fallback mode

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fallback mode

Postby MALsPa on Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:13 pm

A lot of times when people complain about GNOME 3, I think they are really complaining about GNOME Shell. (But Cinnamon is also GNOME 3, right?)

I was reading today's interview of Michael Meeks at My Linux Rig, and this part caught my eye:

This muscle memory [...] is one reason why I’ve not been able to move to the new GNOME 3 shell. So, you’ll notice I’m using the under-advertised fallback mode, which (if only more people knew about) might make the over-busy, power-user fringe a lot less annoyed with GNOME 3.

http://www.mylinuxrig.com/


So, instead of using GNOME Shell, why don't people just use fallback mode in GNOME 3? I've never even tried it, but that's because I like using GNOME Shell. Is fallback mode in GNOME 3 all that bad (that guy obviously doesn't think so)?
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Re: fallback mode

Postby cwwgateway on Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:15 pm

The fallback is an ok short term solution for people who dislike gnome shell (which gets blurred with gnome 3), but gnome fallback is basically a crippled gnome 2. Old gnome 2 applets won't work, and it won't be supported for very long - its whole point was to work for people whose graphics cards couldn't handle Gnome Shell, but now Gnome Shell works (at least on some distros, mint not being, at least by default, one of them) with software rendering, meaning all graphics cards can work with Gnome Shell. In fact, the next version of Cinnamon will come with software rendering (it was planned for Mint 13 but llvmpipe, which is the renderer, was very buggy until recently), meaning fallback mode will be removed from mint by default (with Mint 14). In addition, MATE does everything the fallback mode does and more (it is gnome 2).

However, SolusOS (which is a disto based on debian stable whose creator created LMDE) tweaked the fallback mode into a usable state, and they are planning to support it after Gnome stops supporting it. But even the creator of SolusOS has said "which in its current state features a largely unusable fallback mode." So MATE, Cinnamon, and SolusOS's yet unamed desktop are still better options than the fallback.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby oysterboy on Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:47 pm

A tweaked fallback mode is the default DE for Trisquel, a 100% free Ubuntu-based distribution. It looks beautiful to me, and works absolutely fine. I don't know what the plan is for the next Trisquel LTS release, due next September and based on Precise Pangolin. Of course, other DEs can also be installed, and I have used gnome-shell and Unity a short while. I prefer the fallback mode.

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Re: fallback mode

Postby cwwgateway on Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:39 am

oysterboy wrote:A tweaked fallback mode is the default DE for Trisquel, a 100% free Ubuntu-based distribution. It looks beautiful to me, and works absolutely fine. I don't know what the plan is for the next Trisquel LTS release, due next September and based on Precise Pangolin. Of course, other DEs can also be installed, and I have used gnome-shell and Unity a short while. I prefer the fallback mode.

I guess my question is what are the advantages of the fallback mode over MATE? I can name a number of advantages that MATE has over the fallback mode. And MATE can look exactly how Trisquel looks in that picture.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby grizzler on Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:27 am

cwwgateway wrote:The fallback is an ok short term solution for people who dislike gnome shell (which gets blurred with gnome 3), but gnome fallback is basically a crippled gnome 2. Old gnome 2 applets won't work,

Vincent Untz, the creator of (most of) the panel applets, ported them to Gnome3 around April last year. I've been using Fallback Mode for several months now and for me the difference with Gnome2 is minimal.

and it won't be supported for very long

Originally, Untz claimed with certainty that Fallback Mode would be available as long as Gnome3 itself, but development of the software rendering has made that less certain.

In addition, MATE does everything the fallback mode does and more (it is gnome 2).

In my experience, less, actually. My main reason for not switching to Mate is the absence of the Gedit plugins. Most of those have been ported to Gnome3 but are not available for Pluma, Mate's Gedit replacement.

However, SolusOS (which is a disto based on debian stable whose creator created LMDE) tweaked the fallback mode into a usable state, and they are planning to support it after Gnome stops supporting it.

