Linux Mint in jeopardy

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xenopeek
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by xenopeek »

samriggs wrote:
dee. wrote: The thing is, Ubuntu now installs intrusive adware on the OS that is turned on by default.
I don't use ubuntu so I don't know about this, but what adware are you talking about exactly?
I'm sure everyone else would want to know about this as well so they can turn it off.
Unity has a thing called "lenses" that basically add search providers to your dash (erm, the menu). So as you type a search term in your dash, not only will it find installed applications but also matching results from these additional search providers. You can also click on the lens' icon in your dash to only search that one lens. One of these lenses searches Amazon.com. Some users have an issue with that, others find it handy, and most I think won't care one way or another. In any case, if you don't like it you can easily disable it in Ubuntu's Privacy settings or remove the lens completely: http://askubuntu.com/a/192270
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MartyMint
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by MartyMint »

dee. wrote:...Ubuntu does not collaborate with the rest of Linux ecosystem. It doesn't contribute to upstream, only uses but never gives back.
Ubuntu has put more "warm bodies in seats" by expanding the general Linux desktop user base that any other distro by far.

You can have all the "clean code" you want, but if nobody is using it...well...
samriggs

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by samriggs »

xenopeek wrote:
samriggs wrote:
dee. wrote: The thing is, Ubuntu now installs intrusive adware on the OS that is turned on by default.
I don't use ubuntu so I don't know about this, but what adware are you talking about exactly?
I'm sure everyone else would want to know about this as well so they can turn it off.
Unity has a thing called "lenses" that basically add search providers to your dash (erm, the menu). So as you type a search term in your dash, not only will it find installed applications but also matching results from these additional search providers. You can also click on the lens' icon in your dash to only search that one lens. One of these lenses searches Amazon.com. Some users have an issue with that, others find it handy, and most I think won't care one way or another. In any case, if you don't like it you can easily disable it in Ubuntu's Privacy settings or remove the lens completely: http://askubuntu.com/a/192270
So it's sort of like linux mint adding search engines in the browser, to hopefully get some revenue so they can use put more time into programming, with the choice that you can change it, like all websites try to make some revenue off of amazon and ads, I really don't see an issue here, we get the software for free, a lot don't contribute but complain about it a lot, and I wasn't go to say this, but if more contributed and pitched in or donated to the cause, then none of this would be needed at all.
Like I said before linux developers/programmers are the least paid in the entire planet (except for a small minority) they spend hours upon hours days upon days trying to bring us the best they can, all for free, if I am doing something for free and the ones using it do nothing but complain and do not pitch in themselves to help out well why I even bother, I would just make it for myself instead, the more free time programmers have to bring us great stuff the better the stuff will be, it's that simple, but they too have mouths to feed like everyone else.
I love linux but one thing I noticed is the biggest complainers usually contribute the least, but that goes for most things in life.
"I want it with no ads, I want it totally free, don't try and make a dime off of me" ok but there's mouths to feed, are you willing to pitch in? silence.................

I'd rather see a great system and let them make some money off of me to continue making a great system and contribute what I can when I can.
Ads means it doesn't come out of your pocket at all but gives the programmers a chance to make a few bucks for the months and years they dedicated to bring us all a great system for free. Compared to other programmers/developers on the planet, linux is in the poor house for the most part (except for a few) for their efforts that we all enjoy using.
I'm thankful for all the people that spend countless hours behind a screen giving us the freedom of choice, which is why I am also picking up C, C++ and python again to even pitch more if I can in my spare time.
I see nothing wrong at all with trying to make a few bucks for their efforts, if the ones that complain about them doing so want to complain (and they will>) let them try and feed their families while putting as much time behind a screen to bring others something great for free only to be complained at :lol:
Ya a lot projects wouldn't last a day.
dee.

