Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

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Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby AnonKS on Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:41 pm

Well Ubuntu, ya had a good run.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-O ... um=twitter

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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby palo on Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:11 pm

Canonical can do what they want but keep it off my Mint please.

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Edit: Removed swear words.
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby Crewp on Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:18 pm

Never did like Canonical's way of doing things. I hope this does not spread into other open source projects. :cry:
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby samriggs on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:18 am

:o buuurrrppppp!!!!
yup that's about it.
Inching closer and closer, I guess with the downfall of windows 8 etc they had to do something, next will be the price tag for take over.
Never thought I would see the day when a linux site promotes windows. :shock:
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby nomko on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:36 am

Crewp wrote:Never did like Canonical's way of doing things. I hope this does not spread into other open source projects. :cry:


At the beginning they did a marvellous job! And that was bringing Linux to the desktop for the average/novice users by creating an operating system which was easy to install, easy to use, easy to learn, easy to update. While other distro's were busy with things like stability and having the latest packages and security and so on, Canonical found out that the average user isn't really caring for stability or having the latest applications. They found out that the average user only wanted an operating system which was good enough for daily use without getting bothered with irrelevant things the average user doesn't care about. Without Canonical i'm pretty sure that Linux didn't gain more popularity, that other distro's still didn't realized that it's all about the user experience.

But I must agree, since they put in that Amazon lens.... Ubuntu is moving towards the commercial aisle. Doing my shopping using the Amazon lens??? Hell no, I go to a supermarket!
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Postby AnonKS on Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:20 am

Yeah canonical did help to push Linux on to more computers. Hell, there are people out there that don't even know there are other distros!
But over the last couple years, canonical has shown that it's all about the $$.
I stopped telling noob to try Ubuntu when 12.10 came out. I always promote mint or openSUSE for new users now. Shuttleworth is throwing stones in a glass house. Linux users will migrate away from Ubuntu in huge numbers. I'm hoping mint moves away from the Ubuntu base and becomes #1.

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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby palo on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:32 pm

I have to give some praise to Ubuntu for what it was in the past - after all, it was my first introduction to Linux and it was head and shoulders above others in the Distrowatch page rankings back then, but a quick peak now shows that Mint is #1 and Ubuntu #3 with some surprises climbing up its tail.
AnonKS wrote:Well Ubuntu, ya had a good run.


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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby Crewp on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:03 pm

Yes, don't get me wrong, I cut my Linux teeth on Ubuntu. What I should have said was I don't like the direction they have chosen to go.
But I've given up on Ubuntu and have ( after distro hopping a bit ) landed in Mint and I am very happy with it. The Debian based version for me :D
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby craig10x on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:43 pm

Unless you are using LMDE, you are still using ubuntu if you run the regular mint (in modified form)...so quit criticizing...don't bite the hand that feeds you (as it were)...

And as far as commercialism, you have target ads running on the mint forums to get revenue for mint developing...ubuntu is simply doing the same thing, but instead of on the ubuntu forums, it has the shopping lenses...so what? you can turn it off in 5 seconds on ubuntu if you don't want to participate in it...

I only turn mine off because i don't care for the clutter....but if i didn't make separate donations to ubuntu for development (which i do) i'd leave it on just so they could get some revenue from me...

AS far as the windows association...big deal...Canonical is a commercial operation as well as an open source distro...Ubuntu is not going to become windows...and Ubuntu is responsible for more and more newcomers coming over from windows and macs...but you guys don't like to give them any credit...if not for ubuntu, linux would forever remain a computer geek's operating system...Thanks to ubuntu, it has a good chance of becoming more mainstream...and in fact is starting to in many ways...

By the way, did you know that microsoft (for quite some time now) uses mostly linux servers? Well, since microsoft has an association with linux, i guess you will have to leave linux now...so where are you going to? mac? Oh yeah, that's commercial too....no more operating systems for any of you "purists" then... :lol:
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby palo on Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:29 am

craig10x wrote:Unless you are using LMDE, you are still using ubuntu if you run the regular mint (in modified form)...so quit criticizing...don't bite the hand that feeds you (as it were)...

