I really wanted to like it....

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I really wanted to like it....

Postby bulsatar on Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:28 pm

So I tried Linux out for a couple months, did some coding to get my wacom to work, setup a Mint mount and a separate Win mount so I can boot into either and I also setup my drives so data could be easily shared between my Linux side and my Windows side. Then I started looking at programs to use in Wine or replace with something else so that I can totally get off Win (cuz I REALLY do hate MS) and I got stymied. To be honest, I got tired of fighting to get things done in Linux where in Win all it took was a click or two. I got tired of learning commands for the CLI (and I really don't care how much you deny it, for first time users it sux! Took me 6 hours to score the internet to see how to "properly" mount my mint on a hard drive and separate out all of the space allocations cuz I had no idea what to give them and went thru the process 3 times.) and I was frustrated on not being able to port programs that I paid for.

These are really similar complaints that I have had with Blender and one of the main proponents of Blender released a part 1 that addresses very very very similar downfalls of Linux (even the much touted Mint as being the easiest to move from Win to. I dread to see the others...). I am not saying any of this to bash Linux, I really do want to switch. But I am going to wait until it is more user friendly.

This guy does a very good job of outlining the pitfalls of poor user interfaces. Hope this reaches a couple of the developers. You guys do a great job and am only saying all of this because I want to see the desktop side of Linux be just as successful as the smartphone side (cuz android rocks the socks off of the other crap OS's!!!). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYiiD-p2q80
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby Crewp on Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:25 pm

Very good video, I hope the dev's give it a look. We all never stop learning. 8)
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby InkKnife on Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:32 pm

I switched to Mint about a year and a half ago from OSX. I made the jump successfully with just Photoshop CS2 running in WINE.
My observation about development on Linux is that it seems like the smaller projects and most distro developers are very friendly and interested in courteous feedback. The big project teams that are trying to make pro level apps are a completely different story if my experience and observations are any guide.
Teams like Blender and the GIMP are VERY hostile to any criticism and I ran away from the GIMP forums with my tail between my legs after making some suggestions. I think the bad UI choices made by these teams reflects the way they exist in a walled off echo chamber away from any significant community influence.
It seems to me that there is a direct connection between great community involvement and a good UI. I think Mint is a great example of that and apps like the GIMP are what you end up with when feedback is not respected.
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby Crewp on Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:53 am

Well said Ink. good post. :D
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby ninomrki on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:39 am

I too really wanted to like it and I ended up loving it. My wife hates it, which just makes me love it more.

On a serious note; I don't think Linux Mint is not user friendly. I am no expert and it took me 15 minutes to see that I can use Mint when I first booted it from the live DVD. I installed Mint on my PC because I wanted to test Linux to see what it looks like. It was just my curiosity that led me here and I liked Linux so much that I decided to uninstall Windows from my PC and use nothing but Linux from now on. I do understand that Linux takes some getting used to (I've been trough that myself), but so did Windows. Nobody sat at the computer for the first time and new how to use it no matter what OS was installed on it. Linux is different then Windows, some things work differently then in Windows and there are things that Windows does "better", but it might also seem that way because you are used to Windows' way of how things work.

As for the software you payed for that doesn't work in Linux; you can't blame Linux for it. Blame the developer of the software. I don't buy that "we don't make software for Linux because a small number of people use Linux" excuse. That is a stupid excuse because the main reason "a small number of people" use Linux lies in the fact that developers don't make software for Linux. Honestly, why would anybody pay for an OS (Windows or Mac) if they could get the software they need to run in a free OS (like Linux)? The reason why "you got tired of fighting to get things done in Linux where in Win all it took was a click or two" isn't the fact that Linux isn't user friendly or that Windows is a better or more user friendly OS. The reason why everything works "better" in Windows is the fact that developers are bending over backwards to make their stuff run smoothly in Windows. That is why Windows is still the number one OS in the world even though it's not worth the price they ask for it even when you get it for free with the PC you bought. It's not hard to be number one when everyone is ignoring your competition.

I've been using Linux for almost a year now and I got used to the interface. Now Windows interface looks like crap to me. Getting used to Linux wasn't hard for me. I have only two topics that I started in this forum since I joined (in January) and that is the only 2 things I wasn't able to figure out by myself so far. So much for Linux Mint not being user friendly.
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby InkKnife on Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:24 pm

I want to be clear that I think Mint is fantastic.
When I dumped OSX for Mint I never looked back, no duel booting. I been 100% Mint since I switched. My only cheat is Photoshop in WINE.
Mint is different than OSX so there was a learning curve but in many ways Mint is better than OSX.
Clem is like a modest Steve Jobs, clearly a man of great talent and vision but unlike Jobs, Clem is not burdened by an ego the size of Texas.
I have come to really love the Linux community in general and since I do care I will be critical about areas I think need attention.
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby Otyugh on Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:10 pm

All of you are saying "linux" while GNU is the big thing.
Linux is just a kernel that happens to be more used than freeBSD or the unfinished Hurd. But as user, you'd notice nothing different.

So just say GNU/linux ! :lol:

And personaly, I can't do anything with windows. The batch scripting is quite poor and unfriendly. I can't customize anything. Each app is a treat. Each download is a treat. My antivirus slows me down, and tell me there is treats.
I just don't feel safe ! And you should feel the same. Because windows sends datas all the time, and you never know what he is doing. This is insane.

OSX is very close to Mint, as I feel it, they are on a UNIX structure, and both are focused on the "user friendly" and "design". Without having to pay anything, we could get something really "cleaner" with more user. At the end of the day : more users, more developpers, more debugging, more fonctionalities, more more.

