Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GIMP

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Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GIMP

Postby anandrkris on Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:52 am

http://funding.openinitiative.com/funding/1578/ >> Kind-hearted souls - please contribute :D May I also request you to reply here if you have donated.
Image

Proposition
implementing a mirror/symmetry painting feature into GIMP.
Description
GIMP is one of the main multi-usage, multi-platform (Windows, OSX, Linux, BSD…) image processing tool. On the painting side though, it lacks some common features. One of them is the ability to draw in symmetry mode in real time.
In order to have a drawing with perfect symmetry, currently the painter needs to either draw very simple forms, use some filter/plugin, or duplicate/flip layers. These are by far less practical and intuitive than seeing one’s symmetrical drawing coming to life in real time as you draw.
Usage
I have met some artist who uses vertical mirrors in other software for instance to quickly sketch characters at first stages of design when time is worth more than arts. I could also easily imagine it would greatly simplify creation of symmetrical designs (logos, etc.) using complicated forms and drawing.
And probably many more example. For instance the original drawing in the below video. The painter Aryeom Han used my first (unstable and far from perfect) implementation test to draw a lake reflection, later modified with scaling, gradient and the warp tool to give it a watery feel.
Schedule
The crowdfunding starts on Monday, 16th of September. I hope it to be finished in about a month. Once I will finally start on the feature, I am planning for the implementation to be finished in a few weeks (the feature will need to be reviewed by peers to hit the branch, which may take more time, but I will attend to it being released eventually).
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby samriggs on Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:36 am

Hey anandrkris
I just checked this one out a week or so ago, looks promising and I'm sure for a lot of artist it can be very useful.
For me I still prefer to do it myself using duplicate layer and flip it vertically then add any other changes (scale,wave, blurs etc)
but it is a great idea for a lot of other folks and I would recommend it for others to use, especially those using gimpers for signs or other business situations, it's a quick fix to an otherwise time consuming ordeal. For those unsure, check out the video on the site, it is a nice plug in and one thing that was missing.
Good for a whole whack of stuff like landscapes, signs, wraps, etc, etc, especially good for faster art creation times for businesses where it's needed to give good deals to clients.
Thars a boost for it for ya :lol:
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby dee. on Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:08 am

Doesn't interest me all that much, tbh. IMO, GIMP should focus on what it does best - being a well-rounded, all-purpose general image manipulation software, not try to become a great drawing/painting software.

For drawing, I use Krita, which is much better for it anyway - optimized for tablets and has many features GIMP lacks - including mirror painting, symmetry, mirror view, view rotation, mixbrushes and much more.
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby samriggs on Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:33 pm

Looks interesting, I never knew this one was out there
some features that look really good is:
32 bits floating point for color management
raster graphics and vector tools
the painting tools looks nice also.
Can you use a pen tool with it like wacom? and does the pressure work?
I'll give to give it a spin and see how it compares to gimpers, maybe this old dog will learn a new trick or two.
Thanks Dee I'll give it a try.
Although I still think gimp can be an all around art program (hopefully an all in one art program) in the end, instead of using a bunch of programs that each do one thing good.
Like that will happen but it's nice to dream, I always had an issue with having too many programs open that each are good in one area and jumping in between them just to get one piece of work finished. Like using vectors and rgb pixels in the same piece, usually i do the vectors in inkscape then jump into gimp to add the rest or visa versa but having it all in one program would be better with a good ole image manipulator as well and the freedom for having thousands of brushed, filters/plugins, patterns etc, etc
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby anandrkris on Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:01 am

Hmm. I have read some awesome reviews by artists and some cool toons created by using Krita. But GIMP also needs some love. Funding for this feature and making it success will inspire other developers to come up with initiaties to add new features. So feel generous. :D
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby dee. on Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:57 am

samriggs wrote:Looks interesting, I never knew this one was out there
some features that look really good is:
32 bits floating point for color management
raster graphics and vector tools
the painting tools looks nice also.


The painting tools are the best part about it. It uses a bit of a different paradigm for painting tools than GIMP: the actual painting tools are just things like freehand brush, line, symmetry tool etc. and each of those tools can be used with various brush engines such as regular brushes (that can use GIMP brush files), smudges, texture brushes, clone stamps, sketch brushes (extremely fun to doodle with!), filter brushes (apply any filter with a brush), etc...

I usually don't even bother with the high bit-depth modes, usually 8 bits is enough for what I do. It's still good to have the option, although GIMP is getting it too in the next release (or already in the dev branch if you're adventurous). One good thing is that you can draw in CMYK mode in Krita, which is great if you need to do print work. Clone layers and dynamic effect layers (similar to Photoshop adjustment layers/layer styles, except you can use any effect for them, some might be a tad slow though).