SolusOS does indeed look promising. I'm hoping to be able to switch to that once Fallback Mode is dropped. The Gnome3 based SolusOS 2 is still in alpha, though (SolusOS 1 is based on Gnome2). I've tried the live USB and it looked nice, but shutting down was awkward and the installer needs work.

But even the creator of SolusOS has said "which in its current state features a largely unusable fallback mode." So MATE, Cinnamon, and SolusOS's yet unamed desktop are still better options than the fallback.

SolusOS, yes. Cinnamon is entirely unuseable on this four year old machine and Mate needs more work.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby oysterboy on Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:07 am

cwwgateway wrote:
oysterboy wrote:A tweaked fallback mode is the default DE for Trisquel, a 100% free Ubuntu-based distribution. It looks beautiful to me, and works absolutely fine. I don't know what the plan is for the next Trisquel LTS release, due next September and based on Precise Pangolin. Of course, other DEs can also be installed, and I have used gnome-shell and Unity a short while. I prefer the fallback mode.

I guess my question is what are the advantages of the fallback mode over MATE? I can name a number of advantages that MATE has over the fallback mode. And MATE can look exactly how Trisquel looks in that picture.


MATE is a fine desktop (I use it, not Cinnamon, when I use Linux Mint 13), but seems like a dead end to me, being based on Gnome2 which has been deprecated by Gnome3. The fallback mode uses the latest Gnome3 technologies on the other hand.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby cwwgateway on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:25 pm

grizzler wrote:Vincent Untz, the creator of (most of) the panel applets, ported them to Gnome3 around April last year. I've been using Fallback Mode for several months now and for me the difference with Gnome2 is minimal.
Yes, but what about panel applets that weren't default in gnome 2? Examples are mintMenu, the global menu applet, gnomenu, etc
Originally, Untz claimed with certainty that Fallback Mode would be available as long as Gnome3 itself, but development of the software rendering has made that less certain.
Gnome has since said that they will discontinue the fallback mode because its point was to be a fallback for people who don't have the graphics capability (as I said earlier).
In addition, MATE does everything the fallback mode does and more (it is gnome 2).

In my experience, less, actually. My main reason for not switching to Mate is the absence of the Gedit plugins. Most of those have been ported to Gnome3 but are not available for Pluma, Mate's Gedit replacement.
Why can't you install gedit on the MATE edition (maybe gnome dependencies?)?
SolusOS does indeed look promising. I'm hoping to be able to switch to that once Fallback Mode is dropped. The Gnome3 based SolusOS 2 is still in alpha, though (SolusOS 1 is based on Gnome2). I've tried the live USB and it looked nice, but shutting down was awkward and the installer needs work.
The installer is going to be redone in the betas, and it is pretty stable. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it turns out (although we'll have to wait until Wheezy becomes stable, which will happen some time in February I think).
SolusOS, yes. Cinnamon is entirely unuseable on this four year old machine and Mate needs more work.
Wait until the next version of Cinnamon which uses llvmpipe (its actually really neat). But, I actually agree with you about MATE (I don't like it nor use it). I am happy that you like the fallback mode (and SolusOS).

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Re: fallback mode

Postby zerozero on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:44 pm

oysterboy wrote:MATE is a fine desktop (I use it, not Cinnamon, when I use Linux Mint 13), but seems like a dead end to me, being based on Gnome2 which has been deprecated by Gnome3. The fallback mode uses the latest Gnome3 technologies on the other hand.

actually i think it's the other way around: as was already said here fallback is eol'ed, mate as a fork of gnome2.x can carry that development as long as the community and the dev. team wishes.

grizzler wrote:In my experience, less, actually. My main reason for not switching to Mate is the absence of the Gedit plugins. Most of those have been ported to Gnome3 but are not available for Pluma, Mate's Gedit replacement.

mate is W.I.P (we are now in the 2nd release) there were (still are) issues with gnome-compatibility (these gedit plugins, some nautilus extensions, the all mighty compiz)
the good news is that from 1.0 to 1.2 we saw great improvements, we can only wait the same from 1.4(?)
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Re: fallback mode

Postby grizzler on Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:40 am

cwwgateway wrote:
grizzler wrote:Vincent Untz, the creator of (most of) the panel applets, ported them to Gnome3 around April last year. I've been using Fallback Mode for several months now and for me the difference with Gnome2 is minimal.