And as far as commercialism, you have target ads running on the mint forums to get revenue for mint developing...ubuntu is simply doing the same thing, but instead of on the ubuntu forums, it has the shopping lenses...so what? you can turn it off in 5 seconds on ubuntu if you don't want to participate in it...

I only turn mine off because i don't care for the clutter....but if i didn't make separate donations to ubuntu for development (which i do) i'd leave it on just so they could get some revenue from me...

AS far as the windows association...big deal...Canonical is a commercial operation as well as an open source distro...Ubuntu is not going to become windows...and Ubuntu is responsible for more and more newcomers coming over from windows and macs...but you guys don't like to give them any credit...if not for ubuntu, linux would forever remain a computer geek's operating system...Thanks to ubuntu, it has a good chance of becoming more mainstream...and in fact is starting to in many ways...

By the way, did you know that microsoft (for quite some time now) uses mostly linux servers? Well, since microsoft has an association with linux, i guess you will have to leave linux now...so where are you going to? mac? Oh yeah, that's commercial too....no more operating systems for any of you "purists" then... :lol:


I am not getting the impression that anyone is not appreciative of Ubuntu and biting that hand that feeds us. For some, the association of Microsoft and Linux is an emotional thing. Although Microsoft has made some contributions to the Linux Kernel, there are some that remember Microsoft's claim that Linux uses it's intellectual property and that they should be compensated for that - yeah just business right?

So this association is like opening an old sore - well it is going to bleed.

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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby craig10x on Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:19 am

I understand what you're saying...though i would imagine that many did not realize that microsoft has been using linux servers for quite some time now...even they recognize the superiority of the linux system...i hope that makes you all feel better :wink:

And a commercial enterprise like Canonical IS very necessary for linux to have a chance of becoming a major player...otherwise, it will never happen...i would sure hate to see linux remain an extremely small, niche...computer geek lovers operating system...So even if one is not in love with everything they do...you have to appreciate what they are doing to promote the growth of linux :)
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby teatime on Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:37 am

Nothing to worry about as Ubuntu is not the first Linux distribution on Windows Azure: SUSE Enterprise and CentOS are already supported. They are offering it as another solution to gain developers and earn money.
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby dee. on Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:39 am

craig10x wrote:Unless you are using LMDE, you are still using ubuntu if you run the regular mint (in modified form)...so quit criticizing...don't bite the hand that feeds you (as it were)...


Just because you're using something doesn't mean you have no right to criticize it. When you start putting things on pedestals, and considering them "holy" or beyond criticism, that's when you cross over to irrational fanboy territory.

Canonical can of course do what they want to their distro, they're under no obligation to do what their users want - but the users are allowed to express their opinion and criticize decisions they don't agree with. In fact, if you like something and want it to succeed, it's better to give them criticism than to just stay quiet, because criticism lets them know there are problems, and gives them an idea what they can do to improve their product.

And as far as commercialism, you have target ads running on the mint forums to get revenue for mint developing...ubuntu is simply doing the same thing, but instead of on the ubuntu forums, it has the shopping lenses...so what? you can turn it off in 5 seconds on ubuntu if you don't want to participate in it...


The shopping lenses were badly executed. The privacy concerns are considerable - things that you type on your dash, the same place you use to search for local files, are being sent to 3rd parties, and that is definitely at least a potential privacy concern.

Also, the shopping lenses are dependent on proprietary server-side code, meaning that it's not possible for the user to be entirely certain how their data is handled, which is also problematic, especially in a post-Snowden world.

Regardless, if the scopes were made opt-in instead of opt-out, I wouldn't have problem with them. It's just another very stupid decision from Canonical: making the lenses opt-in would have been the high road, it would have taken away a lot of the basis for the criticism, and made lots of people more comfortable with the concept. As it is, it's just another thing that ended up costing Canonical money and users.