When you try Krita, you'll see how much there is a software can do for drawing/painting, which you didn't even know you missed when you used GIMP. Not to badmouth GIMP though, I still use it for other, non-drawing tasks, like image editing, photo editing, pixel art, etc. that are simply more convenient to do in it than in Krita.

Can you use a pen tool with it like wacom? and does the pressure work?


Yes. Krita is entirely optimized for graphics tablets, right down to the interface (which is very configurable though, it has modular dialogs that can be attached and deattached to the side, just like GIMP). I myself use Intuos4 on it and it works great.

I'll give to give it a spin and see how it compares to gimpers, maybe this old dog will learn a new trick or two.
Thanks Dee I'll give it a try.


No problem, it's best to install it from the PPA kubuntu-backports, they always carry the latest version and the one in the main Ubuntu repos is ancient...

Krita was actually part of the reason why I started using Linux, GIMP could be ran on Windows but there was no working Windows version of Krita at the time.

Although I still think gimp can be an all around art program (hopefully an all in one art program) in the end, instead of using a bunch of programs that each do one thing good.
Like that will happen but it's nice to dream, I always had an issue with having too many programs open that each are good in one area and jumping in between them just to get one piece of work finished. Like using vectors and rgb pixels in the same piece, usually i do the vectors in inkscape then jump into gimp to add the rest or visa versa but having it all in one program would be better with a good ole image manipulator as well and the freedom for having thousands of brushed, filters/plugins, patterns etc, etc
Sam


Hm. I don't think there's ever going to be one software that does everything great. It might do everything OK, or it might only focus on one thing and do that perfectly. It all depends on your use case which is the better option.

I've often wondered, if it'd be possible to write a sort of "image composition" software. It would only have minimal editing tools, and it would work so that you could directly import the native image files from GIMP, Inkscape and Krita and layer them together. Then you could do the editing of the layers in their respective softwares, and compose the layer stack finally in the composition software. Of course, the hard part would be reading the image formats of each program and keeping up with them...
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby samriggs on Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:20 am

I've often wondered, if it'd be possible to write a sort of "image composition" software. It would only have minimal editing tools, and it would work so that you could directly import the native image files from GIMP, Inkscape and Krita and layer them together. Then you could do the editing of the layers in their respective softwares, and compose the layer stack finally in the composition software. Of course, the hard part would be reading the image formats of each program and keeping up with them...

Nice idea but it would have to be full blown editing software to make it worth while and reading different formats probably would be one huge headache to code it.
a program that allows svg vectors like inkscape and pixels like gimp meld together would be excellent though, gimp was suppose to get svg support but turned it down for now as there other add ons where more of a priority, can't remember where I read it but I was all excited when I first heard they were thinking about it.
I use lmde not kde so no ppa for me since it's debian based not ubuntu based.
I did manage to install it though, even though I don't use kde (no min/max buttons because of it) but that's ok I got it on full screen and just open it up in a separate workspace so it doesn't interfere with anything else.

So far so good, it's a nice painting toy, I like the brushes and it's options for them, I'll be using this probably for some graphic novel ideas I have in store for the very near future, although I'll be making my own pages, there comic template is too basic for my liking.
It lacks a lot of features but is good for one thing "Painting" which is a bonus.
Plus if it ever gets published the CMYK option will be nice for the publishers, no converting needed.
Having pen support is another added bonus :D
I might use it for some android stuff as well, game backgrounds etc.
The only thing I didn't see which kind of ticked me off was no guides or snap to guides, they only have grids instead and I use both for my android stuff, I can get away with grids but guides are nice as well, hopefully they will add that feature or maybe a latest version already has it, I'll have to check it out.

Ya gimp is getting the high bit-depth modes in version 10 which is nice for blurring details and just more detail period, I like smoother corners not choppy so I'm looking forward to it coming in float points as well, makes nicer, cleaner artwork for highly detailed stuff, especially when I used to do car wraps and you increase the size for printing, those little details show up big time on big artwork and can look like crap once blown up even at 300 to 600 dpi if the edges were choppy.
Cases like that the high bit-depth is a life safer and can make or break a client's happiness.
Gimp is also getting the rotating canvas as well in version 10 but I really can't see any use for that one right now, I'm sure some can use it though.
I like some of there other features as well, like the wrap around tool.

Another fun toy to play with
Thanks again Dee
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby dee. on Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:12 pm

samriggs wrote:Nice idea but it would have to be full blown editing software to make it worth while


Nah, it'd only need very basic functionality like resize and layer modes and such. Anything beyond that could be done in the actual image editors. Think of it like a graphics software where each layer is a file that is somewhere on your filesystem, and when you edit the file the changes are updated realtime to the software. So you could have "svg layers" or "xcf layers", you click on one and select "edit in gimp" or "edit in inkscape" or "edit in ____" and then it opens the image in the corresponding software, when you save there you can go back to the composition software and you'll see the changes you made there.

samriggs wrote:reading different formats probably would be one huge headache to code it.


