Cinnamon, Gnome 3, XFCE, KDE, and the Death of Ubuntu

[TheGreatSudoku]

I've been a long time Debian user. I was a KDE user back in the 3.5 days. I liked how in the KDE 3.5 release you could configure damn near everything, from the color of the digital clock, to the system's default color scheme. I like having that wide range of control at my fingertips. Then one day when via apt-get upgrade, KDE 4.0 replaced KDE 3.5 on my system. I was outraged, I was shocked. I went form having a usable configurable desktop system that I really liked, to having an ugly black panel that I couldn't move, and couldn't change the color of. Lots of functional parts of KDE 3 no longer worked in KDE 4. In a huff I decided to try Gnome, to see if it had gotten any better since the first time I used it (In the days before Metacity when I used Enlightenment as it's window manager).

And Gnome HAD gotten better. It has become a lot more configurable. Like KDE 3,5 I had panels I could freely move around and put on any portion of the screen I wanted. There were a plethora of GTK2 themes to choose from, and I could customize the look of Gnome to my heart's content. Couple that with being able to run Gnome on top of Compiz and I was one happy camper in the Gnome camp.

And then one day on my LMDE-sid install via apt-get upgrade, my Gnome 2 install was replaced by Gnome 3. Deja Vu all over again! I could no longer use Compiz. The themes I had previously used in Gnome no longer worked. Much like the 4.0 release of KDE, I had an ugly black panel that I couldn't change the color or position of. Everything I liked about Gnome had been taken away. It took me all of about 15 minutes of using Gnome 3 before I downloaded XFCE-4 and left the Gnome camp all together.

XFCE suited my needs pretty well. Cosmetically it was very similar to Gnome 2. Compiz worked, I could use all my old GTK2 themes, icon themes, and mouse cursor themes again. I set up XFCE and had it looking and running exactly like my Gnome 2 install had looked. This suited me fine for a couple of months, but over those months a growing frustration for how "patchwork" XFCE is began brewing inside me. Every piece of XFCE feels modular, and in-cohesive, nothing really meshes together. Changing GTK theme, icons, mouse pointers isn't centralized in one app, but in 2 or 3 different ones. Thunar is a very minimalist file manager, and it took all of a day for me to ditch it in favor of Nautilus. And even then I was pining for Nautilus-Elementary, which isn't available for Debian. Eventually my frustration with using the cobbled-together interface of XFCE became overwhelming. After hearing one of the hosts of the Linux Mint Podcast continually extol the virtues of KDE, I decided it was time to give KDE 4 another spin.

KDE 4 has come a long way. I'm currently using 4.6.5 which is leaps and bounds better than the 4.0 release. Much like KDE 3.5, KDE 4.6.5 feels like a complete desktop environment. Everything just seems to mesh; gone is that cobbled together, patchwork interface feeling XFCE gave me. I can now change the look and location of KDE's panel. Icons and themes can now be changed in KDE. And configuration settings can all be handled from a central app. Aside from multiple wallpapers not working, KDE 4.6.5 integrates well with Compiz (despite having it's own built in compositor). I was pleasantly surprised when I fired up kopete and found webcam chats actually worked! Something that for years was promised as "coming soon" in gaim/pidgin but never delivered. Dolphin is also the kind of power-file-manager I need. The F6 hotkey to open up the current path is a GREAT feature! Being able to type in the path is a lifesaver, especially when dealing with hidden directories that begin with . I also LOVE being able to right click in my current folder and launch a terminal that puts me at the CLI right in the same directory Dolphin is in. KDE has come a long way since the 4.0 days, and thanks to Gnome's boneheadedness, I'm back in the KDE camp

Enter Cinnamon. Today I was able to install MockTurtle's Cinnamon build on LMDE. I fired it up and it shows promise, but is clearly in it's early stages, with many unimplemented features that are yet to come. While there is a small central control center app, the GUI for it looks ugly and unpolished, much in the same way XFCE's configuration GUIs look. I'm sure with some small tweaks this can be fixed. I love how the community has stepped up and developed a handful of themes for Cinnamon. While there's not a lot to choose from now, Cinnamon is still in it's infancy and I'm sure more themes will be available the more exposure Cinnamon gets. Does Cinnamon support multiple workspaces? If so I didn't see it. One annoyance with Cinnamon was after moving my panel to the top every time I'd go to click on the menu button (now in the upper left hand corner of my screen) it would activate a feature to show all open windows. I'm sure this can be moved/turned off but it's really damn annoying. Ah yes another common annoyance shared between XFCE and Cinnamon: I shouldn't have to google "strftime" just to set my time and date to a format I find sane. Checkboxes for 12/24 hour time, show seconds, show day/date etc. are much more user friendly than having to read up on what % codes I need to use. That's one biggie right there. Second biggie is it would be WONDERFUL if in Cinnamon's control center there were apps to change the GTK3 theme/icon theme/window decor. And the third biggie is to allow Cinnamon to run on top of compiz. Why reinvent the wheel when Compiz already offers a ton of desktop effects and enhancements out-of-the-box. Cinnamon shows a lot of promise and potential, I'm interested to see how much functionality it gains as it matures as a project. Should it ever reach the functionality and configurability of Gnome 2, it has the potential to be an Ubuntu-killer.

