I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

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I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby summerday8 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:12 pm

I write this just to hope that my opinion may contribute to the Linux development.

I'm just about one-week-old in Linux and have tried many distributions including Ubuntu, openSUSE, mandriva, Linux Mint, sidux, mepis, damn small linux, fedora,...........(more than i can remember) with Gnome, KDE, XFCE, fluxbox. It is disappointed to mention none of them is beginner and user friendly. The one closest to the passing line is Linux Mint 5 XFCE (still a lot of aspects to improve). The following worth mentioning:

Do not expect new user to use Command Line. I believe even an expert in MS will face difficulties. Unless Linux is only targeting at the small group of IT professionals instead of the 99% mass users. If every new user has to spend a lot of time to learn the commands (if only and even if they have the time) is a waste of resources. The time saved can be contributed to the world well being. This should be solved and held responsible by the developers (I'm glad that Linux Mint 5 XFCE is heading toward this).

Democracy should prevail. User password usage should depend on the user's need and circumstances. If a computer has trusted users access or only one user access, meaningless time consumed in entering password is a waste of the world resources. In the argument of preventing hacking, this should be counter react by other measures.

In view of stability and number of new distributions, the former should prevail. I noticed that most of the linux developers are racing to release more and newer distributions before really making their current one stable. Personally, i do not appreciated it, somehow i feel that they are falling into a trap. Confidence loss! (couldn't connect to internet, help buttons doesn't work, crashing unexpectedly, chaos web site structure, command not universal, hardware drivers problems,.............................etc).

I'm just an ordinary guy making bakery products for a living. If too much time has to be spent in switching from MS to Linux, I would rather wait for several years later until they become reasonably stable. I have to go and make my cakes now (I wish i can spare more time in learning linux, but if everyone in this world sacrifice their productive time for the learning, the world GDP will go down, in other words, you may not be able to get a cake tomorrow).

Best wishes and respect to the Linux developers (the unsung hero!).
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby GrayWizardLinux on Sat Sep 27, 2008 4:32 pm

I use mint withoug ever using command line. only problem is I cannot use my canon printer to print so i have no print ability.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby badmotor on Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:01 pm

You really should give Mint 5 Elyssa main (gnome) a chance. You must have spent time "learning" Windows once upon a time - as far as I'm concerned, Mint is way more user friendly than Windows ever was. I use it on 2 machines, and I'm pretty sure I've not needed the command line for anything (although it's nothing to be scared of). The benefits of using Linux are too numerous to list here, but a little learning at the start will reap rewards for you.

If you are not sure about certain things, there is vast amounts of online info - and this wonderful forum to help you through. Welcome to Mint, and lets hope we see you around here more often!
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby MALsPa on Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:10 pm

After one week? That's sad that you don't have enough time to learn some things about it. No question the time investment would be worth it. Even learning some things about the command line is worth the effort, even if later you don't use it much. Some things are worth working for.

You have certain expectations and Linux is not going to live up to your expectations. But I don't think that's Linux keeping the New User Away... If you really want to use it, the tools are there.

summerday8 wrote:Democracy should prevail. User password usage should depend on the user's need and circumstances. If a computer has trusted users access or only one user access, meaningless time consumed in entering password is a waste of the world resources. In the argument of preventing hacking, this should be counter react by other measures.


Is it really such a big deal? Waste of the world resources?

summerday8 wrote:I'm just an ordinary guy making bakery products for a living. If too much time has to be spent in switching from MS to Linux, I would rather wait for several years later until they become reasonably stable. I have to go and make my cakes now (I wish i can spare more time in learning linux, but if everyone in this world sacrifice their productive time for the learning, the world GDP will go down, in other words, you may not be able to get a cake tomorrow).


Seems to me that to get something you have to give something. You spend some time learning to use Linux, you'll end up with a lot more time on your hands down the road than if you stuck with Windows. At least that's what happened here, so the initial time investment has paid off. My two cents.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby Paul_Vandenberg on Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:21 pm

GrayWizardLinux wrote:I use mint withoug ever using command line. only problem is I cannot use my canon printer to print so i have no print ability.