It would only need to read them as far as being able to render them accurately. For svg's, there's already libsvg which could be used for that. .ora files (used by eg. Mypaint) are basically just .png's stacked into a file with metadata for layer modes and such. That just leaves .xcf and Krita's .kra, of these .xcf would probably be relatively easy to implement, .kra might be more difficult because of effect layers and such.

samriggs wrote:(no min/max buttons because of it)


It's probably opening in fullscreen mode, I think it's something like a bug with KDE software not running properly on Cinnamon/GNOME/etc. try pressing ctrl-shift-f twice, see if that helps.

samriggs wrote:The only thing I didn't see which kind of ticked me off was no guides or snap to guides


There are guides, they're just a bit different than what you're used to in GIMP. You can create them with the painting assistant tool (the one that looks like a ruler), you can do, curves, straight lines, ellipses or perspective grids with it. Then just use a painting tool and check the box "assistant" in the tool options, the slider next to it adjusts how closely the painting tool follows the guidelines (which is really nice, allows to do clean & accurate lines that still look hand-drawn).

samriggs wrote:Gimp is also getting the rotating canvas as well in version 10 but I really can't see any use for that one right now, I'm sure some can use it though.


It's usefulness depends on your drawing style and what kind of tablet you use. For me, when I draw on paper, I turn the paper around lots so that I don't have to draw at an awkward angle, it's easier to get the lines right that way. The rotation function basically serves the same purpose.
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby samriggs on Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:57 am

Nah, it'd only need very basic functionality like resize and layer modes and such. Anything beyond that could be done in the actual image editors. Think of it like a graphics software where each layer is a file that is somewhere on your filesystem, and when you edit the file the changes are updated realtime to the software. So you could have "svg layers" or "xcf layers", you click on one and select "edit in gimp" or "edit in inkscape" or "edit in ____" and then it opens the image in the corresponding software, when you save there you can go back to the composition software and you'll see the changes you made there.

It would only need to read them as far as being able to render them accurately. For svg's, there's already libsvg which could be used for that. .ora files (used by eg. Mypaint) are basically just .png's stacked into a file with metadata for layer modes and such. That just leaves .xcf and Krita's .kra, of these .xcf would probably be relatively easy to implement, .kra might be more difficult because of effect layers and such.


So sort just a program to stack them in layers only, but no real editing except in it's original program, it could be useful but lets say you want vector outlines select the inside of lines and use pixels instead then have Krita's paint abilities to be inside the selection then over top also, sort of a mix and match all over the place (something I would do constantly), then it would get confusing bringing in so many layers when I could do it all in one program instead and edit it in that program, the ability to do it all in one with no added programs having to open up and see the changes real time then the ability to either trace bitmap for pixels to become vectors or change vectors to pixels (they both can be done now in gimp and inkscape but not in the same program for both, hope this makes sense because I do it now but the long way around which is a headache.
That's why I was hoping gimpers got svg support to create vectors it would of accomplished this and there would be no need for inkscape anymore.
Your idea is good for basic art (great for a lot of business stuff also) but highly detailed with mixtures all over the map I don't know how that would play out.

In my flash programming days years ago I used to do this by having illustrator, photoshop, fireworks and flash open all at the same time and jumped from one program to another to get the effects I was looking for to use for flash, it was a headache jumping around and usually crashed windoze on me lol.
It got to the point that I just used illustrator for most of it to keep it strictly vectors instead and added photoshop for the pixels which really didn't go over to well in flash back then, it preferred vectors.

It's probably opening in fullscreen mode, I think it's something like a bug with KDE software not running properly on Cinnamon/GNOME/etc. try pressing ctrl-shift-f twice, see if that helps.


This worked like a charm, thanks :D

It's usefulness depends on your drawing style and what kind of tablet you use. For me, when I draw on paper, I turn the paper around lots so that I don't have to draw at an awkward angle, it's easier to get the lines right that way. The rotation function basically serves the same purpose.


Yup I always draw and paint in one direction and never move the paper or canvas around, something I just got used, but I know a lot of artist move the media around so it's a great feature for those who do it that way.

There are guides, they're just a bit different than what you're used to in GIMP. You can create them with the painting assistant tool (the one that looks like a ruler), you can do, curves, straight lines, ellipses or perspective grids with it. Then just use a painting tool and check the box "assistant" in the tool options, the slider next to it adjusts how closely the painting tool follows the guidelines (which is really nice, allows to do clean & accurate lines that still look hand-drawn).


Thanks again :D I'm liking it better now, I got to admit making guides this way can be very useful, especially for a graphic novel.