AS far as the windows association...big deal...Canonical is a commercial operation as well as an open source distro...Ubuntu is not going to become windows...and Ubuntu is responsible for more and more newcomers coming over from windows and macs...but you guys don't like to give them any credit...if not for ubuntu, linux would forever remain a computer geek's operating system...Thanks to ubuntu, it has a good chance of becoming more mainstream...and in fact is starting to in many ways...


This just seems like a bit of a grandiose thing to say. All the Ubuntu fans are always quick to point out how Linux would die a horrible, lonely death without Ubuntu, but is this really true? Certainly Ubuntu has done some good things creating publicity for Linux in the past, but right now... I'm not so sure. Right now, Ubuntu creates publicity for Ubuntu: there are people who come to Ubuntu and don't think of it as migrating to Linux, they think it as migrating to Ubuntu. There are places on the web that give information or tips about "Ubuntu", not about "Linux" - even when the information applies to desktop Linux OS's in general.

Apart from that, Ubuntu seems to be on a campaign to differentiate itself completely from the rest of the Linux ecosystem. Does it matter if we get lots of new Ubuntu users, if Ubuntu ends up being entirely incompatible with every other distro? Does it matter if we get tons of new programs, if they only work on Ubuntu OS, if they are dependent on Mir and other Ubuntu-only software?

Furthermore, I'd argue that there are others that are doing much more to bring people to Linux. Valve and its Steambox certainly has potential to do so in a very real way (and Valve is distancing themselves from Ubuntu to a degree: they have stated that they will not use Mir in the Steambox - which is a sensible decision). Then there's Tizen: if Intel releases their Tizen-based ultrabooks, it's something that would finally bring Linux to the reach of the average consumer, and it would do more for desktop Linux than Ubuntu has ever managed.

By the way, did you know that microsoft (for quite some time now) uses mostly linux servers? Well, since microsoft has an association with linux, i guess you will have to leave linux now...so where are you going to? mac? Oh yeah, that's commercial too....no more operating systems for any of you "purists" then... :lol:


That's a logical fallacy. Microsoft is actively fighting against Linux, they are constantly doing things that are harmful for open source operating systems, they engage in unethical and anti-competitive practices. Just because they supposedly use Linux in some tasks doesn't make them "associated" with it any more than using Linux Mint makes me a kernel developer. Microsoft has contributed to the Linux kernel, yes, in a very minimal way: they were forced to do so, because it turned out they had used GPL-licensed code in their own products. They were forced to contribute to avoid lawsuits. And any further contributions were just to ensure Windows interoperability for cloud solutions.

So don't kid yourself by thinking that Microsoft is suddenly a friend of Linux. That's just the impression they like to give, because they've noticed the trend - they try to openwash themselves because open source is popular now. But underneath the surface, they're still the same bastards they've always been. The same ones who infiltrated Nokia and sold Nokia's patents to patent trolls in order to attack their competition (mainly, open source using companies). The same ones who work closely together with NSA and give NSA early warning of all windows exploits and vulnerabilities.

I don't believe Canonical is up to anything evil, or that they've been bought out by Microsoft or any such thing. But I do think that they ought to be careful with their dealings with the Beast: more than a few companies have gotten their fingers burned by entering a partnership with Microsoft. They're dangerous and untrustworthy, and if Canonical doesn't watch out, they'll end up sharing the fate of Nokia.
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby teatime on Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:24 am

It is fine to be critical but sometimes people do not make a difference between a project and its community and a company. There are some fine people in said community but they do not have any influence at the project as it get dictated from above and I even help people which are on Ubuntu with their problems but that's my choice and I will not help Canonical in participating in their project (also my choice) as I want to get involved in community projects with the goal to support the community in general not a single company. Back to Azure: Microsoft is active working with the linux developers as they want that their Windows Server is hosting various Linux distributions not vice versa - most of today's virtualization is done by Linux and guests are Windows which is bad for them and companies can buy smaller windows server products and another problem is the Internet. Most sites get powered by some linux distribution and web server - it is a cheap and working solution and how many web server hosters offers windows?? Microsoft is selling licences and support of their products and therefore they have to look to get a lot of people back on their OS.
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby craig10x on Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:11 am