Have you tried the drivers under http://www.tuboprint.info ? I know they are proprietary, but they work really well.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby exploder on Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:13 pm

summerday8, you are entitled to your opinion and I will not try to change your mind. I find your reasoning interesting and realize that not everyone is a Linux fan. I will give you credit for at least trying various distributions. One thing you need to keep in mind is that Linux is not Windows, it is comparing apples to oranges. I agree with you that some distributions are released too quickly and with obvious bugs present. A common rule of thumb on the Ubuntu forum is to wait about three months after a release to ensure a good experience. This is the price we pay for advancement, it can be frustrating but with a little patience everything usually works out alright in the end. Vista and the Mac OS were released with their fair share of bugs and imperfections too! Keep your eye on LinuxMint, I have a feeling that in the not so distant future it will be the norm and people will be asking why Windows is so difficult to use.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby xnef1025 on Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:45 pm

The funny thing is, any given decent Linux distro is truly not any more difficult to setup the first time than Windows XP, and can often be easier. Windows only seems easier because it usually comes on the system fully installed.

For example: I recently bought a new Intel Core 2 Duo desktop. Asus motherboard, NVidia graphics card, SATA harddrive, D-Link USB wireless network adapter. I did not have Windows pre-installed. If I take a stock Windows XP disk and install it, after 40 minutes I will have a system that does not recognize my on board sound, video card, USB network adapter, or my onboard ethernet. So I would still need to install all these drivers manually, rebooting after each one. The system would also not play purchased DVDs or have any decent disc burning tools installed. I would have to install the necessary software myself. K-Lite codec pack and Imgburn are my choices, but Joe Average Computer User is probably going to install Power/Win DVD and Nero, both of which need reboots again. Finally after all that installation time and 5 or 6 reboots, I have the basic programs installed... except office.... and security(afterall, 99% of viruses are written for Windows, so an AV program is a must have... oops... another reboot). Total setup time: 1.5 - 2 hours.(Vista is a bit better at the hardware detection, only missing the wireless USB and the graphics card, but the installation itself takes 1.5 hours so you don't really gain anything.)

How about Linux Mint? Pop in the LiveCD. Wait for boot up. Run the instllation. About 20 minutes later, reboot and everything is working, except wireless and my graphic card driver. Wireless is probably the biggest headache for any distro, but in my case I'm pretty lucky. Mint already has a quick way to take my windows driver and use it to get connected, and there's no reboot required for that. Load the driver, sign onto the network, and it's done forever. Now that I have Internet, start up Envy and install my NVidia driver, and reboot once. Done. Office, codecs and burning software are already installed since it's Mint. AV software is optional since the number of Linux viruses out there is close enough to zero that I feel secure, and I'm a relatively safe surfer anyway. All this is done without touching the command line once. Total setup time: 35 minutes.

Honestly, while the Linux setup looks good(and in this case is just plain awesome), mileage may vary for everyone. There are still plenty of hardware or manufacturer issues that can turn what should be a quick, painless process, into a battle against demons from cyber hell, but if you have good, branded hardware, you are more likely to have an experience like mine.

And not to be totally biased, because I'm not, Windows installation does have an upside. While it can be a long, drawn out process, it will always be the same long, drawn out process. It's a nice, predictable series of steps thanks to the MS monopoly.

As far as the release race goes, it's not just the developers that should take the blame there. Users have gotten to the point where they feel that if the software is available to them, then it's a final bug free release. They forget that that isn't even true with proprietary programs, let alone continually advancing, community driven open source programs. Use the same rule for software as for cars: Wait until the second or third model year before you buy a new model. It takes that long to shake the problems out.