Yes, but what about panel applets that weren't default in gnome 2? Examples are mintMenu, the global menu applet, gnomenu, etc

Well, I did say 'for me'. I've never used any of those three, nor any other that is said to be missing from Gnome3's panel.

About those three: I don't use mintMenu because it has never been able to cope with the custom submenus I created (using Gnome2). Gnome3 panel's main menu does cope.
According to their website, the global menu is moving to Gnome3 anyway (assuming gnome2-globalmenu is what you meant).
And gnomenu appears to be unmaintained/no longer in development (at least that's what the site indicates).

In addition, MATE does everything the fallback mode does and more (it is gnome 2).

In my experience, less, actually. My main reason for not switching to Mate is the absence of the Gedit plugins. Most of those have been ported to Gnome3 but are not available for Pluma, Mate's Gedit replacement.

Why can't you install gedit on the MATE edition (maybe gnome dependencies?)?

I guess that is a possibility. I would have preferred to stick with one desktop environment with all its tools, but as long as the Gtk3 stuff is installed anyway...

SolusOS does indeed look promising. I'm hoping to be able to switch to that once Fallback Mode is dropped. The Gnome3 based SolusOS 2 is still in alpha, though (SolusOS 1 is based on Gnome2). I've tried the live USB and it looked nice, but shutting down was awkward and the installer needs work.

The installer is going to be redone in the betas, and it is pretty stable. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it turns out (although we'll have to wait until Wheezy becomes stable, which will happen some time in February I think).

Hopefully the installer will lose the bit that doesn't allow you to continue if you choose not to format any partitions. This machine has eleven partitions containing seven distributions, each with fstabs that reference all partitions using UUIDs. Formatting a partition changes its UUID (yes, I know how to restore an old UUID, but I'm just not prepared to jump through any kind of hoops because some piece of software wants me to...).
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Re: fallback mode

Postby linuxviolin on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:09 am

grizzler wrote:Originally, Untz claimed with certainty that Fallback Mode would be available as long as Gnome3 itself, but development of the software rendering has made that less certain.

Hum, not true, I guess. I had read a post by a GNOME dev some time ago where he said probably the fallback mode would not be supported ad vitam eternam...

I agree with cwwgateway, the fallback mode is not the same as GNOME 2, even if it may have made some progress. MATE is not too bad but it's stayed sticked with old technology, no more supported by GNOME devs. Cinnamon is the desktop to go if you want staying with GNOME and have a modern desktop with modern technology.

For me, I liked GNOME 2 very much, with its default two panels configuration. It was the best desktop at this time. Now I hate GNOME 3, I want it no more. But KDE 4 is usable and modern... With the desktop view. But I have already explained this many times in this forum, so I stop here! :lol: :mrgreen:
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Re: fallback mode

Postby grizzler on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:28 am

linuxviolin wrote:
grizzler wrote:Originally, Untz claimed with certainty that Fallback Mode would be available as long as Gnome3 itself, but development of the software rendering has made that less certain.

Hum, not true, I guess. I had read a post by a GNOME dev some time ago where he said probably the fallback mode would not be supported ad vitam eternam...

Please read this blog posting by Vincent Untz (also a Gnome dev) (comments 44, 50 and 58 in particular) before you claim something isn't true.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby linuxviolin on Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:14 am

grizzler wrote:Please read this blog posting by Vincent Untz (also a Gnome dev) (comments 44, 50 and 58 in particular) before you claim something isn't true.