@dee: obviously you are not aware of the fact that the information you type into dash search on ubuntu (assuming you leave the online search activated, which you can turn off if you want to) the information is sent INVISIBLY and ANONYMOUSLY to amazon and their server simply responds with some ad suggestions...Amazon has no access to your computer...no one at Amazon can even see what you are doing...

It's similar to the targetted ads you see on the linux mint forums...yet, i don't see you objecting to those...both the "target" ads on mint forums and the shopping lens on ubuntu's dash have the same goal...GENERATE SOME REVENUE TO HELP DEVELOPMENT...

I wasn't going to bother commenting but just had to mention that...since you seem to have some misconceptions on how that works...
And yes, without Ubuntu, Linux would remain a niche operating system used by a very small percentage of computer users...

A lot of people have heard of Ubuntu who never heard of linux....and many people stumble upon ubuntu, are impressed by their site, and get inspired to try ubuntu and then perhaps become part of the overall linux community...Ubuntu IS the AMBASSADOR of linux...deny all you like...the truth will not go away...

It's funny, mint's leader, Clem apparently doesn't have the ubuntu hate that some of you mint users seem to have...if he did, he wouldn't be using is as his work base...apparently, and unlike some of you here, he APPRECIATES ubuntu and what it brings to your mint experience...
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby MartyMint on Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:30 am

craig10x wrote:It's similar to the targetted ads you see on the linux mint forums...yet, i don't see you objected to those...both the traget ads on mint forums and the shopping lens on ubuntu's dash have the same goal...GENERATE SOME REVENUE TO HELP DEVELOPMENT...



It's not my job "generate revenue" for anybody.

Especially by doing Amazon's marketing for free, while some Amazon corporate dirtbag hits the golf course.



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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby teatime on Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:52 am

craig10x wrote:@dee: obviously you are not aware of the fact that the information you type into dash search on ubuntu (assuming you leave the online search activated, which you can turn off if you want to) the information is sent INVISIBLY and ANONYMOUSLY to amazon and their server simply responds with some ad suggestions...Amazon has no access to your computer...no one at Amazon can even see what you are doing...

It's similar to the targetted ads you see on the linux mint forums...yet, i don't see you objected to those...both the traget ads on mint forums and the shopping lens on ubuntu's dash have the same goal...GENERATE SOME REVENUE TO HELP DEVELOPMENT...


A lot of people thought they are surfing the internet anonymously and here is a link about a project how easy it is to generate profiles (you need a lot of data but that should be not a problem for Amazon): http://panopticlick.eff.org/ nobody knows what they are really doing with all this collected information and it is really interesting how big the problem of phoning home in certain distributions got (netstat -t -u -c # for continuos monitoring and netstat -anp # which application use which port) and always it's enabled and working in the background to make everything easier for the user and for profiling purpose to offer the user the best service.
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby trapperjohn on Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:22 am

Fortunately, we have choices, the Mint distro being a good one. Mint LTS releases, even the Ubuntu based flavors, are not tied to evolving Ubuntu releases. It's a fork of 12.04 and it can diverge along its own path -- not re-tooling to new releases on Ubuntu. (Google image search: linux distro family tree.)

Moving towards an advertising platform is a sad metamorphosis but, looking at the CD cover for an ancient copy of Ubuntu 7.04, it has always been up-front about being “community developed, commercially supported.” And, oh well, commercially supported sometimes becomes commercially influenced.

For me, the disturbing transition was their move away from the mission of enabling non-profits and educators in poorer countries, all of whom have throw-away computers that cannot function with the heavy-overheaded, Windows-8-like, eye candy, touch-screeny, Unity desktop. To me, Canonical has also become passively hostile to Unity dissidents... a Windows like notion that “we know what our users want and need, so why listen to them.” Ubuntu is an ancient African work that means “humanity to others.”