Also, things are very competitive right now. More so than ever before. Microsoft's misstep with Vista caused a very big hole to open up. Apple stepped in to fill some of it, but there's still plenty of room for Linux to take up too. Commercially minded developers are scrambling like mad to get the latest and greatest things into their products and clean them up later in an attempt to beat Windows 7. When Goliath stubs his toe, all the would be Davids wants to get the best vantage point for their slings.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby Fred on Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:12 am

Once upon a time there was a baker. He had spent many years making bread cakes at a particular bread factory. He had become reasonably proficient at his job and was happy with his work.

The bread factory that he worked at was having problems however. It seems the quality of the bread this factory made was not as high as that of a small shop on the other side of town. Even though the small shop had been in business for many many years, it had never been as popular as the big factory that he worked for. The big factory had slick marketing and lots of financial backing and had dominated the market. The small shop never really cared about being the biggest. It had always concentrated on being the best. The bakers there took much pride in their work. They were constantly looking for ways to make their bread better. This little shop had long been recognized by true bread connoisseurs as producing the best quality products available.

This baker, for unspecified personal reasons, was looking for a change in his work situation. After he gave a cursory look at how this smaller shop made several of its products, he was a bit confused. The way they made their bake goods was not the way he had learned at his other place of employment. Taking this job would mean he would no longer be proficient and comfortable with his work. He would once again be a novice with much learning to do.

He discussed the possible move to the smaller shop with the bakers there and expressed his misgivings about the job. He told them that the way they made bread was not the way he had always done it. He said it would be too hard for him and his peers at the other bread factory to learn a new, though better, way. That he and his peers at the factory would probably not be interested in employment at the smaller shop unless they changed their ways and did it like the larger factory did it. He was too busy/lazy, too old/young, smart/dumb, too proficient/illiterate, too comfortable/brainwashed to be bothered with learning a new way of doing things. Therefore the smaller shop should change their ways to accommodate him and his peers.

My question to you is. What should the response from the bakers at the small shop be to this new baker looking for a change?

Enjoy life, it is too short to waste time doing otherwise. :-)

Fred
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and each time expecting a different result.

Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on the menu. Liberty is an armed lamb protesting the electoral outcome. A Republic negates the need for an armed protest.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby GrayWizardLinux on Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:57 am

That was Beautiful Fred!!!!

Thanks for the info Paul. I will look into this. Need to find the US price.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby linuxviolin on Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:26 pm

summerday8 , I agree with you on some points (e.g the 6 months release cycle is absolutely silly and bad!) but disagree on other points (e.g about your "problem" with the password)

I will not make a great essay here but when you started using a computer, probably with Windows, I assume that everything was not so easy and that you needed time to master it? So why not for Linux? Being accustomed to Windows you are in unknown territory and thus more or less lost. It's a bit like learning a new language. I am French and if I try, for example, German then I will take some time to learn and master this language. Once done, I'll find it simple and I will have no more problems...

Linux is not Windows, so try, learn, use it for a few (more than one week, it is too short to really know what "the beast" has in the belly :lol: And in one week you have tried "many distributions"? My God! I'm sorry but it's crazy! Rather e.g choose ONE distribution and try it for one MONTH. This would be a much better idea) and then maybe criticize... :) (no offense)

Just a last thing. For me Linux is not really ready for the desktop and the year of Linux is not yet come (if it ever happens), contrary to what we hear or read sometimes. I like and use Linux almost exclusively but I guess that Linux is perhaps/probably not for everyone, and perhaps/probably fortunately :roll:
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby LinuxForever on Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:30 am

Summerday8 I understand how you feel. You just want an OS you can just install and use. Me too. I discovered linux in 1998 and felt it wasn't ready to take on the big boys. Ten years on it's still no Mac OS nor windbloz. It might not be fully point-n-click for another 10 years.

I do a lot of digital art work. With Mac OS and windblozs I had to frequently reboot. With the Mac it was for memory issues. With windbolzs it was the blue screen of death every 5 minutes. Linux is the only OS I've found that can take anything I can throw at it without running away for cover. It's free and so is the software and I can do everything with linux I did with the Mac and windoblozs.

It's worth the time it takes to learn how to use linux. Mint 5 and KDE make using linux easy compared to all the other distros I've tried over the last 15 months.