Well, I have not said you're wrong but just I had read a post by a GNOME dev some time ago where he said probably the fallback mode would not be supported ad vitam eternam... Period.

It's a pity I have not kept the link. :oops: :? And they may have changed their original view. :wink:
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Re: fallback mode

Postby grizzler on Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:41 pm

linuxviolin wrote:... they may have changed their original view. :wink:

They have. That's why I wrote "...but development of the software rendering has made that less certain."

That was actually based on the final postings on Untz's blog.

Your reaction seemed to indicate you didn't believe they ever intended to keep Fallback Mode for any length of time. I originally thought so too, until I came across that blog.
It's a pity really. For me Fallback Mode is close enough to Gnome2 not to have to switch to something different for my main distro straight away.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby Wolfen69 on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:17 pm

First off, gnome 3 can be made to act very similar to g2 with extensions.

Secondly, am I the only person in the world who doesn't give a rat's @ss about what DE they use? I take pride in being able to adapt to anything thrown my way. I purposely install a new DE (actually I reinstall a different version of ubuntu) every few months just for kicks. I just don't get why people get upset over it. I can be productive using anything, be it lxde, xfce, gnome 3, or whatever. Computers are just tools to get things done. All DE's are good once you get used to them. If it takes you more than an hour or 2 to get used to anything, well, I won't go there.

Btw, my next install will probably be mint, since it's been a while since I've used it. I just keep the same home folder and reinstall root. Makes it easy to try new things. But you'll never hear me complain about any de, I just complain about complainers. :wink:
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Re: fallback mode

Postby cwwgateway on Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:42 pm

Wolfen69 wrote:First off, gnome 3 can be made to act very similar to g2 with extensions.

Secondly, am I the only person in the world who doesn't give a rat's @ss about what DE they use? I take pride in being able to adapt to anything thrown my way. I purposely install a new DE (actually I reinstall a different version of ubuntu) every few months just for kicks. I just don't get why people get upset over it. I can be productive using anything, be it lxde, xfce, gnome 3, or whatever. Computers are just tools to get things done. All DE's are good once you get used to them. If it takes you more than an hour or 2 to get used to anything, well, I won't go there.

Btw, my next install will probably be mint, since it's been a while since I've used it. I just keep the same home folder and reinstall root. Makes it easy to try new things. But you'll never hear me complain about any de, I just complain about complainers. :wink:

First off, I tried many extensions when Mint 12 first came out and I had a very nice looking gnome-2-like desktop.

Secondly, I respect that every DE has its pros and cons, and that there are many people who can be productive with each DE. I can use any DE (although I do like to customize it), although I prefer some. The fallback mode is one of the ones I sort of prefer (its kind of in the middle). I am simply pointing out the cons of the fallback mode. I think that there should be an important distinction between pointing out cons (which every DE has) and complaining. Cons/problems and pros that DEs have are crucial to developers and to people who might be considering a DE, as well as for discussion in general.

In the end of the day, as you said, your computer is a tool and you have to use one (or multiple) DEs. Everybody has a DE that is better for them (or likes all of the DEs, as the case may be), and I think that is the great thing about choice in linux.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby Wolfen69 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:54 am

I honestly don't give 2 sh%ts about computers any more. I used to have a computer repair business, was an Ubuntu Member, had over 10,000 posts related to linux. Yada yada. Pffft. I'm done. Computer people are the most insane, self-righteous, I'm so pissed, I can't even think of the words.

Sure, I come here once in a while,......... it's like talking to retards. Live life. Computers don't mean unicorns.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby MALsPa on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:47 am

Wolfen69 wrote:Secondly, am I the only person in the world who doesn't give a rat's @ss about what DE they use? I take pride in being able to adapt to anything thrown my way. I purposely install a new DE (actually I reinstall a different version of ubuntu) every few months just for kicks. I just don't get why people get upset over it. I can be productive using anything, be it lxde, xfce, gnome 3, or whatever. Computers are just tools to get things done. All DE's are good once you get used to them. If it takes you more than an hour or 2 to get used to anything, well, I won't go there.


