target the least secure sytem,why,because they can.

If there where 98 xyxxy Banks in a town with watertight security, and 2 aaabc banks in the same town with lousy security, which banks, pro-rata would get robbed more often?


As for Vista
"Very Severe Hole" In Vista UAC Design"
http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/02/13/1922237.shtml
:) :) :)
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Postby quickstart on Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:09 pm

If Linux/UNIX can be infected with viruses and trojans, wouldn't the anti-virus companies have proved this beyond doubt by now?

I've always suspected they write half the damn things anyway... :wink:

And if someone did write an effective Linux virus, wouldn't these companies have to make the anti-virus freely available??

For the record, in all the time I've surfed the internet with Linux, I get the occasional pop up or banner advert, that's all. And believe me, I've tried some really dodgy sites just to try this out. :shock:

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Postby Uncle Bob on Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:13 pm

quickstart wrote:I've always suspected they write half the damn things anyway... :wink:


Dude, they write at least 95% of it; that's how they keep themselves in business, else they would have closed shop long time ago!

The other 4% is written by bored Linux Developers because they CAN and just to annoy Bill Gates because he wears crappy glasses, and the remaining 1% by written by Aliens.
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Postby clem on Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:35 pm

Don't viruses write viruses as well ? I thought these stuff were smart! :)
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Postby mintero on Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:04 am

Hi, keithdw

You could give Mepis a try. It uses the desktop KDE. I think Mepis is more complete than Mint. (more good software preinstalled, firewall, superuser mode entry, repairing functions on the CD etc) Unfortunately my old computer needs a lighter desktop and so I prefered Mint which uses Gnome.

Mint is a good distro, you can add all you need, but if you are newbie, the truth is that you dont know how to do it.

I understand you, when you say you have lost much time with linux. One must learn manuals, google and visit forums in order to learn how to manage it well. But if you think "long term" it is better than Windows (security, stability, freedom of choice, lower costs for professional use etc)

I lost much time at the beginning, because I hadnt organized my time. I think the best way for a smooth transition is
1. sticking with the old OS until having learned the new one
2. install a user-friendly distro (dual boot) and register to its site for help
3. sparing a little time everyday or on the weekends to learn the new OS

Good luck!
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