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by dee. »

samriggs wrote:
dee. wrote: The thing is, Ubuntu now installs intrusive adware on the OS that is turned on by default.
I don't use ubuntu so I don't know about this, but what adware are you talking about exactly?
I'm sure everyone else would want to know about this as well so they can turn it off.
It's their launcher, you actually get ads in the application launcher. For example, if you click your launcher, which you normally use to launch programs or find files or folders locally, and start typing in the name of some sensitive file on your computer, all your keystrokes will be sent to third parties and their advertisements are displayed in your screen mixed in with local files and programs.
this stunt of Ubuntu will delay the adoption of Wayland for years
Why? just because ubuntu has Mir doesn't mean the makers of wayland can't move on their own creation and make it just as good if not better then Mir, this is saying ubuntu decides the fate of linux almost and it doesn't, wayland has the option to make or break their own creation and to make it good enough for everyone to replace X with just as much as mir does, if everyone is so parnoid about ubuntu then more should learn programming and pitch in with their talents.
What I see is ubuntu almost setting the standard and fate of linux according to all this, when did linux put all it's cards in ubuntu's hands who obviously holds its cards close to the chest.
To be honest what I would love to see is one package manager (makes it easier across the board) then anyone could install from any distro, one replacement of X, that works great, one set of dependencies that works for everything, maybe linux would get some more main stream games happening then and main stream software, although I have all the software I need anyhow and I am not a gamer, but this has been an issue with linux and main stream games especially. Will they package it for all distros? no way.
Is ubunbtu heading the way of Lindows? who knows, this won't be the first time, it won't be the last time either, we have survived it before and we will again, if everyone is worried about Mir and ubuntu taking the dominance in that, then hey learn programming or get more programmers on wayland and make it just as good if not better, problem solved, the same thing they did for libre office when it took over open office and buried it alive.
If mir winds up good then this gives ubuntu the chance to show their cards and give something upstream, it should be interesting either way, necessity has always been the mother of creation. and linux has always come through in times of necessity.
First of all, please use paragraphs.

Second, it's nice and all to think that whoever does the best job succeeds and that more competition is better... which would be true if we were talking about something less crucial to the desktop Linux ecosystem like desktop environments, or irc clients or something. But we're talking about a display server. Currently, the display server for desktop Linux, the one display server that every distro uses, is X. This is good, because it gives the different Linux distros some common ground and makes compatibility and interoperability easy. It means that an application developer can count on there being an X. X however has lots of problems, lots of legacy bloat that we don't need anymore, and a more streamlined and modern display server would be better. That's why we're getting Wayland, it's the best direction to move from X, the best possible successor from X, and many of it developers are X developers who know what works and what doesn't work in X and are able to bring that experience to the table.

So before Mir came along, we had a smooth transition planned for Wayland. The roadmap was clear, every distro was going to move over to Wayland in due course, and we could have a smooth transition with good backwards compatibility, thanks to XWayland (X server running on top of Wayland). Now Mir changes everything, because it makes it so that there are 3 targets to develop for: Mir, Wayland and X. Since both Mir and Wayland will have their compatibility layers for legacy X software, this means that any application developer will have the choice of supporting Mir or Wayland or implementing support for both (which is twice more work) - or, they can just keep on supporting X because that way their application will run on all 3 display servers. Thus, there's a horrible cycle of disinventivizing the transition to Wayland.

This is not even considering, that Ubuntu is placing itself separate from the rest of the desktop Linux ecosystem. They are building walls around themselves. If every other distro moves to Wayland - and the way canonical is building Mir, it very much seems it won't be even possible for other distros to support it (see the KDE main devs blog comments) - then it makes it harder for current big software names to move over to Linux, because they have to decide if they will port their software to Ubuntu or the rest of Linux. In short, Canonical is attempting a power grab here, one that is trying to push down all the other distros, instead of relying on a strong and healthy ecosystem.
samriggs wrote:So it's sort of like linux mint adding search engines in the browser, to hopefully get some revenue so they can use put more time into programming, with the choice that you can change it, like all websites try to make some revenue off of amazon and ads, I really don't see an issue here, we get the software for free,
It's nowhere near the same thing. Search engines are a normal part of a web browser's functionality. All that Mint does is that it configures DuckDuckGo as the default search engine, and adds a small identification code to the search string so that the search engine knows it is getting input from a Mint user. The actual search results are not modified in any way, they're the same results you'd get in any other OS.

What Canonical is doing is putting ads in the operating system itself. Not in a web browser, or any other online tool - in the actual user interface. Mint doesn't give the user ads from its business partners, and doesn't track keystrokes of its users and send them to advertisers. Canonical does and in a very intrusive, annoying way which is turned on by default.