Because you are a baker you might be interested in these programs in Adept Manager.

AnyMeal is a Linux recipe database software developed using MySQL and XML. It can manage a cookbook with more than 100,000 recipes, thereby allowing to search, display, edit, import and export them. AnyMeal is designed to be lean and flexible

Krecipes is a KDE application designed to manage recipes. It can help you to do your shopping list, search through your recipes to find what you can do with available ingredients and a diet helper. It can also import or export recipes from files in various format (eg RecipeML or Meal-Master) or from databases.

Kmymoney2: KMyMoney is the Personal Finance Manager for KDE. It operates similar to MS-Money and Quicken, supports different account types, categorisation of expenses, QIF import/export, multiple currencies and initial online banking support.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby Fred on Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:19 pm

LinuxForever wrote:
Summerday8 I understand how you feel. You just want an OS you can just install and use. Me too. I discovered linux in 1998 and felt it wasn't ready to take on the big boys.


Let's look at this on a more even playing field a bit closer. Try installing Linux, Windows and Mac OSs, out of the box, onto a given piece of generic equipment. Then tell me with a straight face which comes the closest to "just install and use." You will most likely find that neither the Windows nor the Mac install will even function correctly without hunting down firmware and drivers and installing and configuring them. Then you will still have to purchase additional software to do the common tasks that most expect from a desktop. And don't forget finding and downloading all the codecs and misc. players for multi-media too. After several hours, even for an experienced installer, and several hundred more dollars over and above the cost of the OS itself, you will have a functioning bare bones system, maybe.

Contrast that with your linux install which takes less than a half hour, beginning to end, and comes with all the software most people would need. Basic drivers and firmware are on the live cd and are, for the most part, installed automatically for you. By-the-way, when was the last time you booted up your live Windows cd to check it out before you installed? Or when was the last time you installed Windows and had it automatically set up a dual boot with your favorite Linux distro?

Now what is this about, just install and use?

Ten years on it's still no Mac OS nor windbloz.

Be thankful for small favors. :-)

It might not be fully point-n-click for another 10 years.

I hope it is never fully point-and-click. The CLI is a very powerful feature. To give it up would not in any way be a plus, but a giant step backward. Both GUI's and text on a CLI have their uses. You can do some things from the CLI with a line of text much faster and more efficiently than from a GUI. In fact there are many things that you can't, and won't ever be able to do from a GUI that are relatively easy from the CLI.

A picture may be worth a thousand words, but there are good reasons why modern man developed written text languages and learned to read and write text. To abandon the written word and go back to expressing one's self and communicating through pictures/GUI's alone? Doesn't sound like progress to me.

Fred
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby LinuxForever on Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:57 pm

Fred progress for someone new to linux would be not having to learn 1,000 unix commands just to use linux. People are used to push button everything today and linux needs to be the same way to compete if it wants to. Can you imagine how many cars Ford or GM would sell if everyone had to learn unix commands to use their car? Or having to learn 1,000 unix commands to use a cell phone or a microwave oven or a DVD player or a Mac computer? They just push buttons or click a mouse and it all works.

The CLI will always be there. It's never going away. But most people never use it in mac and windblozs and most avoid it in linux. FreeBSD is different. PC-BSD is becoming more like linux because most people don't use FreeBSD because they have to use the CLI so much.

At the end of the day none of this point-n-click vs CLI doesn't matter. I've read posts where people say they don't want linux to become as big as Mac and windblozs. They want it to stay small and free and mostly for nerds.

I agree with you in one way though. The more a person learns in life about everything, the better off they are. So, I downloaded the LFS book so I can learn about linux from the ground up. I though about starting with Slackware, but I think I'll learn more and learn faster with LFS. Do you think starting with LFS is better than starting with Slackware to learn all about linux?
Last edited by LinuxForever on Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby sarahmarienc on Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:24 pm

summerday8 wrote:I write this just to hope that my opinion may contribute to the Linux development.