If you think there is too much bugs in there ; just declare the bugs, and clean the way for the others yourself ! Helping and saving others day feels good.
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby dee. on Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:04 pm

Otyugh wrote:All of you are saying "linux" while GNU is the big thing.
Linux is just a kernel that happens to be more used than freeBSD or the unfinished Hurd. But as user, you'd notice nothing different.


Except that hardware support would be even worse, you'd be hard pressed to find support for most hardware that you can run on Linux... WiFi wouldn't work, drivers would be hit and miss, don't even think about laptops...

Otyugh wrote:So just say GNU/linux


No, I'm just going to say Linux, insisting otherwise is pointless pedantry because everyone knows what is meant from the context.
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby Otyugh on Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:18 am

As you wish. Good for you if you knew for theses. It's seem obvious for me, that you can use linux without knowing what it is implying.

I will not give my hand for this, but, isn't all the major part of developpers working on GNU project and not linux, basically ?
I'm not sure to understand why we say linux which is secondary in my mind. Because yeah, saying the two is quite pedant. Nice pedantery, though.
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby dee. on Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:22 pm

Otyugh wrote:As you wish. Good for you if you knew for theses. It's seem obvious for me, that you can use linux without knowing what it is implying.


Usually, people say "Linux" when they mean a Linux-based OS, and "Linux kernel" when they talk about the kernel specifically.

I will not give my hand for this, but, isn't all the major part of developpers working on GNU project and not linux, basically ?


The Linux kernel is literally the largest software project in the history of mankind. There's more work, more lines of code, contributed to it than any other software, open or proprietary.
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby Otyugh on Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:55 pm

Largest project individually. But all GNUs projects are like, thousands and thousands time bigger, right ?

And, for the kernel part, I'm not sure the 50% of the linux user know what is a kernel. Also a linux based os is not the same as a gnu/linux one. Because it's not the same thing (uclibic, Busybox, BSD are linux, and not GNU).

Finally I think we both don't really care about theses details. At the end of the day, what we must not forget is the "GNU spirit". "Linux" alone is not carrying the ethical values I'd like to see, that's all.
Without that aspect, I'd rather stop promoting linux. Because it's not only a matter of "ease of use" and "productivity".
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby MartyMint on Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:46 pm

Otyugh wrote:(uclibic, Busybox, BSD are linux, and not GNU).



BSD is not Linux.
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby Otyugh on Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:50 pm

Passion makes you write too fast, you know ? :lol:
I was thinking to the applications adapted from BSD, not "just BSD". My bad ^^
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby dee. on Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:36 pm

Otyugh wrote:Largest project individually. But all GNUs projects are like, thousands and thousands time bigger, right ?


No.

And, for the kernel part, I'm not sure the 50% of the linux user know what is a kernel.


I'm quite sure most Linux users know what a kernel is. If you only count desktop Linux distros that is. If you count Android then the number is waaaaay less than 50...
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby Otyugh on Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:21 pm

dee. wrote:
Otyugh wrote:Largest project individually. But all GNUs projects are like, thousands and thousands time bigger, right ?

No.

Right, I'd learnt something. Have you any source ? I'd like to answer something more structured to my future contradictors ! (we don't all have your power of persuasion ! :mrgreen: )

For the kernel part, i'd maintain ; even if I very agree on the android part ! But the people that we talks with on forums, IRCs, and mails are somehow "the interested people", but there is others ! Grandma' checking at the weather, and my little brother checking facebook can't even explain what a software is :p ("digital native" is a joke !)
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby dee. on Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:35 am

Otyugh wrote:Right, I'd learnt something. Have you any source ?


Not as such, but you can count the developers in all GNU project vs. all kernel developers (there might be some overlap). There isn't a much better way of counting the difference. I'm reasonably sure however, that the GNU project isn't thousands of times larger than the Linux kernel.
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby bulsatar on Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:24 pm

Thanks for the input guys/ladies (hopefully there are some of the fairer sex around here...)

But I think you guys are kinda proving the point. I am not knocking the OS. On the surface, it is very easy to use (aside from initial setup because there is a little too much tech speak. Would be nice to have an "easy" button install and skip all of the tech setup that the more technical minded like.). However it took me about two weeks of screwing around with Mint 15 to try and get my wacom working. I ended up moving to Mint 13 to get it working regularly. Yes, I do realize that this is not the fault of the OS specifically, however when problems like these raise up it gets frustrating.

I have recently found virtual box and am working (slowly) with how to set that up for my Win programs I want to carry over that I can't figure out how to get to work in wine. And wine is another one that is difficult to use (again, in the perspective of this newbie).

I realize that the specialization and tweaking is what brought tech savy to the OS. All that is good and not knocking it. However for the general user, touching the command line or writing any kind of bash code is downright terrifying because we could screw up a ton and most help is given from the perspective of already know what the hell is being talked about in a tech fashion. And I think that is where Android is excelling and generally the Linux devs could improve on. It is easy to customize android for the ones that like that kind of thing but right out of the box, it is great for the general public and they never have to touch adb (I know it isn't exact, but a reasonable comparison to the cli).

Since I found virtualbox I am going to give it another try to go Linux as my main (and I still have it installed). Just threw this out into the midst as a mind worm for some devs (and even with all of this, they do an incredible job and am very grateful that there is an option that isn't based on big corp!!!)
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Re: I really wanted to like it....

Postby Otyugh on Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:06 pm

Playonlinux is also giving some few "pre-made" setup and scripts for a few major window's software.
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