Let me rephrase that, when Cinnamon reaches Gnome 2 functionality/configurability levels, LMDE will be THE Ubuntu-killer. Ubuntu has already alienated a LARGE percentage of their userbase by ignoring all the complaints regarding the Unity interface, going ahead full force with it despite users disliking it. That pisses off the crowd that likes Gnome (2&3). Add to that Ubuntu's announcement that the KDE-based Kbuntu will no longer be funded. Ubuntu has just pissed off/abandoned BOTH their Gnome-loving AND KDE-loving users. Lots of unhappy Ubuntu users who liked Gnome have already made the switch to Mint's Main edition. KDE users of Ubuntu will soon be following suit. All it would take is a shift of focus by Linux Mint to kill Ubuntu; base the MAIN edition of Mint on Debian. The advantages are plenty:

• Debian testing is light years more stable than the pre-alpha quality packages that make into LTS Ubuntu releases
• Rolling release. Imagine the pleasant surprise of ex-Ubuntu users migrating to Mint and saying "you mean I DON'T have to reformat every 6 months just to stay current?"
• "Spinoff flavors" for Desktop Environments virtually take care of themselves. KDE, XFCE, LXDE, and Fluxbox are currently in Debian wheezy and maintained. No need to devote a whole lot of time/money/dev resources to these projects and re-invent the wheel when it's already there for you to use. As well no fear of losing support for any of these Desktop Environments as happened with Ubuntu.
• No need to add PPAs for every little package under the sun. Chances are it's the debian repository already.

Ubuntu once served a purpose, that purpose was to cater to the general population. To make a distro that worked out of the box, and was intuitive enough that even grandma could use it. Ubuntu has clearly abandoned the community and the user-friendly approach with the recent Unity debacle. Users are leaving Ubuntu in droves for Linux Mint already. Ubuntu is only kept relevant BECAUSE Linux Mint is based upon it. Take away Mint's dependence on Ubuntu, and the only users of Ubuntu left will be the few in the minority who believe Unity is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[bimsebasse]

While there is a small central control center app, the GUI for it looks ugly and unpolished, much in the same way XFCE's configuration GUIs look. I'm sure with some small tweaks this can be fixed.

Don't be so sure - all the Mint programs are "ugly and unpolished", Backup Tool, Software Manager, Upload Manager etc, and I doubt their beautification is on a to-do list (Elementary OS is your friend if attention to aesthetics is very important to you.)

Secondly Cinnamon is already more flexible and configurable than gnome-panel, it's just that at the moment - until users start writing little helper programs - much of the configuring has to be done largely without GUI manually editing css or javascript files, which of course to most users translates into not configurable.

And Ubuntu is alive and well.

[TheGreatSudoku]

(Elementary OS is your friend if attention to aesthetics is very important to you.)

Clearly it is, as that was one of my pet peeves with XFCE, the aesthetics were poor.

Secondly Cinnamon is already more flexible and configurable than gnome-panel, it's just that at the moment - until users start writing little helper programs - much of the configuring has to be done largely without GUI manually editing css or javascript files, which of course to most users translates into not configurable.

Exactly. Cinnamon is not more flexible nor more configurable if it involves editing a text file. It may have the POTENTIAL to be more configurable/flexible, though until that power is put in the hands of the end-user it's unfriendly and tedious.

And Ubuntu is alive and well.

And Mint overtook Ubuntu for the #1 spot on Distrowatch how? My point was that Ubuntu is on the decline, and that should Linux Mint abandon Ubuntu in favor of Debian, Ubuntu itself would become obsolete and die. Ubuntu needs Mint a lot more than mint needs Ubuntu imho.