I'm just about one-week-old in Linux and have tried many distributions including Ubuntu, openSUSE, mandriva, Linux Mint, sidux, mepis, damn small linux, fedora,...........(more than i can remember) with Gnome, KDE, XFCE, fluxbox. It is disappointed to mention none of them is beginner and user friendly. The one closest to the passing line is Linux Mint 5 XFCE (still a lot of aspects to improve). The following worth mentioning:


I've only been around linux for about 3-4 weeks. I cannot understand how you could have tried out so many different distros in one week. That's almost like suicide. To learn something well, give it a fair shake, and become familiar enough with it to give a good judgment of it one needs to have learned more than you could have possibly learned in one week "test-driving" so many distros. In my book it's like going to a car lot picking out ten cars, taking each for a 5 minute drive and then picking one based on that 5 minute drive. You probably won't get a fair estimation of what you just bought. And had you put more time into it you probably would have come out with the better choice. Just my two cents worth. I've tried Ubuntu for 2-3 weeks. Now I'm using Mint. The reason I switched was because I was having some issues with some multimedia stuff. Well Mint resolved that for me. I have no plans of switching again.

summerday8 wrote:Do not expect new user to use Command Line. I believe even an expert in MS will face difficulties. Unless Linux is only targeting at the small group of IT professionals instead of the 99% mass users. If every new user has to spend a lot of time to learn the commands (if only and even if they have the time) is a waste of resources. The time saved can be contributed to the world well being. This should be solved and held responsible by the developers (I'm glad that Linux Mint 5 XFCE is heading toward this).


I have to admit that as a new user command line was a bit overwhelming when I needed to use it on Ubuntu. But I also believe that learning a new operating system requires a willingness to learn a new way of doing things. As someone earlier said, the command line is very powerful and should not be done away with. No it's not very comfortable for new users but it's like wearing in a new pair of shoes. The first few days the shoes are stiff and almost painful but the more you wear them the more comfortable they become. It is possible for users (new and old) to learn how to use the command line if they want/need to. For me, it is interesting and I love learning. Using Linux as a former Windows person already puts me on a learning curve anyway. I do not believe it is a waste of time. Do you need it all the time? NO. But it should definitely be available for when you do need it.

summerday8 wrote:Democracy should prevail. User password usage should depend on the user's need and circumstances. If a computer has trusted users access or only one user access, meaningless time consumed in entering password is a waste of the world resources. In the argument of preventing hacking, this should be counter react by other measures.


Unless you set it up incorrectly you only need your password to log-in or for administrative settings. I think I've had to use my password and such a handful of times (at the most) within any given session. It takes maybe 1 minute.

summerday8 wrote:In view of stability and number of new distributions, the former should prevail. I noticed that most of the linux developers are racing to release more and newer distributions before really making their current one stable. Personally, i do not appreciated it, somehow i feel that they are falling into a trap. Confidence loss! (couldn't connect to internet, help buttons doesn't work, crashing unexpectedly, chaos web site structure, command not universal, hardware drivers problems,.............................etc).


I do agree that stability should be the standard and I believe that most distributions do try to keep their systems stable. Of course errors and bugs happen. And when compared with Microsofts number of errors, bugs, supposed fixes; I really see a great advantage to using Linux here.

summerday8 wrote:I'm just an ordinary guy making bakery products for a living. If too much time has to be spent in switching from MS to Linux, I would rather wait for several years later until they become reasonably stable. I have to go and make my cakes now (I wish i can spare more time in learning linux, but if everyone in this world sacrifice their productive time for the learning, the world GDP will go down, in other words, you may not be able to get a cake tomorrow).

Best wishes and respect to the Linux developers (the unsung hero!).


I don't know your situation but I don't even have MS on my computer anymore because Vista crashed it so badly that I cannot reinstall. No switching back and forth for me. And because I'm just a home user I haven't found anything that I cannot run on Linux that I could on Windows.