I'm without a pen tablet right now, but am probably going to get the bamboo create since the drivers aren't out yet for the new wacom tablets (intuos tablets) or I would get the CTH680.
I sold the last one I had when I took a break from art (wish I never did that now) but it would be outdated now anyhow.
I'm planning to pick it up in a month so I'll check to see if they got the drivers updated by then, if not then the bamboo create it is, not as updated but at least it'll work.
Just getting really tired of using my finger to draw with on a laptop, it just does not do the same accuracy at all and no pressure sensitive really irks me.
That's why the graphic novels are waiting for the tablet, the rest I can get away without using one for now.
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby dee. on Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:34 pm

samriggs wrote:So sort just a program to stack them in layers only, but no real editing except in it's original program, it could be useful but lets say you want vector outlines select the inside of lines and use pixels instead then have Krita's paint abilities to be inside the selection then


That's one problem with Krita, it has no way to import vectors from svg files. I'm not sure if it imports paths from .xcf files (Krita can open GIMP's xcf files, which is useful), I haven't tried it but that'd be one way, import the vectors to GIMP, save as .xcf and then open in Krita... worst case, you can import the vectors in GIMP, convert to bitmap mask and import that to Krita... it's complicated, but maybe it could be scripted in some way, GIMP can be scripted quite extensively... almost everything is scriptable in GIMP.

samriggs wrote:Your idea is good for basic art (great for a lot of business stuff also)


I think it'd be useful for print work mostly, but also some web stuff probably. Like design and such, where you might need logos, text, images etc. mixed up. Maybe not so useful for all sorts of artistic stuff, but again depends on your workflow.

samriggs wrote:I'm without a pen tablet right now, but am probably going to get the bamboo create since the drivers aren't out yet for the new wacom tablets (intuos tablets) or I would get the CTH680.
I sold the last one I had when I took a break from art (wish I never did that now) but it would be outdated now anyhow.


If you mean Intuos5 I think support should already be implemented in libwacom. Or have they released something new after Intuos5? I haven't been paying attention much on that direction...

Anyway, my recommendation is to get an Intuos4 if you still can find one, it has the oled screens and real buttons instead of Intuos5's touch buttons and HUD display (which probably isn't supported under Linux in any case). Bamboos aren't really that great for serious work, I used to have one but when I moved from it to Intuos it was a world of difference.
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby samriggs on Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:46 am

Not sure if it's called intuos 5 or not I know the model is CTH680 but I did check the sourgeforce site for the wacom drivers and they said the new intuos are going to be supported in version 20 19 doesn't support it yet, I might wait until it gets supported before buying it I don't want to be stuck with some outdated model plus the intuos looks better anyhow. I'll check to see if they got any nightly builds before I buy anything maybe I can get a driver before the stable version is released.
Sam
Edit: sorry I had the model number wrong for the one I was looking at, it was the pro version I was after, a little more money but worth it.
I'm either going to get the medium or large size one, you can check it out here at wacom: http://www.wacom.com/ca/en/creative/intuos-pro-m
They have other ones but this one fits into my budget for now.
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby dee. on Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:31 pm

Should already be supported, AFAIK.
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby samriggs on Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:04 pm

Yup your right I doubled checked it again.
Support for the new "Intuos Pen", "Intuos Pen & Touch", and
"Intuos Manga" models is expected to be available in the next
input-wacom release.

but the Intuos5 or Pro is supported.
the release of input-wacom 0.19.0. This
release adds support for the Cintiq Companion Hybrid, Intuos Pro .... and
add support for three new Intuos Pro devices Fix Intuos5 and Intuos Pro touch


The second part is saying that it is added for intuos Pro, so hopefully I'll have it in my greedy little hands soon, .
It is Intuos5 the one I want pro is 5 now from what wacom said on their site.
You can check out what the driver supports here: http://sourceforge.net/p/linuxwacom/mai ... /31485674/
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby samriggs on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:45 pm

Well I finally got the intuos Pro or intuos 5 medium tablet and it works like a charm, so it is supported.
Tried it in katria also and works fantastic, a lot better then my old one I used to have, I was going to get the large size one but thought it might be to big for the area I work on it at and I was right, the medium size fits perfect for me.
I am happy happy happy now, time to go nuts drawing.
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Re: Crowdfunding Proposal for Symmetry/Mirror Painting in GI

Postby dee. on Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:26 am

samriggs wrote:Well I finally got the intuos Pro or intuos 5 medium tablet and it works like a charm, so it is supported.
Tried it in katria also and works fantastic, a lot better then my old one I used to have, I was going to get the large size one but thought it might be to big for the area I work on it at and I was right, the medium size fits perfect for me.
I am happy happy happy now, time to go nuts drawing.
Sam


Yep, the medium size is already large enough for most workspaces, you pretty much almost need to have a specially designed workspace to be able to use the large version... not to even speak of the XL/CAD version... or the 24" Cintiq *drool*
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