All that being said, Ubuntu is a gem. Because of them, Linux is a bigger market target for hardware manufacturers. With luck, new hardware boxes might someday have the penguin and a "Linux Compatile" sticker on them.
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby dee. on Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:25 pm

craig10x wrote:@dee: obviously you are not aware of the fact that the information you type into dash search on ubuntu (assuming you leave the online search activated, which you can turn off if you want to) the information is sent INVISIBLY and ANONYMOUSLY to amazon and their server simply responds with some ad suggestions...Amazon has no access to your computer...no one at Amazon can even see what you are doing...


They say it's sent "invisibly and anonymously"... but, you don't really know that, because the server-side code is proprietary.

Also, you're a bit too naïve in your views about this. Snowden should have been a wakeup call, we can't take privacy issues lightly anymore. Convention on every UI on a home computer ever has taught us that what we type in the launcher stays local. Amazon et al. may not know the exact IP a keyword is coming from, but what guarantee is there that they won't know how to group queries from the same source? We don't know, because, once again, the server-side code is proprietary and closed. Furthermore, let's say you have a file on your computer named "John Quackson's Colon Cancer Report" and you try to search that file through the dash. The entire search term gets sent, and if the search term itself contains private information, it still gets sent. You have to be careful what you type on your own computer, in an interface that is by all convention thought as local by users.

Again, I wouldn't have problem with this if the entire feature was opt-in and well-documented. But as it is, it has some serious privacy implications that aren't instantly obvious to a non-tech-savvy user.

craig10x wrote:It's similar to the targetted ads you see on the linux mint forums...yet, i don't see you objected to those...both the traget ads on mint forums and the shopping lens on ubuntu's dash have the same goal...GENERATE SOME REVENUE TO HELP DEVELOPMENT...


There is no need to shout. No, it is not comparable at all. When I'm on a web browser, it's obvious that I'm connected on the internet. Also no one forces me to go to Linux Mint forums even if I use Linux Mint - it's entirely opt-in. There are no ads in the actual UI in Linux Mint, and it should stay that way. The UI should be for the user's benefit.

craig10x wrote:I wasn't going to bother commenting but just had to mention that...since you seem to have some misconceptions on how that works...


That's very sweet of you, but I have no misconceptions.

And yes, without Ubuntu, Linux would remain a niche operating system used by a very small percentage of computer users...


That's a very arrogant point of view. Do you have some evidence to back up this claim, or is it just a baseless opinion?

Ubuntu has been active for several years, and Linux is still a niche OS on the desktop OS market. Truthfully, Ubuntu hasn't really had that much of an impact on the usage stats of Linux.

As for the future, like I said in my previous post, there are developments which are likely to affect Linux desktop marketshare much more profoundly than Ubuntu ever did.

craig10x wrote:A lot of people have heard of Ubuntu who never heard of linux....and many people stumble upon ubuntu, are impressed by their site, and get inspired to try ubuntu and then perhaps become part of the overall linux community...Ubuntu IS the AMBASSADOR of linux...deny all you like...the truth will not go away...


No... Ubuntu is the ambassador of Ubuntu.

It's funny, mint's leader, Clem apparently doesn't have the ubuntu hate that some of you mint users seem to have...if he did, he wouldn't be using is as his work base...apparently, and unlike some of you here, he APPRECIATES ubuntu and what it brings to your mint experience...


Has someone here expressed "hate" towards Ubuntu? Criticizing something does not equate to "hating" it. Personally I wish only good things for Ubuntu and I hope Canonical succeeds in making Ubuntu a viable platform. But the direction they're going recently is not something that I personally consider a smart move. They're creating an OS that is not compatible with the rest of the ecosystem, they're setting themselves apart form the rest of the Linux ecosystem.