And like a few others mentioned, when you first used Windows you had to learn that too. I don't see how learning to use Linux would be any different in that regard except that once you learn it you've got this great big reward and ability that the average computer user won't have. Sounds like a good thing to me :)

Hope you'll give Linux a fair shake. Find a distro you like and stick with it for a few months. See how it does in the long-run. If you do that, it may just surprise you (in a good way) Best of luck in your baking business.

Sarah
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby Katzedecimal on Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:14 pm

I've stayed away from this thread because it sounds like such a troll -- honestly, all that distro-hopping in one week? Then a litany of complaints that are pretty darned generic and sound copped off of any Linux-hater's site? -- please :roll: If this isn't an outright troll, it's certainly someone who didn't put even a ten-minute Google's worth of research into what they were getting into. If you want your comp to do everything for you, wipe your nose and powder your bum, save up your pennies and buy a Mac -- that's what they're there for.

Posts like this are why I decided that my role as the "I did it, you can too!" ra-ra grrl n00b was justified and necessary. It's why I gave Sarah a set of pom-poms so she can join me on the Mint n00b ra-ra squad :mrgreen: Sarah, you're exactly correct, the mindset is the all-important factor. I like that you compare distro-hopping to test-driving cars, I too use cars as a metaphor. If Windows is an automatic, then Linux is a standard. It takes a little more effort to learn to drive, but in the end, you have more control over your vehicle and it squeezes more power out of the engine. But Linux occasionally entails we pop the hood and get our hands dirty in the engine, learn how to change our own oil and air filters. This is why I don't pimp Linux to everybody, but only to people I know actually want to learn to control their computer, people like myself and Sarah. Such people have a very good experience with Mint.

I normally try to be very positive and enthusiastic with n00bs, because I am one myself. But clusers try my patience, I'm sorry :evil:
"Dance without sleeping, I'll dance without fear
Dance without senses, no message I hear
Dance without feeling, I'll dance 'til I'm numb
Dance 'til I think I can overcome" -- Melissa Etheridge
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby exploder on Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:19 pm

There are a lot of really great points made in this thread. I am amazed at how a thread that started out like it did could become such an interesting discussion! It appears that Linux user's are very good at expressing themselves with written language. Must be from our use of the command line! :mrgreen:
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby sarahmarienc on Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:20 am

Katzedecimal wrote:I've stayed away from this thread because it sounds like such a troll -- honestly, all that distro-hopping in one week? Then a litany of complaints that are pretty darned generic and sound copped off of any Linux-hater's site? -- please :roll: If this isn't an outright troll, it's certainly someone who didn't put even a ten-minute Google's worth of research into what they were getting into. If you want your comp to do everything for you, wipe your nose and powder your bum, save up your pennies and buy a Mac -- that's what they're there for.

Posts like this are why I decided that my role as the "I did it, you can too!" ra-ra grrl n00b was justified and necessary. It's why I gave Sarah a set of pom-poms so she can join me on the Mint n00b ra-ra squad :mrgreen: Sarah, you're exactly correct, the mindset is the all-important factor. I like that you compare distro-hopping to test-driving cars, I too use cars as a metaphor. If Windows is an automatic, then Linux is a standard. It takes a little more effort to learn to drive, but in the end, you have more control over your vehicle and it squeezes more power out of the engine. But Linux occasionally entails we pop the hood and get our hands dirty in the engine, learn how to change our own oil and air filters. This is why I don't pimp Linux to everybody, but only to people I know actually want to learn to control their computer, people like myself and Sarah. Such people have a very good experience with Mint.

I normally try to be very positive and enthusiastic with n00bs, because I am one myself. But clusers try my patience, I'm sorry :evil:



Okay I gotta laugh a bit here... Yay for pom=poms AND women who can change the oil in their cars, run their computers, change their flat tires, and fix things around their houses. And YES I CAN!! Do all those things.. and more! But I usually default and let my husband THINK he can do it better than me. Hahahah!!! Well except the computer part, there isn't NO WAY this side of heaven that I'm letting him touch my computer. NOOOOOOOOO!!

