reason many will never want Linux in general.

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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby Colonel Schell on Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:18 pm

I'm going to say something rather unkind about the human race, not specifically this group, but everyone on the planet in general: The masses are asses. I heard this in my early teens, and I have observed its truth throughout my life, even when I didn't want it to be.

I think it was Heinlein who said something like, '95% of everything is crap.' (He, or whichever author it was, began by saying that 95% of all science fiction was crap, and, when challenged, enlarged the concept.) I remember the quote, even if I may not be correct about the author, because it changed my life.

Call me elitist, maybe even an elitist snob, but I have always had trouble understanding the choices people make. For me, I think the most Linux can hope for is a more substantial 'market share' and greater general awareness of its existence. I'm fine with that; I just want to have the freedom to use what I want in an OS-- now that I've tasted freedom.

Why do people prefer to pay? Because they believe that money is real. In order to be worth something, it has to cost you money. Dr. Wu, of beloved memory here in Columbus, used to tell his kung fu students, "If you ever decide to teach, charge a lot of money. Americans don't place any value on anything that has no cost associated with it, so if you want them to believe that what you are offering them has any real value, charge the most the local market you are in will allow."

I personally place more value on the development of my mind, so I love learning about Linux. For those who wish to have their minds degenerate into useless mush, there are other options, like buying a laptop preloaded with Windows and just checking their email and watching Hulu. Most people fall somewhere in between, but the majority seem to tend toward the lower end of the scale.

I think Mint is the distro that is a perfect introduction to Linux. But if the many choose to stay with Windows, let them. We will be here for the few.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby DrHu on Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:57 pm

SAHChandler wrote:And i'm not going to lie here. OpenGL is a steaming pile of poo. Seriously. I was waiting for the Object Oriented update with 3.0. Did we get it? No. Honestly if there were a truly open version of DirectX 9.0c I would use it faster than you can say "./configure".

I agree about the "winblows" commentaries, not necessary at all, doesn't prove a thing!

Honestly if there were a truly open version of DirectX 9.0c
Honestly, Microsoft will never allow that to happen; if anyone got close
http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/
    Lastly, we have nothing definitive to report in regards to our support for DirectX 10 based games. As announced in the very beginning, this is a monumental effort and will take a great deal of time to implement properly. We hope to have a fully functioning demo in two months or so
--one patient: the Alky project didn't survive, not surprising considering the amount of cash it would take to prove the software

And i'm not going to lie here. OpenGL is a steaming pile of poo.
I can't agree with that description..
http://newsletters.hagerman.com/newslet ... l60-WP.htm
--it the market force at work, not the underlying technology that apparently mattered most!

http://windowsitpro.com/article/article ... -back.html
    Microsoft claimed that GLQuake ran 1 Frame Per Second (FPS) slower with the DirectX 5.0 version of Direct3D than the original GLQuake on a 3Dfx card (this is the card most GLQuake players use). However, using the nvidia RIVA 128 chip, it runs 1 FPS faster.
--I didn't realize 1FPS was so significant!
    Id CEO Todd Hollenshead is also upset with Microsoft's demonstration.
    "One of the oldest 'spin-doctor' tricks in the books is 'when you can't beat your opponent's argument, simply change the subject.' This is exactly what Microsoft has done in the publicity concerning their conference. It is clearly an attempt to dupe the public and undermine Carmack's credibility by having an 'intern' work on the D3D conversion and then crow about FPS performance while using incomparable hardware.
--that style never ends (that's what does blow about Microsoft..)
I am sure they improved since this directX 3d (1997), but Microsoft does have some OpenGL patents, maybe they thought there was something to it..
http://windowsitpro.com/article/article ... -mind.html
    In June, id's John Carmack and John Romero (creators of DOOM, DOOM II, Quake, and other hit games) were among the leading games developers that signed an open letter to Microsoft begging them to develop OpenGL as a standard Windows 95/NT API for 3D games development. The developers explained that Direct3D, the 3D component of DirectX, was a miserable hack and was very much inferior to OpenGL
--same era, crushing the competition, in this case their own employee..

DirectX history..
http://wapedia.mobi/en/DxDiag
http://news.oreilly.com/2008/08/opengl- ... to-fa.html
    Khronos recently posted an announcement of the long-awaited OpenGL 3.0 specification. Roland Wolters's analysis of the OpenGL 3.0 release is insightful. In particular, an oft-cited comparison is to Microsoft's Direct3D. One theory explains that developers will choose the Direct3D API over OpenGL 3.0, because the former offers more and better features.

    That theory is right in some ways, but it's wrong in more important ways.

    It's right in that choosing Direct3D is an option over OpenGL for Windows applications and XBox games. It's wrong in that Direct3D isn't an option for (most? all?) non-Windows platforms. If you want to use 3D features in a non-Windows, non-XBox program, you either program the card itself directly, or you use OpenGL. It's more or less your only option. (For the wags in the audience, Wine's Direct3D layer isn't an option, as it translates Direct3D calls to OpenGL calls.)