No, you are not the only one. I agree with you totally on this. Look, I multi-boot several different Linux distros, and log into a different one each day, usually. On any given day, I might be using KDE, GNOME 2, Unity, GNOME Shell, Cinnamon, Xfce, Openbox, Fluxbox, AwesomeWM, or E17. It doesn't matter, it's still Linux underneath.

Sometimes I feel like I"m the only person who isn't tied to any one distro or environment, so I'm kinda glad to see your post.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby linuxviolin on Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:16 pm

Wolfen69 wrote:First off, gnome 3 can be made to act very similar to g2 with extensions.

Secondly, am I the only person in the world who doesn't give a rat's @ss about what DE they use? I take pride in being able to adapt to anything thrown my way. I purposely install a new DE (actually I reinstall a different version of ubuntu) every few months just for kicks. I just don't get why people get upset over it. I can be productive using anything, be it lxde, xfce, gnome 3, or whatever. Computers are just tools to get things done. All DE's are good once you get used to them. If it takes you more than an hour or 2 to get used to anything, well, I won't go there.

Btw, my next install will probably be mint, since it's been a while since I've used it. I just keep the same home folder and reinstall root. Makes it easy to try new things. But you'll never hear me complain about any de, I just complain about complainers. :wink:

I don't completely agree with this, sorry. Every desktop is different and no, everybody can't mandatory adapt and to be productive with all desktops. If I talk about myself, for instance I hate GNOME 3 and, although I tried it some time ago, I can't adapt to it, really. It is so silly, bad, crap etc it is impossible for me to stay with it for a long time without feeling an overwhelming desire to throw the computer out the window! :evil: I can't be productive with this "thing". But, yes, I can adapt to XFCE more or less, less to LXDE, E17 I can't... but for a real use there is just KDE for me, at least currently and even if it is not perfect, far away, and if I except Windows of course. I am not comfortable in the others, to say the least. They are either too buggy, unprofessional and win95 style (e.g. see my posts in this forum on XFCE if you want more), not complete etc.

About the extensions, as I already said, the fact we must use them to have an about decent desktop is another proof, if still need, of the stupidity of GNOME 3. The defaults must be correct, without need for extensions. Period.

Now it's just my opinion. It is obvious that I do not force anyone to follow... :mrgreen: :P :lol:
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Re: fallback mode

Postby KBD47 on Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:45 pm

I set my father-in-law up with Ubuntu 12.04 with gnome-panel/fallback. I think it will be around at least 5 years until Ubuntu support ends. I like it because it is simple, straightforward, and very light weight. Maybe not 100% as good as gnome 2, but pretty close. you just have to remember alt-right-click vs. right-click to get to applets and settings. I don't see it as either crippled or unsupported, at least not in the short term.
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Re: fallback mode

Postby MALsPa on Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:20 am

Sounds like fallback mode might be a good option for a lot of people. I couldn't find anything saying that it's gonna be phased out anytime soon, but maybe someone has a direct link to info about that. As KBD47 said, if you're using Ubuntu 12.04, you've got it for 5 years; it'll be there for a long time in Debian Stable as well. Whether it's better or worse than MATE seems to be a matter of opinion, judging by the replies so far, so I'm thinking that it's at least worth a try for people who really can't stomach GNOME 3. The guy I mentioned in the original post who uses it -- busy person, "power user," works inside SUSE labs, certainly knows a few things about Linux -- seems to be okay with it in openSUSE.

I actually preferred Xfce over GNOME 2, anyway. I hesitate to mention that here because Xfce might be on linuxviolin's crap list. :lol:

I'll have to take a look at fallback mode in Ubuntu 12.04. I still have a Debian Squeeze installation with GNOME 2 here; might be interesting to compare the two and see what other people are seeing.
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