WTG Katz! And yah, it tried my patience too but I tried to reel it in and give an honest assessment of the post.
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sarahmarienc
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby kanishka on Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:31 am

I really don't understand where the problems with the CLI are. I mean, I'm a Linux n00b but it's more than a year that I made Linux my main OS, distro-hopping like mad (with a partition always dedicated to Mint, obviously 8) ), and I didn't have to learn many commands. If you don't want to learn them, you don't have; mostly it's just a matter of copy and paste.
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby AK Dave on Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:31 pm

summerday8 wrote:It is disappointed to mention none of them is beginner and user friendly.


Mint and Ubuntu are the most user friendly, but if you're afraid of getting your hands dirty then don't use linux. Its not for everyone, and may not be for you. Its for people who want to break beyond artificial limitations imposed by a software or hardware quasi-monopoly and actually enjoy freedom with the hardware that has already been purchased. Its not for everyone. Some people are very happy with the level of "function" allowed them by their monopolistic "computer experience provider".

The one closest to the passing line is Linux Mint 5 XFCE


Odd, but the traffic on distrowatch.com suggests that a lot of people disagree with your assessment and find something else preferrable.

Do not expect new user to use Command Line.


Do not expect Santa Claus to wear a pink tutu. Do not expect the moon to appear in the shape of a parallelogram.

While some experienced Linux hands can manage to do everything from a GUI interface, the command line is integral to linux.

Consider:
In Windows, the command line is a hidden afterthought that users are not expected to use. At all. Ever. Yet the OS itself is built on a rich history of command line interface. Linux also is built on a rich history of command line interface. Much richer. And for use in a wider variety of circumstances. Including non-windowing environments. Accordingly, a lot of useful stuff for linux is only available from the command line, or is available BEST from the command line with a GUI wrapper being a weaker substitute in many cases.

If you want linux to jump to your specifications, be prepared to fork over a small fortune for people to make it so. Else, run the risk of sounding like a whining troll.

I believe even an expert in MS will face difficulties.


Absolutely. If your entire life has been spent with point-and-click, you could have multiple layers of professional certification in MS products and be a total moron when it comes to linux.

OTOH, I don't have professional certifications in any software. Nor am I an IT professional. I can still sound like a total moron.

If every new user has to spend a lot of time to learn the commands (if only and even if they have the time) is a waste of resources.


Hah! The "command line is a waste of resources" argument. Its a fallacy.

The n00b (you) has to waste the same amount of time to find the solution to his problem, how to do X. But with the commandline the odds are that the solution is already available on his computer. Adding a seperate GUI application for every fiddly little thing means you end up downloading some crapware in addition to wasting time learning how to use it. Linux offers the NON-WASTEFUL solution, being crammed with function instead of bloat.

That you don't know how to use it is irrelevant. The function is available regardless.

There is a crapload of stuff that my AV system at home is capable of. I don't care, as long as I can play movies in awesome resolution with theater-quality surroundsound. But other functions are also available, should I care to learn about them and program radio channels, plug in an iPod, or connect the system to a NAS full of dvd isos.

Democracy should prevail.


Linux isn't a democracy. It is a technocracy. Get over it.

User password usage should depend on the user's need and circumstances.


Oddly enough, most common linux distros (including Mint) allow the password to be permenantly bypassed.

Not surprisingly, anyone with a lick of sense regarding networked computers blasts this idea as the stupidest idea ever. Even Vista is smarter than this.

I noticed that most of the linux developers are racing to release more and newer distributions


Pretty damn cool the level of activity out there that is devoted to development.

Oh, but you don't like this.

I don't care. I like variety.

I'm just an ordinary guy making bakery products for a living.


Cool. If I have any questions about baking pastries, I'll be sure to ask. I won't be so presumptious as to assume to dictate to you how to operate a bakery.