[claudecat]

Wow, that was quite an eloquent and informed post, TGS. I agree with much of what you say, but I do doubt that Ubuntu is gonna disappear anytime soon. Many people actually LIKE Unity (hard to believe, I know). Even I like it better than default gnome-shell, which still ain't much. Ubuntu has too many years of building mind-share and has become the only distro most non-geeks might have heard of. Look at how active their forums are for proof that these Ubuntu folk are plentiful (and often rabid). Just because Mint has overtaken it on Distrowatch, don't assume that the death knell is nigh. No matter how many dumb moves Mr Shuttlesworth makes, the installed base is huge and won't erode as quickly as you (and I for that matter) hope.

That said, I agree totally regarding KDE, and it just keeps getting better. Aside from issues with kmail, 4.7 and 4.8 are big improvements on 4.6.5, which was, as you say, pretty darned good. Also agree that Mint should forgo Ubuntu and just polish up LMDE into its main edition. I'd even encourage them to think of becoming a KDE distro, but Cinnamon does seem to have a future. I'd rather have a rock-stable KDE distro than one based on a DE that's still in its very early stages (as it appears Mint 13 with cinnamon will be). Debian wheezy does a fabulous job with KDE (4.6.5, even sid is 4.6.5), and mintifying it could make LMDE with KDE a truly use friendly experience, not to mention the rolling release aspect.

Just one cat's opinion...

[marcus0263]

yes cinnamon is in it's early alpha stage, I have high hopes for it. I'm still on LMDE with Gnome 2, use it on my Workstation at work so I must have not only stability and flexibility but customization. That is multiple desktops and monitors, not to mention good transparency (must with terminal over docs/web pages.

The current Gnome 3/Unity tablet interface is IMO crap and useless. Love my Xoom tablet but the interface doesn't belong on the desktop, the Devs need to get a clue!

Thanks Clem for bringing sanity back!

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

[TheGreatSudoku]

No matter how many dumb moves Mr Shuttlesworth makes, the installed base is huge and won't erode as quickly as you (and I for that matter) hope.

Ooh and let's not forget the vaunted SERVER edition. For the admin who is lazy, uninformed, and not security conscious in the least.. Ubuntu Server LTS!!!

That said, I agree totally regarding KDE, and it just keeps getting better. Aside from issues with kmail, 4.7 and 4.8 are big improvements on 4.6.5, which was, as you say, pretty darned good. Also agree that Mint should forgo Ubuntu and just polish up LMDE into its main edition. I'd even encourage them to think of becoming a KDE distro, but Cinnamon does seem to have a future. I'd rather have a rock-stable KDE distro than one based on a DE that's still in its very early stages (as it appears Mint 13 with cinnamon will be). Debian wheezy does a fabulous job with KDE (4.6.5, even sid is 4.6.5), and mintifying it could make LMDE with KDE a truly use friendly experience, not to mention the rolling release aspect.

That's a VERY interesting notion of going with KDE (by default) until Cinnamon is polished and ready-for-primetime. I doubt it will happen as Cinnamon is Mint's crowning jewel at the moment, even it's early stage. I think word of mouth alone that it brings back a "Gnome 2-like Environment" makes people eager to use it, regardless of how "ready" it is. The fact that Fedora and OpenSuse have Cinnamon packages available is proof enough of that concept. But I agree going with an LMDE-KDE flagship product would be "putting your best foot forward" at the current time.

In any event, even if your favorite flavor of Desktop isn't included by default in LMDE, a few clicks in Synaptic and it's installed. Log into it, open synaptic again and remove the DE you don't want. I'm betting wheezy has rock-solid stability, as I've been running an LMDE sid laptop here continuously since November of 2010 Glad you enjoyed my post

[TheGreatSudoku]

The current Gnome 3/Unity tablet interface is IMO crap and useless. Love my Xoom tablet but the interface doesn't belong on the desktop, the Devs need to get a clue!

Thanks Clem for bringing sanity back!

Indeed, it seems Clem is the only sane dev out there who gets what a desktop/laptop DE should be in terms of look and functionality. I too am baffled why most devs think a trend toward a tablet interface is a good idea. Especially in the face of such harsh criticism from the users who get these crap DEs shoved down their throats in the first place.

[MALsPa]

Ubuntu is only kept relevant BECAUSE Linux Mint is based upon it. Take away Mint's dependence on Ubuntu, and the only users of Ubuntu left will be the few in the minority who believe Unity is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

That's total baloney.

Let's see Mint completely switch from their Ubuntu base to a Debian base first, then we'll see. I haven't heard of any plans by Clem to do that; have you?

[bimsebasse]

Yeah, every time you have talked sense into one booh-unity-gnome-3-tablet-interfaces-ubuntu-sucks ranter, 400 new ones pop up spouting the EXACT same mix of half-truths and misunderstandings and generalisations down to the last syllable. It's a bit unsettling. These guys are like house dust mites, you can't tell them apart and you can't do anything about them, they're too many , deal with it

[MALsPa]

These guys are like house dust mites, you can't tell them apart and you can't do anything about them, they're too many , deal with it

Yeah, you're right, good advice.