    If you're a graphics card manufacturer, you probably don't care; OpenGL has long allowed vendor-specific extensions. In fact, that's one of the ways OpenGL has evolved.
http://liquidat.wordpress.com/2008/08/1 ... -released/

Alex St John, ex-Microsoft employee
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6156565.html
http://zorful.blogspot.com/2009/08/john ... takes.html
    John Carmack: One thing the D3D/GLQuake demonstration did was draw the lines of battle. Microsoft is always trying to be friendly and put on a good face and saying "We're doing what the ISVs want" and everything. But that's really just a front.

    There's a well-defined agenda that D3D shall rule the universe; OpenGL shall crumble and die. But Microsoft can't quite come out and say that. And I would respect them a hell of a lot more if they actually did, but they're trying to have your cake and eat it too. And it's just not that way.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby dequire on Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:27 am

Katzedecimal wrote:I have to agree with Lantesh and Dutchmaster, it depends on how one defines "easier." For the "average user" (ie Joe/Jane Rube), the one and only thing that makes Windows "easier" is that if something pooches up, he can take it to any fixit shop. To find a fixit shop that speaks Linux, he has to hit the yellow pages - or else learn to fix it himself, which Joe/Jane Rube typically does not want to do.


Well said. There's tremendous money involved in the way the whole system is set up. M$ Certifications, etc., that keep many people directly and indirectly tied to M$'s products. So literally thousands of people have a financial interest in keeping Microsoft firmly where it is. Everyone from MS employees to system VAR's to software designers to the local Best Buy selling you a $200 break/fix warranty on your new Windows computer...

The money is everywhere. Also, let's not forget MS Exchange and Office that keep people enslaved to Windows. The best thing to happen to Linux in a long time is the cloud...It's funny, really, that Linux has a great future ahead of it due to the fact that OS's are becoming transparent. And if you're running in a transparent OS environment, reliability and simplicity are all you need, really.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby dequire on Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:39 am

SAHChandler wrote:...but still a little courtesy never killed anyone. Except you know... people in duels. And whatnot.


I lol'd :lol:
They'll all look at me and say,
Hey look at him! I'll never live that way.
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They're just afraid to change.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby catilley on Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:03 am

Newbies who are fed up with the competition will want Linux. It's just a matter of what distro will run on their machines and being able to comprehend the OS. We had to learn Microsoft, didn't we? We could just as well learn Linux. I'm still learning myself. Don't give up on the first try. Also, there needs to be an aggressive push to get Linux in the schools, especially the elementary and middle levels. That would be a major step in the right direction. It would also empower the minds of students by exercising them. Windows and Mac are "one size fits all" solutions. Linux isn't. There are many distos, one for most anyone. I never had the chance to try it out, but what happened to Linux XP? Looking at the picture, it looked good. Why is it only in the Russian market? I know there was an English one as recent as 2008. If it was as simple as it looked, people would go for it. But if there is any one reason many will never switch, it is this: People are afraid of change. It is as simple as that. This group gets into a comfort zone, and they stay there, no matter what. I'm not part of that group. I like change and the challenges that comes with it. I was always the underdog that people expected nothing of, only to prove them wrong. I love Linux Mint and I'm here to stay!
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby Colonel Schell on Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:28 am

Considering the amount of money Micro$oft pours into keeping their products in schools, it will probably be difficult, nay, impossible to get Open Source into many public school systems.

I think the situation might be different at smaller private schools, such as the one at the local Baptist or Pentecostal Church, and I can think of one within a stone's throw of my house that is Muslim. I'm not sure Micro$oft is working as hard to win their hearts and minds.

There is a small Baptist school in Springfield, Ohio I can think of, and I'm not sure that they even have a computer! If someone donated them the hardware and the software, that would be one way of exposing about 20 children to Linux.

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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby vrkalak on Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:50 pm

A few years ago I taught in a middle school. Many classes were teaching courses that used the computer lab (computer classroom) ... all the systems in that school district were using XP. The children were eager to learn and use the computers.

I took a few courses at the local community college, for and about computers, a couple years back. I did learn a lot about how to use and work with computers
Unfortunately, all the courses, in my field, and every other field I could see -- were given in Windows Vista.
It was very informative but still Windows. When I asked, the professor and the IT specialist, they were not aware that there were Linux OS's for public use.

My sister is on the State School Board . . . and is partially responsible for purchasing. They must comply and stay within the main-frame of the states computer systems for education.
Hence, Windows is deeply rooted.

The up and coming generation of computer users, only know and are taught MS Windows. Linux will only surface when a person is inquiring about 'another/alternative'' Operating System.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby AK Dave on Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:31 pm

SAHChandler wrote:Unless your name is Mark Shuttleworth.


This is common knowledge, so your lack of it is sharply galling, but Ubuntu does not even pay its own bills at this point and certainly doesn't pay Shuttleworth's bills. Shuttleworth was independantly wealthy long before Ubuntu was forked off of Debian, and to date has not reached a break-even point where Canonical runs in the black from year to year. If Shuttleworth were looking for a cash return on an IT investment portfolio, he would have been better advised to buy stock in Microsoft and Apple, instead of launching a red-ink company to "compete" with them.