But if I were, I might complain that there are too damn many variety of donuts and the ones at the local grocery store suck. So do the ones from that big nationwide donut chain. The donuts from the bakery up the street from where I live are great, but they too fall into the trap of being too hasty to release new products. Come to think of it, so does the bread store across town that only bakes bread, but doesn't sell the same specialty loafs from week to week. Why can't I buy a loaf of Cinnamon Apple bread this week, but I could last week? They invented Pumpkin Spice bread, and I hate Pumpkin Spice bread because it has nutty little seeds in it and I like chewy little bits of apple. They expect me to pick the seeds out of the bread with tweezers? I don't think so. Knives are dangerous and their bread is sold in big round uncut loafs so I need a sharp serrated knife which could cut me. Their bread is a scam to sell knives. Democracy should rule, and they should know that people want their bread cut for them and the seeds to be optional.

If too much time has to be spent in switching from MS to Linux, I would rather wait for several years later until they become reasonably stable.


Define "stable". In the context of linux, this is usually taken to mean "a locked feature set".

You can have a totally stable linux install at any time you want. Lock it yourself, or use a distro that is stable and locked. Install CentOS and you can leave it alone for years with nothing but security patches. You will, of course, not take advantage of any new developments in software, hardware, or drivers. But thats the price you pay.

Or do you mean "stable" as in "doesn't crash".

Fine, I'll accept that definition. Uptime on my laptop running Mint is typically 20+ days at a time. I rarely shutdown. I use suspend/resume instead. It doesn't crash. Windows crashes, Mint doesn't.

I have to go and make my cakes now


Mmmm!

Can you give me some pointers on how to frost a cake using fondant? It looks so easy on TV. They make cake decoration look easy on TV also, but when I tried it at home there was no point-and-click interface so I actually had to read the instructions. Then I realized that I needed to mix a bunch of stuff up and add the colors myself, put it in a pastry bag, and its a lot harder than writing cursive with a pen.

Look, here's the bottom line of all this: You can PAY SOMEONE to do something for you, or you can LEARN TO DO IT YOURSELF. You pay the price either way, in time or money, and SOMETIMES you have the choice in which currency to use. Linux offers just such an opportunity, so that if you're willing to put forth a little effort on your own you can have a superior product FOR YOUR PURPOSES to what some quasi-monopoly mass produces for GENERIC USE. If you aren't interested in paying someone to do it for you, then don't complain that it is time consuming to learn to do it yourself.

How about this analogy, since you bake cakes.

I want a birthday cake for my kid. Which kid? One of them. Need a cake. My choices: bake it myself, buy one at the grocery store, order from a professional, or buy her a pony.
1. Bake it myself: I need to learn how to use the "command line interface" for baking cakes. I need to get my hands dirty and use manual skills that someone else MIGHT be able to do better (almost certainly can!), but I get the joy of DIY. It might look like crap, but it'll taste like cake. I hope.
2. Grocery store cakes are generic, more expensive than a cake mix box, but they're a known entity. The first advantage is that I don't have to spend much time on this, other than a visit to the grocery store. It'll like a cake, but probably taste like crap.
3. Professional bakeries and cake decorators do a good job, much better than me, and can make a cake like anything I can imagine. Assuming I'm willing to pay enough money for it. I pay more because I'm using a professional's time for a one-off job. I get a cake that looks like a pony, tastes awesome, but I don't have money for a present.
4. Skip the cake. No birthday party. Kids are mentally scarred for life. Divorce is pending. OMG PONIEZ! Marriage is saved; bankruptcy now pending. See also: Wall Street.

Linux offers you options #1 & #3, and the opportunity for you to OJT to become the professional in #3. Windows offers you #2.

[Edit:]Actually, using Windows is more like having a stale Little Debbie snack cake with a candle on it. The cakes from Costco are pretty good (*munch* *munch*).
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Re: I Feel Sad Linux Is Keeping New User Away

Postby GrayWizardLinux on Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:56 am

No Pink Tutu???? Awe Man...... I am disappointed!!! :D :D :D

Mint is much easier to use than Ubuntu. Uuntu has way to many issues and things that do not work. Mint does.
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