[marcus0263]

Yeah, every time you have talked sense into one booh-unity-gnome-3-tablet-interfaces-ubuntu-sucks ranter, 400 new ones pop up spouting the EXACT same mix of half-truths and misunderstandings and generalisations down to the last syllable. It's a bit unsettling. These guys are like house dust mites, you can't tell them apart and you can't do anything about them, they're too many , deal with it

Yes deal with it we are, thus Cinnamon!

Once again thanx to Clem for bringing sanity BACK!

Sent from my ATRIX Phone

[marcus0263]

No matter how many dumb moves Mr Shuttlesworth makes, the installed base is huge and won't erode as quickly as you (and I for that matter) hope.

Ooh and let's not forget the vaunted SERVER edition. For the admin who is lazy, uninformed, and not security conscious in the least.. Ubuntu Server LTS!!!

That said, I agree totally regarding KDE, and it just keeps getting better. Aside from issues with kmail, 4.7 and 4.8 are big improvements on 4.6.5, which was, as you say, pretty darned good. Also agree that Mint should forgo Ubuntu and just polish up LMDE into its main edition. I'd even encourage them to think of becoming a KDE distro, but Cinnamon does seem to have a future. I'd rather have a rock-stable KDE distro than one based on a DE that's still in its very early stages (as it appears Mint 13 with cinnamon will be). Debian wheezy does a fabulous job with KDE (4.6.5, even sid is 4.6.5), and mintifying it could make LMDE with KDE a truly use friendly experience, not to mention the rolling release aspect.

That's a VERY interesting notion of going with KDE (by default) until Cinnamon is polished and ready-for-primetime. I doubt it will happen as Cinnamon is Mint's crowning jewel at the moment, even it's early stage. I think word of mouth alone that it brings back a "Gnome 2-like Environment" makes people eager to use it, regardless of how "ready" it is. The fact that Fedora and OpenSuse have Cinnamon packages available is proof enough of that concept. But I agree going with an LMDE-KDE flagship product would be "putting your best foot forward" at the current time.

In any event, even if your favorite flavor of Desktop isn't included by default in LMDE, a few clicks in Synaptic and it's installed. Log into it, open synaptic again and remove the DE you don't want. I'm betting wheezy has rock-solid stability, as I've been running an LMDE sid laptop here continuously since November of 2010 Glad you enjoyed my post

Server, I use Debian

Sent from my ATRIX Phone

[marcus0263]

Ubuntu is only kept relevant BECAUSE Linux Mint is based upon it. Take away Mint's dependence on Ubuntu, and the only users of Ubuntu left will be the few in the minority who believe Unity is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

That's total baloney.

Let's see Mint completely switch from their Ubuntu base to a Debian base first, then we'll see. I haven't heard of any plans by Clem to do that; have you?

Give it time and it will.
Mint has gained a lot of ground and popularity, it's only a matter of time when it leaves the bloated crap that is Ubuntu and rebases to Debian.

That my friend is Evolution and Natural Selection at work

[craig10x]

much as i like mint...have to bring him down to reality: mint has about 1/2 million users worldwide and ubuntu close to 20 million from what i have read....
ubuntu will ALWAYS be the largest and most prominent linux distro...

also, though i do very much like Cinnamon desktop...i recently installed ubuntu 11.10 again to see if i could get on with unity...originally i wasn't sure if i would
care for it, especially after reading negative comments...after about a week i found that like it a lot...

but i kept an open mind...didn't let negative comments color my view of it and was willing to adjust to something that was different then what i was accustomed to for years...some people just can't/don't want to do that...if it is not what they are use to, they just automatically don't care for it...

and regarding lmde and debian...rolling is NOT for everyone...it requires lots of maintenance and willingness to make fixes when things regress or break...
and debian for a base? well, other then rolling, debian stable tends to get old because of the long period between new versions (2 yrs i believe)...debian doesn't
even render well, the only reason Mint LMDE looks good is because Clem puts in the ubuntu patches for it...

Also, unfortunately...mint is not the most "spiffy looking" distro... appearance-wise...it's looks have never been that high on the to do list (as previous pointed out)...
the latest Ubuntu's look extremely polished in appearance and could easily compete with windows and mac on that level....it LOOKS like a commercially done computer operating system...