Ubuntu is also making it increasingly difficult to base a distro on them. It's all fun and games now, but what about when they go full-on Mir? Mir only runs Unity, no other DE supports it. Everyone basing on Ubuntu will have to replace the entire stack. The solution offered by Canonical devs? "Just run everything on top of Xmir like we're doing". Oh that's a nice bandaid solution (that causes extra overhead for no gain) but whatabout when other DE's move to Wayland?

No, there's no hate on my part. I criticize Canonical because I hope they will change their direction, because I think their current direction will only lead to their doom. I want to see Canonical succeed, but I don't really see it happening with the way they're currently proceeding. It doesn't take a genius to see that. And don't kid yourself, if Ubuntu dies, it will not kill the Linux desktop. Mint will survive even without Ubuntu. Debian, Fedora, Arch, Opensuse, Sabayon, Mageia, RHEL, Gentoo - all will be unaffected. Intel and their plans with Tizen will be unaffected. Valve's plans with Steambox will be unaffected. And if Intel releases their Tizen ultrabooks, they will increase the desktop Linux marketshare much more than what Ubuntu ever had, because Intel will be able to get them to the reach of average consumers, to regular retail shops all across the world. They have the resources to do that, even if Microsoft whines about it.
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Re: Ubuntu and windows, sitting in a tree...

Postby exploder on Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:45 pm

I find Ubuntu to have a positive effect when it comes to attracting new users. I personally prefer the Ubuntu Developer's taking their own direction even where MIR is concerned. I am not particularly concerned about the web integration in the dash and I think a lot of people are making too much fuss about it. My thinking on MIR is that the Developer's are wanting more control over the graphics stack to make the system work with a variety of devices out of the box.

This is all nothing more than my opinion. Good or bad, I have to give the Developer's credit for trying to do things on their own and trying some new ideas. Like it or not, Ubuntu has caught the attention of manufacturers and game developers. I do agree that if Ubuntu disappeared it would not effect Linux as a whole. I like Unity for the same reasons I like Cinnamon, it's a new twist on what otherwise would be the same old boring thing. I do not think that Ubuntu or Unity have revolutionized Linux but they are catching media attention for more of the right reasons these days.

Imagine trying to build a system that can work across a wide variety of devises, it would certainly be quite a chore. Having an interface that would work on a tiny cell phone screen and then recognize being plugged into a monitor or TV on the fly is quite an accomplishment. Is the Unity interface really that bad? The only feature I wish Unity had was the ability to minimize an application from the launcher icon, that is my only complaint and it is pretty minor really. I know it is possible to modify Unity through the use of a ppa but I would rather stick with what the Developer's have in mind and use it as it is intended to be used.

I do not like seeing Ubuntu criticized for their work anymore than seeing other distributions criticized for their work either. New ideas are advancing Linux and Mint and Ubuntu are certainly presenting new ideas. Mark Shuttleworth has invested his own money and time into Ubuntu and we should be a least a little thankful for that. I do not know how things will turn out with MIR but at least someone is putting forth some effort to try and improve the graphics stack. One of the biggest problems for anyone with Linux is getting their graphics configured properly and just maybe MIR may help in that respect. Even if MIR turns out to be a failure at least it is an honest effort.

The bottom line for me is that distributions like Mint and Ubuntu are doing their own development, thinking for themselves and putting forth their best efforts. Sure, Unity and Cinnamon are not everyones cup of tea but there are enough options for people that want something different. I was never a Ubuntu fan until they started doing things on their own. Ubuntu is not hurting the Linux ecosystem at all with their ideas, instead it encourages Developer's to actually develop on their own. Had Ubuntu not developed Unity then Cinnamon might not have come into existence, so there are good things happening because of Ubuntu's direction changing.

Live and let live. If you really feel that Ubuntu is compromising your privacy just use something else. I am interested in how the web integration will be in the next LTS release. The Developer's are trying to refine the web integration and I think it has real potential.
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