Making money is fine but all ways of making money are not equal. If someone robs a bank, will you just say "oh, but those robbers have to feed their families, so there's no reason to complain"? It's one thing to raise funds for a good cause, but when you turn to unethical and shady practices to do so, then it goes against the very point of using Linux - to get away from those unethical practices. Again, what good is it to beat Microsoft if you become just as bad in the process?
samriggs

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by samriggs »

hmmm your making sense here dee, I didn't know all this.
I didn't know it was grabbing keystrokes, that's one practice I never agreed with (too much crap can happen with that one), by the sounds of it,I thought it was just ads, and even if this can be turned off, keystrokes shouldn't be allowed, just for the fact of what can happen.
First of all, please use paragraphs.
Ya although I spoke english all my life I still have problems with it, the wife teases me about it all the time and says I made up my own language, so forgive my crude typing.
As far as having three ways to go, on that point I agree it should be one, but as usual ubuntu goes it's own way, I agree with you on all this.
I also know the community has always stood together and even when one decides to go there own way and try to dominate like ubuntu is, it usually winds up biting them in the butt in the long run, if there keeping mir for their own and not letting it out, then yup not good, either way I hope it only uses one in the end just for the sake of making it easier for all distros and developers in the end, do I trust ubuntu? Not on your life, is it ok to use as a distro? Sure why not (except the keystroke thing), it looks like they are separating themselves from the rest, especially when unity came out, and a lot of left because of it.
If it's impossible for other distros to use mir, that will be the thing that will bite them in the butt in the end. Not sure about that one, they usually find a way.
I'm all for choice, but when it comes down to certain things, then it should be the same across the board, like mir or wayland, as you said it will drive other main stream away again, like they don't have enough reasons not to make linux software, like package managers another example.
Maybe some more will read this and get into developing and make things right in the end.
will you just say "oh, but those robbers have to feed their families, so there's no reason to complain"?
:lol: ok that one made me laugh, of course not, that's just ridiculous.
but when you turn to unethical and shady practices to do so, then it goes against the very point of using Linux - to get away from those unethical practices. Again, what good is it to beat Microsoft if you become just as bad in the process?

I agree, but who cares about beating microsoft? I could care less about that system either way, I hate it, I never use it, but not against anyone who does, I don't agree with a ton of their practices but most of the world uses them, even though it's open to attacks all the time and cost them an arm and leg, that's their choice, plus as one person said in here
When, or if, Ubuntu gets popular and common place will it not then become the target for the malware morons, and by extension expose everything based on it to the same problems that Windows has?
I guess this has been discussed frequently, but surely it is a distinct possibility.
I like being in the small minority, sometimes safety is definitely not in numbers.
When (big) money gets involved with anything, it dilutes and corrupts it, so be careful what you wish for..... now, where's my roll of tin foil.
I also agree with this, which is why I could care less what goes on with windows as long as it doesn't happen to linux.
It should be interesting to see what happens in the end.
I believe the community, as usual, will come out ahead again, it always has so far as long as everyone pitches in (being the main reason it has done so good so far), when that part stops so will linux more then likely which I never want to see happen.
If wayland is as good as everyone says it is, I'm sure the main distros will pick that over mir and ubuntu will be left on it's own.
craig10x

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by craig10x »

@xenopeek, sam riggs and martymint: a big +1 to you all....
I'm afraid dee will never "get it" :wink: :lol:

It doesn't grab keystrokes...it is simply a search...like as if you searched on amazon for something....it finds items that relate to things you look for on the dash search...sure it shows little images....how else could it display it in the dash? not as text obviously...they are little ad pictures...it's sort of like targeted ads you see on your web browser...works much in the same fashion...

And you can either remove it in the software center in about 1 minute (it's called unity-shopping lens) OR go to privacy and turn off all internet access on the dash completely...so it is a total non issue...frankly if one uses ubuntu and doesn't send an occasional donation, they should leave it on, just to help out the development of ubuntu a bit...

Also, keep in mind this is the dash search only...not when you doing various other activities on your computer within the ubuntu os...
Frankly, i rarely even use the dash search...the best way to use the unity dock is to put all your favorite and most used apps on the dock for quick "1 click" access and then you will only use the search for those rarely used ones...

I (and most people) don't access their FILES from the dash, they go into nautilus directly...

Get it now, dee? (i doubt it) :wink:
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catweazel
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by catweazel »

dee. wrote:First of all, please use paragraphs.
Do you have anything better to do than pass comment on completely unimportant attributes of someone's writing style?

