pad-thai wrote:I think you're still missing the point. This isn't OJT.
Sure these people don't know how to dig, to use google, to research. That's what the rest of us learned in school, and they didn't. How to dig. How to find out. When I go down to the Chrysler dealership, I want to be able to ask. I don't want them to tell me to RTFM. Computers, automobiles, both are complex systems. Its the same thing.
Excellent conversation. You both depict the two different trends of thought here. I will pipe in and while I completely agree with Fred here that does not male one side right or the other wrong. Just two different points of view.
No for a home desktop, a consumer item Linux should not be treated as OJT. Nor should one have to pour through crypitc man pages that they will not understand. However, what are the options here? If a company is going to sell Linux on their product then they will have to offer some kind of support.
Your next point I completely disagree with and I can almost write a thesis paper on the difference in learning between previous generations and the generation that has come up in the internet age. Up until the serious adoption of the WWW, about the year 1995-2000, we used to have to learn "facts." This has now changed. While we still need to know how to apply facts the key to life is now not knowing facts but finding facts. Why do I need to memorize the preamble to the constitution? I can Google it within seconds. I do not need to know about Vasco de Gama, if he ever comes up I can have his life story at my fingertips in less than a few heartbeats. Need to know how to tie a Windsor knot? Not a problem! The point is these people SHOULD know how to do these searches. Can I fix my Chrysler? Actually, yes, but but the point is can I find out about what is wrong with my Chrysler myself from my home computer? Most likely, and I can even order the new OEM parts I need. If I am not qualified to fix it myself, which I admittedly would not try to do on a newer car, I at least have half a clue when I do take it in to the dealer. It is the information age, it is all about people acquiring knowledge.
I think the problem in the Linux community is that they still think this is CS. Its not. Not anymore, no matter how much they dislike it. Its a complex item that people with no knowledge of the subject want to use. I wish we could cater to those people more. Otherwise, they will end up using Windows, and that's not the best OS they could use. I don't want to scare them away. Its not their responsibility to come to us. Its ours to come to them.
How is it MY responsibility? I dont give a flip what OS they use either!!! I paid my dues brother, I WANTED to learn Linux because I liked what it was. I learned, I joined forums, I read a ton of material, I progressed through trial and error and because Linux is evolving I have to continue to learn new things. THIS IS WHAT LINUX IS ABOUT! Linus never intended it to be a desktop for the masses. It is about freedom and flexibility but freedom comes at a price brother.
pad-thai wrote: Let me put it this way: the next time you have to fix your furnace, or your car, or your phone, don't talk to me unless I feel you are sufficiently motivated to learn the technical details. That's the elitism in the Linux community which everyone seems to be in denial about.
Bull! If you want to fix your furnace, your car or your phone yourself then you should be prepared to learn the technical details. In fact, I do not see how you can possible fix the problem without learning, at least on a basic level, what you are doing. Otherwise either take it to someone, or call someone in, who is an expert and can fix your problem and guarantee their work. Computers are no different. We had a dude in the Fedora forum who was asking about his options to have a custom computer built. So many of us kindly told him to just order a barebones kit and build it himself. He kept insisting he did not want a science project. We tried to explain that it is a simple matter of twisting a screwdriver, that it couldnt be any easier. My 8 year old just built his current computer. Okay, I had to help with the front panel connections, he is still too ham handed at his age. And of course I went behind him to make sure things were solid. But he did it all himself. My point is if you want to get into something like Linux then you should, by extension, be willing to learn. Otherwise, beside your personal dislike for Microsoft, why not use Windows? I use Vista myself, and I like it. It is a great OS. It is fully supported, any computer shop can fix things if I cannot, programs are designed to run on Windows, devices are designed to work with Windows, and the whole world runs Windows making it THE compatible OS. I am sorry, from the standpoint of someone who will not bother to learn to utilize the advantages of using Linux they might as well use Windows. It is the better OS for them, the only advantage Linux has is it is free, but if you cannot use it then what is the point. Elitist? Bologna! realistic!
I expected something different from Linux because that's what they told me to expect. Then when the going got tough, the Linux community backed off and covered their ass. I have no respect for that.
Covered my ass? From what? Are you going to fire me? I work for nobody! Linux is a hobby. It is for most of us home desktop users. Are we an elite community? Sure, we walked through the fire, faced the learning curve and learned how to use this OS! You bet! Some of us are better than others, some are satisfied with just a very basic knowledge. But Linux is unsupported, we have to provide our own support. Let me tell you something, I am through with trying to spoon feed people. I spent the last 5 years in the Fedora forum, under the handle JN4OldSchool, helping others. I enjoyed my time, I learned and I gave back. But see how many I have helped in here. I admit it, I am done. I am here to BS, to discuss ideas. I will drop a quick post if I know an answer, but I no longer go out of my way. Why? Because the answers already exist and they are getting very easy to find. Google IS your friend, and the first step is RTFM. If you cannot be bothered then why should I? If someone wants to offer me a job, on a commission basis, for sitting here answering stupid noob questions that the answer could be found in the wiki then I am all ears! Otherwise, I owe you nothing. I will help when I can and when I feel motivated because that is the spirit of the community, but even though the OS is free you do not get something for nothing.