Oh, and finally, from various comments i have read from Clem he has absolutely no plans to move mint main edition from ubuntu base to a debian base...
And a rather interesting quote from a review of ubuntu 11.10:

there’s no escaping the fact that Ubuntu is the most highly developed and refined open source operating system in the world today

[esteban1uy]

I'm maybe missing the point, but isn't it a big mistake to talk about the "life" and/or "death" of a distro based (mostly) on its DE?
If that's the case, then most of the major distributions should have disappeared at some point, because each of them has gone through a phase of "desktop ugliness".
Think about Debian. It has the (well deserved) reputation of being one of the best distributions around: rock solid, permanently maintained, applications available for whatever task you can imagine... but some (if not all) of its own desktop "metapackages" are almost a disaster! (just give Debian LXDE a try).
I really don't believe the fate of a distribution is so deeply tied to its DE, but I'm fully convinced that the nature of its user base, the availability of quick solutions to problems through forums, wikis, etc, and the general support of a community make a big difference.
That's clearly the case of Mint. It really doesn't matter wich base distro is used to create it (Ubuntu, Debian, Hannah-Montana-Linux...) nor the base DE (Gnome2, Gnome-shell+MGSE, KDE...) there's an interesting community always well prepared to find ways to help those who are in charge to make things better.
And if I'm not deeply mistaken, that's also the case of Cinnamon: it started after some people in this very forum showed how far you can go tweaking Gnome-shell and what unavoidable limitations would imply keeping it "as is", and now Cinnamon is the prom queen...

I talk about Mint because that's what I know the best but isn't it the same at the Ubuntu side?

If I'm wrong please forgive my ignorance.

[Lumikki]

So much about everything is based every individuals personal taste, opinions and needs.

I consider it to be better when there is more different kind of desktops to choose from. I do understand that people can become angry when something what they have used long time, get changed way they don't like. But in end, changes will always happen when time moves forward. So, only thing what we can really do is say our options and try to find what we do like. And because there is so many different kind of people in the world, we all don't like same things. So to judge someone else choices or taste, isn't really that good, lets allow everyone choose what ever they like.

I have my own reasons to choose Mint 12 Cinnamon.

[swiftlinuxcreator]

I'm maybe missing the point, but isn't it a big mistake to talk about the "life" and/or "death" of a distro based (mostly) on its DE?
If that's the case, then most of the major distributions should have disappeared at some point, because each of them has gone through a phase of "desktop ugliness".
Think about Debian. It has the (well deserved) reputation of being one of the best distributions around: rock solid, permanently maintained, applications available for whatever task you can imagine... but some (if not all) of its own desktop "metapackages" are almost a disaster! (just give Debian LXDE a try).

I think the dependence of a distro on its DE varies. Debian's main value to most people isn't in the setup of its user interface but in its inner workings. Debian is an independent distro and has over 30 thousand software packages in its repository, offers driver support, etc. Of the hundreds of distros out there, all but a few are derived from something else. It has taken Debian 18 years and hundreds or thousands of developers to become what it is today. Debian only has a few direct competitors (Arch, Slackware, RedHat, Gentoo, etc.) but numerous derivatives.

But most distros have a mission far different from that of Debian. A distro that is a derivative of something else is much more dependent on its DE. The job of a derivative distro is to customize the upstream distro for a certain type of user and use it as a base.

[esteban1uy]

A distro that is a derivative of something else is much more dependent on its DE. The job of a derivative distro is to customize the upstream distro for a certain type of user and use it as a base.

Interesting.

And at the same time that points to some key questions: is it fair to consider Ubuntu a simple derivative of Debian?, at what point a derivative distribution starts to be considered something else?, are there any criteria for it?

In my opinion, that's where the community issue comes into play.

[w2ibc]

. but some (if not all) of its own desktop "metapackages" are almost a disaster! (just give Debian LXDE a try).

I have found debian lxde to be quite nice imo.

only thing I added to it was network manager gnome.

I did remove iceweasel and add the mint repo and installed FF9

also added mint forutunes (for my own amusement some of them make me laugh) I have the minty colored terminal as well (I like it)

but over all. debian lxde is pretty good,

[esteban1uy]

My intention was not to criticize but to use Debian LXDE as an example of that not always the DE is what decides the fate of a distribution.
If you like it the way it comes, that's good, but something you can often find in any Debian review (and I mean serious review) is that out-of-the-box Debian is not the best Debian: 1, 2.
I love Debian myself, I made an "hybrid" Lubuntu-Debian for my sister's laptop (the whole disctintive package set from Lubuntu translated to pure Debian Wheezy packages) and she is completely delighted with it: it doubles the speed of Lubuntu and still uses few resources. But it took me a LOT of work!!!