Please don't spout off in ignorance.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby AK Dave on Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:41 pm

rhY wrote:Other than that, Mint is more reliable, less bloated, has a nicer GUI.....


Linux is getting pretty darn bloated itself. Just the kernel alone is full of cruft and bloat. Doubt me? Ask Linus himself. As he puts it, "unacceptable, but probably unavoidable".
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby optimize me on Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:58 pm

OP hasn't logged in sice Feb. of this year. This thread is creeping up on a year and a half old and it should die.

I mean, I like discussion as much as the next guy, but do we really need another Windows vs. Linux thread? :?
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Postby Martin Rabson on Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:06 pm

test test
Last edited by Martin Rabson on Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby dequire on Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:34 pm

It stays relevant because 99.9 pct of Linux users came from learning Windows. If this were not the case, Linux would have the 80 pct. market share that MS has (or at least more than the 1 pct it currently has...)

By the way, the increased usage of Linux in secondary education will come about when EMPLOYERS ask for people with Linux knowledge. Right now, in a MS world, schools can get away with only teaching computer classes on MS products. They are there to supply what the private and government sectors need. They are not getting asked to supply students with Linux knowledge in large numbers.

For example, aside from a COBAL course, all my CIS classes were MS-based (Access, SQL, VB, etc. etc.). I didn't have a choice. But then again, not one of my (many) employers have ever asked about my knowledge of Linux. Which would have been "zero" at the time.

When the T.C.O. of Linux deployment on the desktop on a large-scale can be proven, this will provide the downward push that represents how free-market societies work. We are here figuring out how to push from the bottom up, which is nearly an impossible task...Aside form making a top-nothch product (which Mint nearly is), that's about all most of us can do.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby Colonel Schell on Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:54 pm

optimize me wrote:OP hasn't logged in sice Feb. of this year. This thread is creeping up on a year and a half old and it should die.

I mean, I like discussion as much as the next guy, but do we really need another Windows vs. Linux thread? :?


I am going to mention Hitler and the **** here, so someone can invoke something akin to Godwin's law, even if this isn't really a debate.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby catilley on Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:14 am

I agree with optimise me, do we really need another Windows vs Linux forum? Aren't there more constructive things to discuss? Like getting the word out about Linux, and Mint in particular? As long as this debate continues, it may be hard to get others to use Linux. I've been spreading the word, but have as of yet to convert anyone. XP will be as far as I will go in Windows. I never knew Vista, and cannot afford (and do not want) Windows 7. If I had to learn another platform, it would be MAC. They, as Linux is, contains no viruses and are stable. But I don't want to go there, as long as I can help it. I love MINT! Get the word out! Make copies of install discs and hand them out. I mean, they can pass out religious pamplets, why cant we pass out Linux distros in public?
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby catilley on Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:14 am

I agree with optimise me, do we really need another Windows vs Linux forum? Aren't there more constructive things to discuss? Like getting the word out about Linux, and Mint in particular? As long as this debate continues, it may be hard to get others to use Linux. I've been spreading the word, but have as of yet to convert anyone. XP will be as far as I will go in Windows. I never knew Vista, and cannot afford (and do not want) Windows 7. If I had to learn another platform, it would be MAC. They, as Linux is, contains no viruses and are stable. But I don't want to go there, as long as I can help it. I love MINT! Get the word out! Make copies of install discs and hand them out. I mean, they can pass out religious pamplets, why cant we pass out Linux distros in public?
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby optimize me on Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:00 am

Colonel Schell wrote:I am going to mention Hitler and the **** here, so someone can invoke something akin to Godwin's law, even if this isn't really a debate.

All that's missing now is someone talking trash about someone else's mother.

I'll pass. Topic unsubscribed.
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby msrourke on Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:39 pm

Colonel Schell wrote:I am going to mention Hitler and the **** here, so someone can invoke something akin to Godwin's law, even if this isn't really a debate.


:lol: Brings back the good old Usenet days, haven't seen a reference to Godwin's in a long time. Lest someone else is offended by Colonel Schell's post....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law his reference was intended to be humorous....
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby Colonel Schell on Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:47 pm

From Wikipedia:

"...It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception")..."

I never knew that.

Will some moderator please lock this thread before someone invokes Quirk's Exception?
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby msrourke on Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:38 pm

Colonel Schell wrote:From Wikipedia:

"...It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful (this is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception")..."

I never knew that.

Will some moderator please lock this thread before someone invokes Quirk's Exception?


30 lashes with wet spaghetti for you... :lol: BTW I know who Godwin is but is there some poor soul named Quirk? :roll:
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Re: reason many will never want Linux in general.

Postby yamawho on Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:58 pm

The distro I have used the longest is Mint xfce 5 ... it does everything I need at home.
I am still using it today :mrgreen:

Installed Mint 7 64bit but could not get the HDMI sound working on my HDTV, gave up and installed windows 7.
I was surprised that media player supports xVid's out of the box.

Just started playing around with Mint 7 64bit on another system today ... looks fresh and clean.

M$ really turned things around in the netbook market, I was sure linux would make big gains on those.
Linux netbooks in stores are very rare indeed ...
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