Not everyone is a Tolstoy or Proust.
dee. wrote:This is not even considering, that Ubuntu is placing itself separate from the rest of the desktop Linux ecosystem.
You can't get the language right yourself so you've got no place to correct anyone.
"There is, ultimately, only one truth -- cogito, ergo sum -- everything else is an assumption." - Me, my swansong.
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by catweazel »

dee. wrote:Ubuntu ... doesn't contribute to upstream, only uses but never gives back.
Pfft. Utter rubbish.

Ubuntu makes enormous contributions to upstream, not the least being to Debian. For example:

Bug patches from Ubuntu
Debian bugs tagged by Ubuntu
Banshee
Debian-Installer
Gwibber
Empathy
"There is, ultimately, only one truth -- cogito, ergo sum -- everything else is an assumption." - Me, my swansong.
Brahim Salem

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by Brahim Salem »

catweazel wrote:
dee. wrote:First of all, please use paragraphs.
Do you have anything better to do than pass comment on completely unimportant attributes of someone's writing style?

Not everyone is a Tolstoy or Proust.

Nice one catweazel :lol: :lol: :lol:
craig10x

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by craig10x »

I had my amazon search lens turned off since i make donations to ubuntu....
However, in "honor of dee" i just switched it back on and i think i will leave it on too :D
samriggs

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by samriggs »

:lol: this is turning out to be quite comical <--- hope I spelt quite right :lol:
Thanks for the backup on the paragraph thing, no need though it's not the first time I had that thrown at me, I just laugh at it.
Language has one purpose, for folks to understand what folks say, that pretty much sums it up for my use.
You should hear some of the things I call things you'd write a paragraph on how it's really pronounced :lol:
and I would just laugh as I normally do.

So now it's back to it's not that bad :lol:
ok I'll boil it down to what I think and leave it at that.
Programmers making a living off of giving us something great, good for them, I hope they do and continue to make great stuff for us. I applaud them for it.
Mir, Wayland war I'd rather see one but which one will be determined after the smoke clears and as long as both are open source and can be used by all, great all can make that decision in the end and the developers aren't stupid obviously or linux wouldn't of survived.
Windows being beaten by linux? who the heck cares, I know I don't.
People complaining all the time about systems but never contributing anything but complaints, why are you still here?
Why not help make it what you want it to be instead, it's more productive.
Linux will survive, it has since it began it will well into the future, that's why I don't worry about it too much, I just try and find my own way to help make it better and contribute where I can. It's what kept it going and made it as good as it is and why no overthrow of one distro (if that's what there after) will ever bury it.
I look at open office, lindows as examples and know, naw it just won't happen (bad grammar I know), even if ubuntu went total commercial like some others did, it never stopped the community and it won't, as long as their are those who are willing to create and program it'll always be here :D
Now I'm going to get my tin foil and hide in the closet I think I heard a ufo outside. :shock:
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by catweazel »

craig10x wrote:I had my amazon search lens turned off since i make donations to ubuntu....
However, in "honor of dee" i just switched it back on and i think i will leave it on too :D
I use kubuntu so I don't have lenses to rub dee's nose into it with so I deleted my 570k ad and nefarious site blocking hosts file, installed wine1.5, Internet Exploder 10, the bing toolbar plus 14 other bing add-ons.

<aside>
Anyone know of a way to find the desktop in amongst all these ads?
"There is, ultimately, only one truth -- cogito, ergo sum -- everything else is an assumption." - Me, my swansong.
samriggs

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by samriggs »

Catweazle your gona kill your system there out of spite :lol:
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by catweazel »

samriggs wrote:You should hear some of the things I call things you'd write a paragraph on how it's really pronounced :lol:
Your writing is fine. When faced with someone's lack of finesse with prose I always remind myself that my first wife had no less than 35 ways to spell pumpkin, and not one of them was correct.

pumken
pomkan
pomcan
poncam
pompkun
[...]

I kid thee not.
"There is, ultimately, only one truth -- cogito, ergo sum -- everything else is an assumption." - Me, my swansong.
Brahim Salem

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by Brahim Salem »

catweazel wrote:
samriggs wrote:You should hear some of the things I call things you'd write a paragraph on how it's really pronounced :lol:
Your writing is fine. When faced with someone's lack of finesse with prose I always remind myself that my first wife had no less than 35 ways to spell pumpkin, and not one of them was correct.

pumken
pomkan
pomcan
poncam
pompkun
[...]

I kid thee not.
People have different types of intelligence :D No one is stupid man :D check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_ ... elligences


HOWARD GARDNER'S NINE MULTIPLE INTELLIGENCES

1. Linguistic Intelligence: the capacity to use language to express what's on your mind and to understand other people. Any kind of writer, orator, speaker, lawyer, or other person for whom language is an important stock in trade has great linguistic intelligence.

2. Logical/Mathematical Intelligence: the capacity to understand the underlying principles of some kind of causal system, the way a scientist or a logician does; or to manipulate numbers, quantities, and operations, the way a mathematician does.

3. Musical Rhythmic Intelligence: the capacity to think in music; to be able to hear patterns, recognize them, and perhaps manipulate them. People who have strong musical intelligence don't just remember music easily, they can't get it out of their minds, it's so omnipresent.

4. Bodily/Kinesthetic Intelligence: the capacity to use your whole body or parts of your body (your hands, your fingers, your arms) to solve a problem, make something, or put on some kind of production. The most evident examples are people in athletics or the performing arts, particularly dancing or acting.

5. Spatial Intelligence: the ability to represent the spatial world internally in your mind -- the way a sailor or airplane pilot navigates the large spatial world, or the way a chess player or sculptor represents a more circumscribed spatial world. Spatial intelligence can be used in the arts or in the sciences.

6. Naturalist Intelligence: the ability to discriminate among living things (plants, animals) and sensitivity to other features of the natural world (clouds, rock configurations). This ability was clearly of value in our evolutionary past as hunters, gatherers, and farmers; it continues to be central in such roles as botanist or chef.

7. Intrapersonal Intelligence: having an understanding of yourself; knowing who you are, what you can do, what you want to do, how you react to things, which things to avoid, and which things to gravitate toward. We are drawn to people who have a good understanding of themselves. They tend to know what they can and can't do, and to know where to go if they need help.

8. Interpersonal Intelligence: the ability to understand other people. It's an ability we all need, but is especially important for teachers, clinicians, salespersons, or politicians -- anybody who deals with other people.

9. Existential Intelligence: the ability and proclivity to pose (and ponder) questions about life, death, and ultimate realities.
Last edited by Brahim Salem on Fri May 17, 2013 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by catweazel »

samriggs wrote:People complaining all the time about systems but never contributing anything but complaints, why are you still here?
Why not help make it what you want it to be instead, it's more productive.
Very insightful, and something I agree with wholeheartedly. It can be grating to see people complaining about their suggestions not getting picked up, all the while they whine while being completely witless to the fact that the source code or other resources are all right there for them to fix it themselves. And it's not as if the suggestions are earth-shattering ground-breakers, but more along the lines of "please add a button to do X", which when translated into plain English really means "I'm too lazy to click on the menu then on the option I want! One click too many!"
"There is, ultimately, only one truth -- cogito, ergo sum -- everything else is an assumption." - Me, my swansong.
samriggs

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by samriggs »

Catweazle you always make me laugh in your post, thanks for that.
My wife ( a walking dictionary) just had to look at those ways pumpkin was spelt :lol:
She always kids me about stuff as well, but she knows it don't bother me.
and yup people should contribute instead of complain about it, find a way to try it yourself.
People have different types of intelligence :D No one is stupid man :D
very well put Brahim
I know one man with grade 3 education who is worth millions.
My dad who could not read or write, knew math better then most and knew how to tear apart anything and fix it more then most (including engines) self taught mostly by destroying things to find out how they worked but in the end knew more then most, I also knew some who had education coming out the wazoo and when trying to talk to them they always tried to pick the biggest words in the dictionary to sound intelligent but looked more like fools in the process :lol: I don't even think they knew what they were talking about but hey they sounded smart :lol:
My wife takes care of the dictionary stuff I take care of making her work for that by my mistakes (keeps her in practice) :lol:
craig10x

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by craig10x »

@catweazel: it was easy for me...i only had throw on an "on button" :mrgreen:
more work in kubuntu for that...he he... :wink:

actually, the ads look kind of cute at that...wonder why i didn't leave it on in the first place :lol:
Macmeister

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by Macmeister »

I was worried even before the hiring of the Microsoft guy, as the wheels were already falling off Canonical. My money is on Debian being the future of Mint.
Brahim Salem

Re: Linux Mint in jeopardy

Post by Brahim Salem »

Macmeister wrote:I was worried even before the hiring of the Microsoft guy, as the wheels were already falling off Canonical. My money is on Debian being the future of Mint.
Debian is already part of Mint http://www.linuxmint.com/release.php?id=14 :D
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